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 Wild1
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| posted on September 8th, 2008 at 10:55 PM |
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the religion thread
Just continuing on from the other thread - why are people against religion?
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GTMac
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| posted on September 8th, 2008 at 11:01 PM |
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Praise the Lord!
Im not against religion nor anyone who is fanatical about it. Its great to have a love and belief for something so much.
I just have a problem when your inocently walking down the street minding your own business and someone tries to jam religion down your
throat..................that aint the way to convert.
And, what other post???????
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whatnow
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| posted on September 8th, 2008 at 11:23 PM |
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gtmac, the "is stealing wrong" post.
i just hate everyone equally 
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 06:41 AM |
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Don't have a problem with some forms of religon at all. It's the far out extremists who want to kill everyone who doesn't worship their "god"
that get up my nose......
everyone can chose. It's a free right in this world to do so. I have mine and if someone asks me about it I'll tell them about it but certainly will
not force it apon anyone who doesn't want to know.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 07:34 AM |
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You can summarise every religious war ever fought in one sentence:
"My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend."
* Everyone is entitled to their own faith, and I object to people trying to thrust their beliefs on me. I don't try to convert other people to
Volkswagens - but I will help you once you've come over yourself.
* I object to religion using unverifiable promises, and threats, to bring people into line, especially children. "Be good and do as you're told, and
you'll go to heaven. If you're bad, you'll burn in hell forever." I have had a recent episode of protecting my daughter from over-zealous
scripture teaching at school.
* I especially object to some religious leaders (especially fundamentalists) perverting science to try to convert people, again, particularly kids.
The creationists are the worst, with their lies about scientific geology, astronomy and biology to promote their irrational beliefs. Critical thinking
is a skill we must teach our kids.
I am afraid that world war three, when it eventually comes, will be fought over religion.
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Gibbo
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 07:52 AM |
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Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally
This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.
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Mick058
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 08:28 AM |
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i think they are all good and fair points, but religion also gets generalized. There are many many great things that come from peoples belief that act
in a positive way towards the world. There is obviously a good argument either way.
Personally i think its best to assess it case by case, person by person, church by church and so on. MY personal belief comes from an understanding of
the bible - i believe that the bible is God breathed, which basically means the bible is Gods direct word to us.
I think culture is also different now - those born in the 50s, 60s and possibly 70s were probably forced to go to church, or follow their parents way,
at least thats what i see of the Christian faith. I think today its more of a personal choice rather then one pushed on you by your parents etc.
Religion may have casued many wars and deaths, but the flip side is that it has also given love, acceptance and understanding when people have needed
it, community work and helping the poor, raising money for good causes etc.
Generalised statements don't really help, its up to an individual to find out for themselves what they believe and why - for me i look to Jesus as
the perfect witness and i believe in that. I go to an Anglican church, but i wouldn't call myself an anglican, i would call myself a Christian.
This doesn't make me better than anyone else either. Christians a generally seen as hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach - i try
my hardest but i dont practice what i preach, its hard work - All true Christians would say that they are sinners and need forgiveness.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 03:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gibbo
Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally
This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.
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Gibbo, this a popularly held view. I wonder if the problem is that people confuse religion with two other things. Tribalism and/or Ideology.
Hugh McKay (not a Christian) said the other day on radio "religion only becomes a problem when it turns into tribalism" or in western countries
Nationalism. If you look back over the last century, you'll find that almost without exception, nationalism (big tribalism) informed our ideologies
and caused the major conflicts. Nationalism is bad for minorities (causes things like ethnic cleansing) and makes people think they are superior
because they come from a particular place (US foreign policy). So lets look at the great wars and see if I'm right? WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq
and the plight of the Kurds. 911 was retaliation for US nationalism. I don't condone it, but that's what happened. Nationalism has been the scourge
of the 19th and the 20th centuries. Want to see it at work in OZ? Look at the redneckery surrounding the Cronulla riots and the southern cross
stickers on the backwindow of cars. That really scares me.
