| [ Total Views: 132551 | Total Replies: 94 | Thread Id: 64944 ] |
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 DubCrazy
A.k.a.: steff
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| posted on September 10th, 2007 at 10:27 PM |
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What engine?
i have a 1776 in the back of my 1960 baja and its just not doing it for me. so i was planing to build a bigger motor but then i got thinking,mayeb its
in my btter intrest to change totaly so, ...... here's the million buck question, what would be a better engine to go for? i know everyone has
different opions but i want to hear fors and againts for all. i am not intrested in going 200k's an hour but it will spend a huge amount of time
offroad and it has to be able to tow the tralier with the three motox bikes with out a real drama.
I am not intrested in a slanging match just the know how of peopel who have all the differnt ennges fitted and the good/bad parts of doing it.
one other thing is and i will have to goto main roads but what would be the bigest size i can goto in the bug? its a 12/60 build with wide 5 drums
all round. i can guess that with any engine upgrade i will need to upgrade the brakes to disc but is there anythign else to bear in mind?
thanks people..
steff...................................
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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kevo
A.k.a.: kevo Milner
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 08:25 PM |
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suba.
injected so you never have to tune it.
easy bolt on wiring looms.
bolt in conversion.
dont have to fix it barely ever.
dont get anything as old as the v8 i bolted in mine... i dont want anyone else going through this shit fight.
76 baywindow kombi - V8 & Weddle racing diff and gearbox
Daily driven beach cruiser
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 03:54 PM |
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yeah, a largish capicity (2.2, 2.4) subi non turbo sounds like a good bet.
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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kroozzn63
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 04:38 PM |
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yeah mate all things said and done being a baja easy access and easier fit of any motor id say subi power, easy maitenance "no" except oil etc and
thats coming from me with a type 1 efi turbo in mine
show us your gates
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gazman
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 05:12 PM |
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Yeah, as much as I hate doing the same thing as everybody else (I like my cars to be different), I'd have to agree that an efi subie motor is the way
to go for an easy, reliable and powerful engine swap.
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DubCrazy
A.k.a.: steff
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 09:41 PM |
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pretty much what everyone is saying for cheap reliable power.... so its scoody do time for me... thxs fellas....
steff.........................
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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THUDKNUCKLE
A.k.a.: James Stoodley
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 07:37 PM |
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agreed subi ,, how about a h6 engine ?? not sure on legalities but they are an inline 6 ,, there was one on ebay not all that long ago pretty cheap
,,,,,
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull  ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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one4
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 07:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by THUDKNUCKLE
agreed subi ,, how about a h6 engine ?? not sure on legalities but they are an inline 6 ,, there was one on ebay not all that long ago pretty cheap
,,,,,
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Aren't they a flat 6. 3.0L horizontally opposed Boxer engine?
Richard
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 08:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DubCrazy
pretty much what everyone is saying for cheap reliable power.... so its scoody do time for me... thxs fellas....
steff.........................
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You might want to re-think the word 'cheap'. There's lots of extra things required for a Subie and the bux add up...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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DubCrazy
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 09:05 PM |
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i know when i say cheap its not *cheap* but compaired to building a 2.3 thats going to take the thrashing i give it and suply me with a/c (at some
point) i think the subaru will offer a more cost affective power plant over the vw engine. dont get me wrong the 1776 i have will most likly last
forever i just want more and more costs big and reliability goes down .
cheers...
steff.......................
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 10:17 PM |
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what about a 2.5lt V6 like Wes ?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 19th, 2007 at 10:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DubCrazy
i know when i say cheap its not *cheap* but compaired to building a 2.3 thats going to take the thrashing i give it and suply me with a/c (at some
point) i think the subaru will offer a more cost affective power plant over the vw engine. dont get me wrong the 1776 i have will most likly last
forever i just want more and more costs big and reliability goes down .
cheers...
steff.......................
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cool. Some people seem to think they can buy a Subie halfcut for $2K and have it in the car for another $2K...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 10:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
cool. Some people seem to think they can buy a Subie halfcut for $2K and have it in the car for another $2K...
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You can if you know what your doing and can do all / most of the work yourself.
The V6 is fanastic, but it's not for the beginner. There is a lot more support for the suby and suby conversion parts out there.
