| [ Total Views: 2866 | Total Replies: 34 | Thread Id: 59459 ] |
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 MattY-64
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 12:59 PM |
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Engine - which way should I go
I am very close to finishing of my bug, however I have reached a wall, the engine. Currently I have a 1200 40hp motor which i am looking to rebuild
and turbo.
However I am getting slack and kinda want to get this project done and in the bag so that I can get some stuff finished off around the house and get
the missus off my back.
So far I figure that I Have three options:
Type 1, Type 4 or a 'Subi or Rotary conversion'
I am trying to work out the bang for buck here and as such I have been trolling the forum engine sales and ofcourse ebay for anything that looks
reasonable that doesn't require me to sell the house to do up.
So far I have seen a few type 4 engines out of kombi campers and the such. I figure that I can swap the cooling tin over to a sharp built, however I
am wondering with this change do I have to perform any modifications to the inside of the engine bay. I currently have all rubbers in and it is
painted up, so I don't won't the have to rip this all out and start hacking up the metal work.
Does a type 4 match up to a 12V converted 1200 trans and box? or is an adaptor plate required? I understand that the box is probably not going to take
the power upgrade but i plan to upgrade it done the track, when i get some more funds together.
Type 1 engines - what am i looking at here, I know that i really don't want to go for anything below a 1600 dp but 0-1000 bucks doesn't really get
you much here, i.e. nothing that doesn't require an overhaul of some kind. However if i can get to some wreckers etc I could probably get it going
for under 2K.
Sub and rotary conversions - I understand that the rotary is the only engine that will fit without changing the body, however I still need to mount a
radiator and i understand that it will not work efficently mounted under the rear seat over the trans & box, where i planned.
And it is more than likely that the box wouldn't handle the power anyways so i don't think that this is going to be a good option for the imediate
time.
I was thinking of going type 1 1600dp with mega squirt and turbo setup - i have heard good things about these setups.
I have a very small snail turbo and i am pretty sure the mega squire is around 350 from the state unassembled.
Anyways just seeking some advice i suppose and if anyone has an engine sitting around collecting dust, my ears are open....
Cheers Matt.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 02:31 PM |
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type 1 hipo = exy
type 4 hipo = more exy
NA subie = less exy than type 1 or 4 if you want more than 120hp.
turbo subie = less exy than type 1/4 in the motor department but more exy in the gearbox department
rotor = more exy than subie. Also, do you know if you can fit a 13b. I would have thought a 12a NA motor would be the limit in QLD. And the 12as are
hard to come by as import motors.
The cheapest thing you can put in is a stock 1600 dualport. The more power you want, the more it will cost exponentially, and the less time it will
last.
I think (stressing IMHO) the next cheapest option hipo wise is an EJ22 subie.
Depends whether you want to stay aircooled or not. Aircooled is simpler in some ways and mechanics know how to fix it. Subie is better for just about
everything else, but no mechanic (bar the installer) will want to touch it. Also, the whole issue of engineering gets a little more tricky with
conversions. Not hard, but just a bit more tricky is all.
I've had a few 1640s and now have a 2.5l Subaru powered buggy. The subaru runs better, tunes itself, is a breaze to diagnoze and puts out lots of
power. However, modding it past stock is expensive. VW motors are a lot lighter and easier to develop slowly, but more expensive and yield less power.
There's no right or wrong, just two very different options. I also bet, whatever you choose you'll wish you had one from the other camp too, coz
I'd also love to own a stroker with IDAs, even though I know my engine is more modern and more reliable.
old school cool VS new school cool 
Who can say what's better?!
[ Edited on 10-1-07 by pete wood ]
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xornge666x
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 02:41 PM |
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I would suggest working out your budget first, and then weighing up what you want to spend.
Rebuld and turbo for a 1200???
There is a lot of combinations that are possible, mostly dependant on what you want to do with the car, and how much you wish to spend.