Most other conflict is causes by selfishness and greed. Sometimes it is said to be done in the name of religion, but at the heart of it, selfishness
and greed are the real problems.
BTW, if any Christian feels it's appropriate to kill women and children for Jesus, they need to take a good long hard look at the bible and
themselves. The same goes for pedophiles.
Re evangelism; I love VWs and think they are great so why shouldn't I want to share it with other people? Same goes for Jesus as far as I'm
concerned. That said, there's a big difference between sharing and bible bashing! 
The other thing worth saying at this juncture is this too.
What has religion done for Australia?
uncorrupt legal system, education system, social welfare, rights for workers...and more. All these things came from church/religious angencies and
were taken on by the government later on.
Australia might be a very secular society, but it has been built on Christian values.
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trickysimon
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 03:49 PM |
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I beleive that religion is just a way of trying to explain the unknowns. They are stories, moral beliefs and rules to try and convince children to do
the right things. The beliefs and rules are very similar across most religions.
Simon
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 05:00 PM |
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Most of the religous slaughter fests are the the result of some unelected priest/kult leader/witch doctor pointing to someone or something and saying
that it is not Gods way or word and should be "cleansed" eg: The Crusades, protestant/catholic purges, The Spanish Inquistition, Salem Witch trials
etc etc
Then you ask "whats wrong with religion?" Look at history there are plenty of examples.
Faith is completely different. That is someone's personal belief/life choice that each person needs to find after experiencing or studying as much as
Life can offer.
If you need to be threatened or bribed or brainwashed into a life choice then you are only a puppet not a being. The Bible is a good book to live by,
NOT to live FOR. My2c
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 05:01 PM |
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Pete you make some good points, but unfortunately religion does have to wear some blame for the wars of the last century. WW1 was sparked by uprisings
in the Yugoslav potions of the former Austro-Hungarian empire. That part of the world is still an ethnic and religious hot spot. No one could ever
forget the Nazi persecution of the Jews during WW2, and then the tensions when the British created Jewish Israel on then Islamic Palestinian land in
1948. All the tension in the middle east since comes down to religion. The first thing Saddam did after invading Kuwait was to fire Scud missiles at
Israel. No one doubts that the US is involved in Iraq now over oil, but the locals see it as a religious struggle - jihad.
Even the Christians fight one another - look at Northern Ireland over most of last century. Even here, I can remember growing up in a protestant
government school and picking fights with the catholic kids from the school down the road. No one knew why. We were just following the older kids, who
learned it from their older kids and so on. Even the fallout between Don Bradman and Bill O'Reilly was based on protestant-catholic rivalry. It's so
stupid.
I think the Cronulla riot thing was based on redneck racisim and the 'us vs the mussos' thing. What a disgraceful episode that was. But ultimately
islamic fundamentalism is as bad as christian fundamentalism, or Tom Cruise scientology fundamentalism, or any other fundamentalism.
Do we really need religion to teach us morals? Surely we can work out ourselves what is right and wrong? We know that stealing, murder, child
molestation and racisim, for example, is wrong and always has been.
I class evangelism as akin to aggressive marketing, and yes bible-bashing is invasive and tends to have the opposite effect - it puts people off. Yes
we all love Volkswagens - we are the converted! - but it would be rude to go to the Holden V8 forum and attempt to convert them. We would not like it
if they tried to convert us - fights and arguments would eventuate in either case. So it should be with religion.
BTW, educational systems began in ancient Egypt and were first formalised by the ancient Greeks, many hundred years of years BC. The Greeks also began
the idea of the justice system and the courts - the symbol of justice, the scales, began at that time. The Egyptians had worker contracts (the
pyramids were built by contract workers, not slaves), as well as the largest library in the ancient world, at Alexandria. Religion does many good
things today but can't take the credit for the way our society works. There are good reasons for the separation of church and state.
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grogy
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 05:11 PM |
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religion
it could only be true religion if it didnt take sides and didnt kill anyone even if a politician tells u to do so
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Wild1
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 06:52 PM |
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Pete, I think it's a little simplistic separating religion and nationalism. Often it takes the form of religious nationalism, which is worse than
either of the two on their own.