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DubCrazy
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 10:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
what about a 2.5lt V6 like Wes ?
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would love something like that but i dont have the time with this one to work out the ins and outs of the conversion, the subi has much more info
and would be an easier option for now.
I am new to the whole converting option, up untill now i have always been a purist as regards to then engine but need must and the thought of a bug
with a/c is to great ... i have been in the motor trade for the best part of 20 years so the cost will be kept down by myself doing the most parts and
mates from the trade helping with stuff i have no idea about....
cheers..
steff............................
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 10:40 PM |
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honda S2000 vtec motor 
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rocknrob
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 06:23 PM |
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Was talking to john sherman today and he is doing a conversion kit for a customer who is putting an alfasud engine in a beach buggy. It will be
stroked up over 2 litres and turbo charged...should sound nice
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THUDKNUCKLE
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 08:30 PM |
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some vtecs spin in the opposite direction ( or all of them ?? not sure ) but it leads to the possobility of using a differant transacxkle setup ,,
maybe a subi box mated to a vtec ,,,,, but vtec certaily isnt cheap specially s2000 engines
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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DubCrazy
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 10:53 PM |
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hey thud you have a rota in your baja right? hows does it go? i mean i know the rotas go hard when on the boil but the low down powers a bit slack and
for off road it would be like a 2 stroke motox bike always having to keep it in the high revs. i only ask as i was offered a complete set up 12a or
13b with everything needed to do for a cheap price but a fair few warned me off with the low down power issues.... intrested to hear how it goes with
someone who has it fitted..
cheers..
steff...........................
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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Rota_Motor
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| posted on September 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 AM |
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honda motors do spin 'backwards' but only if they are a 4 cylinder, before the current generation (about 2000/2001) I was working at a honda dealer
around then, V6's like the accord etc. spin normally, as does the S2000 engine. not that this would be an issue if using a VW transaxle, as my
understanding is the diff centre can be flipped over (as done for formula Vee) to get the axles spinning the opposite direction 
and I was reading this thread, thinking what else could be done apart from a subi motor, and wasnt going to suggest a rotor. but since you asked...
if you keep it standard, or relatively, especiallyu in regards to porting and induction, it will have nice, usable power down low, especially compared
to a type 1, I'm planning on fitting a 13B N/A to the spare type 3, because I bvelieve it will walk all over anything for a similar price (mainly
because I have one in the shed) but for real good lowdown torque, get a turbo rotor, with again, a standard sized turbo that will spool early, and it
will be more than enough in a baja IMO.
depends what you want, if you want to go the whole hog and injection etc. I'd go for the subaru engine, or 12A/13B turbo, or if you want to keep it
naturally aspirated, the 13B sixport found in 86-92 RX-7s should offer good driveability, SR20 turbo nissan I believe is also a very torquey unit with
good turbo selection with lots of aftermarket support (maybe not for the conversion)
but if you want to keep it simple, dizzy and carby, 13B is a good cheap engine, or an old nissan L18/20, or even a 2.6 litre sigma engine - can be
built and not va nice engine but torque is always there. |
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gazman
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| posted on September 24th, 2007 at 01:49 PM |
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yeah, 13b sixport would go real nice as well, i had one in a S3 RX7 and that car could fly. RX7's are heavier than they look (especially S4/5) and if
a rotary can make them go fast it would have no probs pushing a baja.
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THUDKNUCKLE
A.k.a.: James Stoodley
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| posted on September 24th, 2007 at 04:20 PM |
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lol as said before yes rotaries do lack bottom punch but no where near what ppl may think ,, and this is compared to what ?? ,, it also depends on
what rota you chose and go with ,, for instance i went with a hybrid set up using a mixeture of series 5 turbo and series 4 non turbo gear ,, along
with a very large extended port .. this engine is in its peak between 3500 - to say 7500 even though it will rev out past that .. i run a standard
ratio 6 rib box with 31 x 11.5 mudders on the back and it will cruise around the streets at 60 in 4th all day long and up most hills ,,, not all but
most .. all in all i find it to be a very drivable and extremely FUN car and engine to play with ,, but it does get expensive when dealing with
rotaries
the conversion has cost alot more then i would have ever expected from extra parts needed that you wouldnt need on other piston engines ,,, such as
good quality stainless steel baffles or mufflers ( cheap ones will last a few weeks ) a microtech system if goin injected due to the the standard
computer liking to have the whoel instrumewnt cluster from a mazda in teh car ect ect ....