Just beware that buying a type 4 engine is the CHEAP part of the conversion. Rotary probably more so, + engineering...
Sharp built kits will seal up on the engine bay seal, once you eventually get all the extras that didnt come with the 'complete kit'. Expect to
spend at least another $1000 on upright bits, + alternator + exhaust after the engine.
If I were you, id buy a good running 1600tp, make it look pretty, and enjoy the car while you fix the house/wife, and then decide how much she has
left to spend on your engine....
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 02:48 PM |
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A 1600 in a 1200 box will scream off the mark.
A 1600 with fully merged exhaust & twin IDFs will MOOVE.
You will do that for $2k
Do that then consider your options.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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cram
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 02:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
A 1600 in a 1200 box will scream off the mark.
A 1600 with fully merged exhaust & twin IDFs will MOOVE.
You will do that for $2k
Do that then consider your options.
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Throw in an engle 110 and clean up the stock heads (port/polish, single HD springs and stock valves, rockers and PR) and you're laughing.
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Jeza
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 06:51 PM |
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Hi Matt
I thought I'd add a bit here because it is something I have spent way too much time considering.
I reckon the first decision to be made it what do you actually want your car to do and what are you building it for? A weekend circuit racer vs sunny
day cruiser etc... once you've decided this you can look at your budget and then crawl off to a corner and weep 
Except for fitting up a stocker, which ever way you go its going to have troubles of some sort and cost probably twice what you had planned.
I'm currently fitting a T4 into my 1302 using the Sharpbuild T1 style fiberglass cylinder covers and an aftermarket 36 horse shroud. I'm doing
basically all the rest of the mods to the parts that are required to make the cooling fit. Its not quite as easy as I had hoped, although I'm sure
if you're a sheetmetal worker by trade this sort of stuff is all in a days work.
I suspect that this is very unlikely to be the last engine in the car, but hopefully it will satisfy the power thirst for now. I would imagine that
is likely to be the same for yourself, unless you decide to sell up sometime in the future. So from that perspective you could find a good 1600,
track down some 36 webers or Dells off an old Alfa and fit up a decent exhaust. Then put the pennies away for the dream motor... and deciding on that
still won't be easy!
I agree will Petes comments, I'd be keen to fit up a Subi, but then I'd also love a Turbo EFI Type 4. The money will no doubt dictate the end
result and lack of time at the moment is dictating the quickest result.
One note is that the SOHC subi's don't really require much (or any) cutting to fit up, especially if you turn the inlet manifold around or use the
custom off road throttle body inverter.
Best of luck with the decision making!
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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 barls
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 07:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
type 1 hipo = exy
type 4 hipo = more exy
[ Edited on 10-1-07 by pete wood ]
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why go hipo on the t4 if you dont need to i got the stock 2L, and have driven it in both the stock form and with a mild cam and it has more than
enough power to handle most thing and with the right gear box it will just run and run all day
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lobus
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 07:17 PM |
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Donk will fit like a glove
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=59485
[ Edited on 11-1-2007 by lobus ]
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barls
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 07:23 PM |
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i forgot to mention the t4 fits in the engine bay of most bugs easily
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RENNWAGEN
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 08:06 PM |
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Is your bug swing axle? I wouldn't ever consider a turbo subi or rotary in a swing axle car.
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THUDKNUCKLE
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 08:40 PM |
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if you go rotary a 13 b injected will not fit without slightly bloxing out the rear fire wall a bit to allow room for the injection system ( this is
shown in my webpage ) also if you go mazda injection you will need a full aftermaket computer system to run the engine otherwise you will need to have
an entire mazda dash wired up in your bug .. ( can be very expensive,, i overlooked this when i dove into an injected rotary conversion ,, this ment
needing to fork out an extra $1500 for a good computer system , just be aware of that factor as it is easy to over looked as i have been there
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull  ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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kroozzn63
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 09:29 PM |
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man we all ask this question my answer is get a 1776cc dual carbs then if thats not enough sell it, and go something else,,,, ha ha says me that hasnt
driven a more powerful type one motor than a stock 1600 single carb
and im starting with a 2017cc full house motor cant wait...