Also, I think that books like the bible etc might have been good to live by and as a method for teaching morals way back when (could have been written
for this reason I would imagine), but in this day and age when you have to skip so many passages because they boil down to feudalism and outdated
views we should look elsewhere for guidance.
This can be seen by those who take ambiguous passages literally and use it to justify their (extremist or otherwise) actions. It's ambiguous, which
means it's either badly written or outdated or both. Why should one then look to it for guidance when you can find it elsewhere. Maybe they can't.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 07:31 PM |
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Grogy, everyone takes sides. It's whether you take sides for other's benefit or for your own personal gain that's the issue.
Wild1, what you say has some merit, what I think we discount is the force of that nationalism/tribalism. Religion is only one part of tribalism.
People start thinking in pack us VS them mentality. What happened in Northern Ireland was pure tribalism. It just ended up being stamped with the
protestant/catholic stamps just like the public/catholic school thing that's been mentioned.
Hitlers actions toward the Jews in WW2 were a masterstroke of socio-religious deception. He found a scapegoat for germanies problems and used it to
terrifying effect. This is tribalism at it's worst. I also agree that building of the modern Israel in 1948 was politically inept (not to mention
highly theologically suspect).
Re the bible; it's main purpose is to talk about Jesus. When you get that clear, it makes a lot more sense.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
Do we really need religion to teach us morals? Surely we can work out ourselves what is right and wrong? We know that stealing, murder, child
molestation and racisim, for example, is wrong and always has been.
BTW, educational systems began in ancient Egypt and were first formalised by the ancient Greeks, many hundred years of years BC. The Greeks also began
the idea of the justice system and the courts - the symbol of justice, the scales, began at that time.
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Greek society and education was built on pederasty. 
p.s. this is an awesome debate. love the way people are thrashing these things out with respect for eachother. Good work guys. 
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 08:01 PM |
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I think you've given us the bum steer about the Greeks, Pete!
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pete wood
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 08:22 PM |
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^ bad joke dude!
yeah, ok, I'll cop that. Plato's 'republic' was the first serious document to think about education. Thing was, it was education for the elite and
pederasty was the norm in Greece too (although Plato wrote against it). Christianity brought education to the masses. Protestants after the
reformation (same time as the enlightenment) wanted everyone to read the bible (in their own language) so they taught everyone to read. Most
universities were started Christian institutions, but have moved away from that. Eg. My wife's grandfather went to Cambridge during the 20s. He came
out as a minister as well an engineer. On a sidenote, he invented the rolling road dyno for F1 cars.
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Wild1
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 08:59 PM |
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But it's been seen that religion far too often breeds tribalism. In fact, that's one of the reasons why religion leads to the kinds of atrocities as
we have seen in the past (just look at the crusades!).
Also, just because a particular religion started something or brought something to the people is no reason to justify it's continued existence.
Christianity might have been needed to bring education to the masses, but:
a) we shouldn't all think that it would not have happened otherwise, and
b) is no reason whatsoever to keep it. We have schools now (and hopefully with religion kept out of them - but I shan't open that can of worms)
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pete wood
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 09:16 PM |
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You may be right about point A. Although, there were thousands of years of education prior to that and it never en mass anywhere else.
As for point B, well I'm going to have to dissagree with you. 
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Flintstones
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 09:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
I think the Cronulla riot thing was based on redneck racisim and the 'us vs the mussos' thing.
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You need to delve into what the real issue is here, and not be blinded and brainwashed with the rubbish the media only allow you to see...
The problem we have as a society is that everyone has to be politically correct, and care about everyone else's "feelings" so that we are seen as
being tolerant!
Yet on the other side of the fence, under your very nose, they try and change your world/beliefs/laws so that we comply with them.......look outside
your own backyard and have a look at Europe, they are too far gone now to change anything back......
To set the record straight I do believe in God and do believe in helping one another for the benefit of mankind , not stealing, gambling etc.