its all about what you like ,, what you can afford ,, what you plan on doin with it
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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THUDKNUCKLE
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| posted on September 24th, 2007 at 04:22 PM |
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oh yeah and due to the addd epenses and troubles trying to keep the car quiet for road use ( still reads 91 at idle with 2 baffles and a stainless cat
) my current project steers well clear of the rotaries even though i love the concept , there feel ,, and their sound
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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Rota_Motor
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| posted on September 24th, 2007 at 07:40 PM |
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I have to disagree with ancilliaries for a rotor costing more.
If you try to do a conversion on anything with similar power, you will want good quality mufflers anyway, I would personally go for a RotaFlo
resonator and muffler, which should give a legal level.
as for engine management, to get the most out of any engine, you'll want an aftermarket system, and I have seen several rotors run off a few hundred
dollars worth of secondhand ECU's, and while not as good as the new big dollar items, they still work.
not necessarily trying to make you go rotor, but you want to be informed before making a choice, if you want to learn more, go to http://www.ausrotary.com and have a look around. |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 24th, 2007 at 11:15 PM |
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I've been in a lot of converted VW's. Thud's rotary, Mick's EJ22 Manx, Terry's EJ22 Baja, the EJ22 Iguana, Brad's EJ20T Baja, Lots of VW engined
Baja's and Buggies and of course my V6 Baja.
Smoothness - the V6 wins hands down, nothing comes close. It is vibration free (you get a little with the suby and rotary) and it's power curve is so
smooth.
Low down torque - the V6 wins again, I can drive at 1000-1500rpm up hills if I like (even as low as 600rpm on smaller hills). The EJ20T did make
suprisingly good torque low down as the turbo kicked in, but it was also difficult to control as it did kick in. If you tried to lug up something it
would have nothing at first, and then you'd squeeze the throttle a little bit more and the turbo would kick in, then it would want to accelerate. It
made slow speed offroading difficult. The EJ22's were pretty good, not as torque as the V6 but way better than a VW engine. I don't have a good
comparison with Thud's car here, I never went for a ride when he tried to see how slow he could go up a hill.
Noise quantity - The V6 is suprisingly quiet. I am only running a 12yr old 2" turbo muffler, and my car is pretty quiet. Thud's car is louder and
has way more exhaust on it. The EJ20T is pretty quiet because of the turbo. The EJ22's are somewhere in between, probably not far off the V6 if both
had the same exhausts.
Noise quality - Now this is very subjective. Personally, I hate the rotary sound. I love the V6, it sounds awesome to me. The EJ20T sounds cool when
driving as you hear the turbo spool. The EJ22 doesn't sound much different to a worked VW motor really.
Top end power - This is probably a close battle between the V6, the Rotary and the EJ20T. The rotary probably being the most powerful in the current
state of tune of the 3 cars. The difference is the EJ20T can have the boost wound up and then it would be the clear winner. The thing I don't like
about the EJ20T (and the EJ22's) is they don't rev high. The EJ20T you really get the feeling that it's just coming on boost and starting to come
alive and then you need to change gear again. This is where the V6 and the Rotary are more "fun" to drive. They both build in power as the revs get
higher, encouraging you to rev them more and enjoy the sounds and power that comes with it. My V6 revs to nearly 8000rpm, and does it happily and
easily. The rotary is pretty similar in this respect.
ease of fitment - Here the EJ22 is the clear winner. I guess the EJ20T is probably close behind if you don't mind a bit of firewall cutting. The
rotary would probably be next, and I am sure the V6 would be the most difficult, requiring the most modification.
Gearbox friendliness - I think it's fair to say the EJ20T is pretty bad in this respect. The way the boost comes on and requires a more aggressive
offroad driving style leads to a harder life for the gearbox. Brad's Baja destroyed a lot of gearbox parts in a short period. I think Thud had some
gearbox issues with his rotary to start with, but I think it's been better lately (you can say otherwise James). The EJ22's seem to be happy with
the kombi gearboxes, and my V6 has been fine with my 2L kombi box for the last 4 yrs. I think the V6 will be quite good because it's so smooth you
don't need to trash it.
cost - The EJ22 would be the cheapest. Next is hard to say. It's probably a toss up as to what you can find as a good price.