[ Edited on 11-1-2007 by kroozzn62 ]
show us your gates
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THUDKNUCKLE
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 09:59 PM |
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depends on what the car is used for i guess??
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 10:02 PM |
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get a brand newie mexico 1600 and get that babie on the road.....luuuurve the colour!
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MattY-64
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 12:29 PM |
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Thanks everyone for the help,
thanks dumone, i like the colour also, is ford velocity...
lobus, i have seen your post previously and seriouly considerd it, however transport would be a killer (cost wise) at the moment..
I think that i will look for a 1600dp and go the twin carbs to start with, that way i will have a good backup engine for when i get the money for a
monster.
yes it is a swinger but, i have a camber compensator and i am lowering it and i am also installing limiting straps (after it is registered) to remove
the rollover possibilities.
ultimately it is a too and from work car, with a dream of doing some hill climbs/sprints and an attempt at some drifting, so at the moment looking
more for the reliability i suppose.
but above all i think dumone has sumed it up, i need to get it on the road :-)
Cheers,
Matt.
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Jeza
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 06:40 PM |
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Sounds like an excellent plan Matt, and one you won't regreat I'm sure. When I got mine going on a stock 1600 it was grins all round- I might not
have out sprinted most cars on the road, but it pootled around beautifully.
Barls makes a good point, you may find the power of an almost stock T4 is plenty...BUT I'd stick to your currently plan for now, get it on the road
and enjoy it (rebuilding any engine isn't cheap and T4's are renowned for being more expensive).
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 09:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MattY-64
I think that i will look for a 1600dp and go the twin carbs to start with, that way i will have a good backup engine for when i get the money for a
monster.
Matt.
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that sounds the go, also consider some whiteline sway bars front and rear if you intend to go hard, i got em on my swinger, and lurve 'em:thumb
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bond
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 11:43 PM |
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1600tp to get it on the road. dont need twin carbs. if you want to go big, then you spend big $. 1200 box will go, build the motor of your choice.
dont waste your time with a 1200 tp.
nick
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 13th, 2007 at 09:43 PM |
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A 1600 to get it on the road would be a good start.
However, if it is a to and from work car then seriously look into an EJ22 SOHC suby. There will be minimal cutting. It will be much much nicer to live
with every day than the other options. And it has a decent heater for those cold ipswitch nights.
I have had an 1835, 1776 and a 1916cc VW motor. I even bought a couple of type 4's and was going to build a cheap supercharged type 4. But I costed
the type 4 conversion, and found a jap conversion would be much cheaper. The VW motors were all nice, but nothing compared to the modern EFI jap
engines.
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helbus
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| posted on January 14th, 2007 at 09:31 AM |
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Put a stock 1300 in it, cheap as 
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THUDKNUCKLE
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| posted on January 14th, 2007 at 02:15 PM |
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how did you find the performance of the 1916cc and the 1776cc dub engine wes ?? i have never experianced how they go ??
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 14th, 2007 at 04:10 PM |
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compared to a stock 1600, a 1776 with twin kadrons is a great budget step-up. But if you were building a motor you might as well go 1915.
The 1915 with mild cam, high ratio rockers, 044 heads, twin 44IDF webers and other goodies was quite an expensive engine to build (I got mine 2nd hand
from a friend). It was quite a good motor, but you can't compare it with the V6. In comparison, it had no low end torque, it didn't rev and had half
the peak power. It was noisy, not smooth, the carbs and jets got dirty, didn't like optimax or fuel variations much and had no heat or AC.