I don't go to a building called "church" to put my faith in a man that stands up the front saying this and that...A lot of people are misdirected
by the truth.
I talk to God/Jesus directly, and confess to him direct.
There is a lot of information out there, all one has to do is open their eyes to see what is actually in front of them.
God bless.
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grogy
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 10:10 PM |
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pete, everyone takes sides for their own personal benefit, the hard part is to do it without hurting others,and hopefully they can benefit also. but
if we do it because we are right, and it does hurt others then we are probably not right anyway
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Wild1
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 10:12 PM |
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But isn't that (Cronulla) mainly about entrenched poverty and the frustration arising out of that?
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 10:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick058
i think they are all good and fair points, but religion also gets generalized. There are many many great things that come from peoples belief that act
in a positive way towards the world. There is obviously a good argument either way.
Personally i think its best to assess it case by case, person by person, church by church and so on. MY personal belief comes from an understanding of
the bible - i believe that the bible is God breathed, which basically means the bible is Gods direct word to us.
I think culture is also different now - those born in the 50s, 60s and possibly 70s were probably forced to go to church, or follow their parents way,
at least thats what i see of the Christian faith. I think today its more of a personal choice rather then one pushed on you by your parents etc.
Religion may have casued many wars and deaths, but the flip side is that it has also given love, acceptance and understanding when people have needed
it, community work and helping the poor, raising money for good causes etc.
Generalised statements don't really help, its up to an individual to find out for themselves what they believe and why - for me i look to Jesus as
the perfect witness and i believe in that. I go to an Anglican church, but i wouldn't call myself an anglican, i would call myself a Christian.
This doesn't make me better than anyone else either. Christians a generally seen as hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach - i try
my hardest but i dont practice what i preach, its hard work - All true Christians would say that they are sinners and need forgiveness.
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Agree with you on all points there Mick.
Best thing I have heard in regards to religion who most then relate directly/indirectly to christianity was that christianity is a chosen lifestyle
NOT a religon. In today's society most religons you hear about are the extremists who are full of traditions, secret meetings and an abundance of
rules that most of us would see as ridiculous. Unfortunately the media like to tar everyone with the same brush so to speak with regards to religion
comparing say the local baptist church to the church of scientology. There is no comparison as one is a church who is trying to serve the local
community with good deeds and the other is just simply made by a man who invented a totally bizarre set of rules for those who wish to follow who are
then sworn to secrecy about what goes on behind doors.
If you choose to be a member of the church of scientology then that's great but you cannot compare something like that to your more mainstream
traditional churches so to speak. My wife works in the media and tells me how they love to run stories on religion as they know it's highly debatable
and will get people talking. Unfortunately they really don't care who's image is tarnished with incorrect accusations as it sells papers/ gets good
ratings for TV etc etc.
Not to say all accusations are false but I would love to see a story run with a totally non biased approach so the people can then decide for
themselves.
It's the media's way of bible bashing if you think about it. they will slant their angle on a story and force their opinion on you till you start to
believe it instead of making a rational decision for yourself.
I find the most opinionated people in regards to religion or anti religion are those who have never really tried it in any form or as it was stated
above were dragged to church kicking and screaming by their parents when they were young.
And I agree with some comments made here but not others but certainly respect everyone's point of view and the fact that a topic like this is being
discussed in such a rational respectfull way.
This certainly tells me a lot about VW owners....
not just educated and smart folk for driving them but also learned in many other things too
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pete wood
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 10:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Flintstones
To set the record straight I do believe in God and do believe in helping one another for the benefit of mankind , not stealing, gambling etc.
I don't go to a building called "church" to put my faith in a man that stands up the front saying this and that...A lot of people are misdirected
by the truth.
I talk to God/Jesus directly, and confess to him direct.
There is a lot of information out there, all one has to do is open their eyes to see what is actually in front of them.
God bless.
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I love to talk more about this flintstones. Send me a PM.
Grogy, there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.
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MickH
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| posted on September 9th, 2008 at 11:38 PM |
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.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....