Regarding ECU, I recommend staying with the original ECU if at all possible. You'd be suprised how much it does and how failure proof it makes the
engine. My V6 ecu is very smart and has a large range of limp-home type facilities. If one sensor fails it generally has a second sensor somewhere
else that it can use to keep the engine running. From a modification approval point of view the original ECU is the best option. Technically you
can't use an aftermarket ECU unless you have the finished program and vehicle emissions tested. Sticking with the original ECU will be the cheapest
option. If you are planning big engine modifications then you need an aftermarket ECU, but perhaps then you should decide if you should have just went
for the more powerful engine option in the first place.
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mattie182
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 11:54 AM |
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steff, I think you are gunna have to come to rocky, I can take you for a drive in the EJ buggy, and go for an offroad............
An EJ22 would be the best option
mat
Once you go flat, you never go back!!!!!!
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Dero
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 05:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Gearbox friendliness - I think it's fair to say the EJ20T is pretty bad in this respect. The way the boost comes on and requires a more aggressive
offroad driving style leads to a harder life for the gearbox. Brad's Baja destroyed a lot of gearbox parts in a short period. I think Thud had some
gearbox issues with his rotary to start with, but I think it's been better lately (you can say otherwise James). The EJ22's seem to be happy with
the kombi gearboxes, and my V6 has been fine with my 2L kombi box for the last 4 yrs. I think the V6 will be quite good because it's so smooth you
don't need to trash it.
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Out of interest, really for my project coming up... what gearbox's was/ is Buggy Brad running with the EJ20T Baja, im guessing Kombi's. This is what
I plan to use a 2ltr is worth paying the price beefing it up... or if driven half resposiably (probably more difficult then said) just keep it
stock...
But yeah Turbo's can be fairly hard on really any box, with the aggressive power torque curve...
Cheers
Joel
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THUDKNUCKLE
A.k.a.: James Stoodley
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 06:39 PM |
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great stuff wes sounds all pretty good to me although yea the sound is an aqquried taste. if you go turbo rotor then noise issues will be no problems
( as for leagalities),, but as it stands trying to keep my baja quiet and keep the exhaust fitting under the back cage really has been a problem that
ideas were worked on by not only myself but tony down at mr rotaries and the fellas out at phill rotaries ,, the solution that we came up with was
using two inline baffles and a stainless cat ,, baffles came in at 245$ each + the cat + the work tryign to fit it all in . ,,
what about thinking out of the square again ?? anybody have thoughts on toyota inline 4's ,, they build dsome pretty tough engines and are very
popular in alot of kit cars . maybe something like a Toyota 4vzfe quad cam 2.5 litre engine .. ?? just some thoughts or maybe even a bigger
displacemnt subi over the turbo set up
Love is a Rotary baja bug
Just be carefull ,, something dangerous is lurkin in My garage
ready to burst out in a fit of Big Hp, high boost baja Rage .
http://groups.msn.com/GottaVW |
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 08:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mattie182
steff, I think you are gunna have to come to rocky, I can take you for a drive in the EJ buggy, and go for an offroad............
An EJ22 would be the best option
mat
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OR you could all pay me a visit and make a weekend of it.....my new rear tyres need a workout....
tssnq.com.au
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 09:18 PM |
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Brad's baja had a 2L kombi with Albins gears and everything. The previous own did trash the thing though. It also ran 33" rears I think, which put
extra strain on everything.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 25th, 2007 at 09:21 PM |
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I should also mention that when I say V6 I mean the V6 in my car specifically (Mazda KLZE). A commodore V6 is a pile of crap as far as I am concerned,
they have torque but they don't sound as good, or rev happily and aren't as smooth.
I am in Canada at the moment and I have a Pontiac Grand Prix hire car. It's got a 3.8L V6 like the old commodore motor, but it's front wheel drive.
It's got a lot of torque and power, but it's not a refined engine. Front wheel drive and 3.8L is a silly combination too!
[ Edited on 25-9-2007 by Baja Wes ]
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