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THUDKNUCKLE
A.k.a.: James Stoodley
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| posted on January 14th, 2007 at 04:38 PM |
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hmm ok cool i was just curious on how well a hot vw engine goes , the most experiance i have had is with a 1600 dp , webbers, high ratio rockers and a
rediculous cam that made the car difficult to put around in
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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Jeza
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| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 07:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
A 1600 to get it on the road would be a good start.
However, if it is a to and from work car then seriously look into an EJ22 SOHC suby. There will be minimal cutting. It will be much much nicer to live
with every day than the other options. And it has a decent heater for those cold ipswitch nights.
I have had an 1835, 1776 and a 1916cc VW motor. I even bought a couple of type 4's and was going to build a cheap supercharged type 4. But I costed
the type 4 conversion, and found a jap conversion would be much cheaper. The VW motors were all nice, but nothing compared to the modern EFI jap
engines.
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Don't tell us things like that Wes!
I'd love to turbo my Type 4 engine.... but my wifes car is a 2.2 Legacy and I just can't get enough of the way that engine drives, its
fantastic....I keep thinking to myself how much better it would be in a Beetle, but then I'd have to find somewhere to fit a radiator... or the
spare... or the luggage I wanted to carry.
Funny thing is the original reason a lot of the guys in Europe where fitting up Type 4 engines was because they where cheap reilable performance as
there was plenty of them around. Now days on this side of the world Type 4's are generally far from cheap or plentiful (especialy in NZ) and
realistically the "cheap" reliable performance engine is..... yup the Subi.
Stick with the 1600, get it on the road then try and get rides with friends and check out what their cars drive like with differing engines, then
decide what you like and how much you need. Trouble is I drove a freinds 1776 and went "oh yeah", got taken for a spin in a converted 1302 with a
Subi 2.5L and went "Yee haa" and then visited Aussie on holiday and met Jak Rizzo and got taken for a spin in his 1302 with the Subi turbo
conversion and went, well, very quiet really...dumb founded is probably the best description!
Back to my little type 4
Cheers
Jeremy
[ Edited on 15-1-2007 by Jeza ]
......random gibberish for today.......
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kevo
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| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 07:49 PM |
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there is NO cheap way about making your beetle go "fast",
working a VW engine costs alot to get big power, engine conversion are lots of work, thus lots of work = money,
then you have the gearbox troubles...
put aside 3-4K at least
76 baywindow kombi - V8 & Weddle racing diff and gearbox
Daily driven beach cruiser
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crewcabconnection
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 09:33 PM |
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sell it and buy that EJ20T T3 Bus for 7k. One day you'll want a T3, its an evolutionary thing. Then you can freak out 6 passengers in the comfort.
Loves a lolcat
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Che Castro
Custom Title Time!
ankle straps
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| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 10:55 PM |
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I'd agree with just sticking a stock or slightly warm 1600 engine in it - Cheap, you know it fits straight in, no engineering issues etc. It'd be
good as a backup engine as well later down the track.
Jon
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Dark
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| posted on March 5th, 2007 at 10:48 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by THUDKNUCKLE
also if you go mazda injection you will need a full aftermaket computer system to run the engine otherwise you will need to have an entire mazda dash
wired up in your bug ..
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So if I understand well, you can't just plug the ecu to the motor and starts it? When you talk about complete dash, you mean the cluster where are
the temp and fuel gauge,tach and speedo?
Megasquirt cost only about 400$ and appears to do the job very well. |
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THUDKNUCKLE
A.k.a.: James Stoodley
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 10:30 AM |
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yep that is correct you ned the whole cluster and dash with everything plugged inand working otherwise the engine has trouble recongnising all the nessercary information and therefore the computer switches to limp
mode ,, which is about 25% power and will damge the eninge if run extensivley in this manor ( as told by mr rotaries) limp mode is desinged purley to
get you home from an emergancy in the middle of nowhere incase of an engine or eletrical problem
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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rupewrecht
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 11:05 AM |
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A very interesting/informative thread - cheers guys for all the info.
64 Beetle. Like a beaten up 70's speedboat.
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