How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!!
tssnq.com.au
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Mick058
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 08:53 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Wild1
Pete, I think it's a little simplistic separating religion and nationalism. Often it takes the form of religious nationalism, which is worse than
either of the two on their own.
Also, I think that books like the bible etc might have been good to live by and as a method for teaching morals way back when (could have been written
for this reason I would imagine), but in this day and age when you have to skip so many passages because they boil down to feudalism and outdated
views we should look elsewhere for guidance.
This can be seen by those who take ambiguous passages literally and use it to justify their (extremist or otherwise) actions. It's ambiguous, which
means it's either badly written or outdated or both. Why should one then look to it for guidance when you can find it elsewhere. Maybe they can't.
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Great thread guys, good to see it staying so clean.
In regards to this, in part i agree, but true study of the bible and understanding of how to read it properly takes years - its a book that needs to
be read in its context in parts, including cultural context and context within the bible as a whole. Some bits a literal, others require closer study.
The bible is an amazing book and spans over 1000's of years in the making.
Its God inspired (in the bibles view). In saying that though, anyone can pick up a bible and have an understanding, especially with what Jesus says in
the New testament.
I wouldn't say it was outdated either - if you read Old testament writings (approx. 1500 years before Christ) and read what they get upto, you find
that the writings in the New testament explain the same. Today isn't much different really -the 'sins' the bible talks about and the way in which
people act, in my personal opinion, is the same today as it was in the bible writing times - maybe what has changed a little is what is culturally
acceptable, but what drives those motives in a person seems to be the same.
Flintstone - True, 'Church' shouldnt be a building - the bible is pretty clear in saying that the 'church' is the people that make it up. The
wealth spent in 'buildings' is a little disappointing in my view.
I'm a weekly church attendee (let alone other weekly things that go on) and my reason for church is fellowship and teaching - i find it quite
difficult to live a Christian life and church is a way in meeting with others and being encouraged by others who find it just as hard.
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zjm
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 230
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 09:51 AM |
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when you die you are dead!
religion is for people who are scared by that
you can only live on through your children its that simple
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Mick058
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 09:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....
How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!!
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Just in defense of 'paid ministry' - I think its quite a big decision to make to work full time for God. Most ministers (at least within my
understanding of the Anglican system) have full university degrees - the pay would be quite different between the 2. (most of them seem to be
engineers!)
Also, from the ministers at my church, man they work hard - it really is FULL time ministry. Way above and beyond what they get 'paid' to do.
Ministry comes from the desire to want to share the hope that you have in Christ.
A church runs on people serving each other - paid ministers give themselves full time to the Gospel of Jesus and the money they get paid helps them
provide for their family's.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
Bishop of Volkswagenism
Hairy Gutted Sloth
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 10:48 AM |
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Everyone has decisions to maker in their lives....Pete's comment was incorrect as he gains personally from what he does,which is a decision he made.
tssnq.com.au
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 10:57 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....
How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.
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Fair question. Let me explain.
I get paid a "stipend". This is a living allowance that frees me up to work for the church. It pays my bills and allows me not to worry about
financial things so that I can concentrate on talking to people about Jesus and helping them. And if more people become followers of Jesus, I don't
benefit financially. The church I work for will have more money to do more ministry and help more people, but I don't profit from it at all. Let me
be straight up with you and tell you my income before tax is not quite $38k. Now I do have an expense account, but that pays for any other work
expenses (of which there are many). I have 3 kids and my wife doesn't work. I'm not in it for the cash.
zjm, with respect, I think we all know deep down there is more than just this life. I want to see people live forever. Jesus promises that for us and
our kids... if we trust him.
If I didn't truly think Jesus was the answer to our world's problems, I'd be making $$$$ out of music for a living (something I passed up) and
racing porsches on the weekends. I'd be living for me and no one else. I'm sure I'd be miserable too. There was a time when I didn't believe and I
was miserable.
Jesus helps me to see it's not about me it's about him.
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 11:04 AM |
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Jesus = Prozac then Pete?
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