| [ Total Views: 8098 | Total Replies: 96 | Thread Id: 79100 ] |
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 Craig S
A.k.a.: Craig
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 05:43 PM |
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Philosophical question about Subaru conversions
This isn’t a criticism of people who have converted because I’m very tempted to do so, but my head and heart are in disagreement.
At the risk of over thinking things this is where I’m at.
I have a 74 L Bug, which currently has the stock 1600, and I’m madly saving with the aim of one day making it a really nice daily driver (i.e. very
strong/fast engine) that I can also use in club events etc. At present I drive it a couple of days a week.
In my head there’s no argument, a EJ20T would be cheaper than a strong air cooled, more powerful, more reliable, more economical, quieter etc etc,
and I should do the conversion, but my heart struggles with the idea.
To my heart the aircooled flat four is intrinsic to what makes the car a VW. Despite the fact that the Subaru engine is essentially a modern
interpretation of it, it still is fundamentally different. I can’t get past the fact that the aircooled engine is not just the heart of the car, but
the soul as well.
The question I keep asking myself is: If I want to put a EJ20T in the bug, why not just buy an old WRX, why put it in the bug?
My question for those with a engine conversion is: What still makes it a VW for you, rather than a Subaru/whatever?
Look forward to your thoughts!
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 05:58 PM |
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Hi
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make
60 or 70 hp.
If you fit a WRX motor and do a lot of the work yourself you spend much less than this and easily have twice the hp.
My old yellow 1302 had a water-cooled Kombi motor in it, when I sold it I converted the car back to air-cooled without any dramas.
Steve
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11CAB
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 06:00 PM |
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I see it no different to the Hot Rods or 4wd's that transplant engines.... You love the car, but want it more modern.
65 Meyers Manx
68 Country Buggy (KO 367)
68 Country Buggy (KO 669)
68 Country Buggy (KO 789)
68 Country Buggy (KO 815)
68 Baja Bug
76 Baja Kombi Twincab
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colonel mustard
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 06:03 PM |
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I agree with you. it is likely for it to be cheaper to go EJ.... but aircooled keeps it orignial. in the end, its your car and no one can tell you
what to do with it. i like the idea of 1915's its enough for me...
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STIDUB
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 06:14 PM |
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see what 11CAB said 
retrotech-according to street machine mag in our own way, seen old holdens with LS1s etc in them? 240z's with sr20's Rb26s etc?
that said im also twisted enough to like the idea of a k20a (honda integra type r) into a 60's mini  < alternatively check out awdsupermini on youtube haha
todays mechanical refinement in yesterdays style
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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 Yogie
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 06:18 PM |
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I feel your pain. I have gone through what you are going through now and still haven't finally decided on a solution. In the end, it is up to you
to decide what makes it a vw or not. I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as
people make out to fit a subi in. By the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection
stuff, it all adds up. What you get though is smooth modern reliable performance though. My preference would probably be T4 power instead of EJ22 or
if you want big power, fit a subi turbo.
Yogie
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 06:26 PM |
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If only vw went back to a boxer of some kind.
i wouldn't question a conversion if they had a vw badge stamped into a block of a modern, efi, and at least 120+ hp DOHC motor.
But all this east west inline 4 buisness just won't fit as nicely in the decklid, despite those gti golf motors being quite impressive.
In honesty, i'm keen on subaru, but worry about criticism. Not that i care what people say, but sure you make it to have go to have fun, but its also
a social statement / show off sesh! Putting on a show is half the fun.
its hard  minds all over the place.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Joel
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 08:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Yogie
I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as people make out to fit a subi in. By
the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection stuff, it all adds up. What you get
though is smooth modern reliable performance though.
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thats exactly the reason im doing my thread so people can see exactly whats involved and im keeping track of all the costs even down to silly little
$4 bolts or grommets.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 08:17 PM |
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$10k-$15k if you get a workshop to do the conversion.
Then factor in $5k for a gearbox and around $1k-$2k for brakes..............then uprated suspension mods of around $1k.
Don't get suckered in by people saying its a "cheap" conversion you can do for $800 
Answer to your question....buy an old WRX. 
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pete wood
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 09:58 PM |
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I'm with craig, don't be sucked in by the "cheap" tag.
however, if you want a real handling, club car you'll spend that money anyway jap engine or aircooled motor.
other thing worth saying is this. Subaru just took the VW engine, fixed all the weak bits and put proper 20century heads on it. just remember, the
Ej20T won the WRC more than once. Anything that good is quite an engine. The SR20DET can't boast that.
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Craig S
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| posted on September 16th, 2009 at 10:34 PM |
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Thanks for the various comments guys. I'm trying to justify converting the bug by saying that when I buy a Ghia to have as another car in the garage
after the bug is completed, I can have that as a nice aircooled cruiser. Just as well my timeframe for completion on both is 17 years 
I'm under no illusion that conversion would cheap, especially as most work would have to be done by professionals given my lack of skill and
knowledge. But... the brakes, suspension and gearbox are all in line for upgrading whichever path I take, so those costs for all intents and purposes
equal out.
Aircooled motor would also be 2 litres or more, EFI and possibly forced induction, so all of those things result in the cost being VERY large
(especially if you start plumbing for intercoolers etc).
Sadly the reality is I'm a few years away from having sufficient bickies to go down either path, so I can equivocate for some time yet, keeping my
motivation up with this site and VW magazines.
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 08:16 AM |
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It can be done cheap. I did my conversion with rear disc brakes quite cheaply. I listed all of my costs here;
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html
I think the whole "but it's not a VW if it has a different engine" is ridiculous. People put webers carbs, empi wheels, empi / scat / CB /
autocraft / other heads, cases, cranks, valves, crankshafts, etc into their VW's and aren't worried that the parts weren't made by VW. Count how
many actully VW parts are on a high powered "VW" drag motor.
I have found that at shows many people love the conversion and want to talk for hours. Those people are very open minded and strangely not many of
them come to VW forums. The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get
the impression that not many people like the conversions. Although having said that this area has been growing in recent years.
I did my conversion because I liked my car but didn't like the VW engine. I had many VW engines before changing to the V6. Now I have a car that is
way nicer to drive, and has digital climate control air conditioning.
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Mick058
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 08:17 AM |
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Hey Craig - im kinda the same, wanna get another 'aircooled' vw post the conversion. Reubs has the best of both worlds!
I like the bug, the shape and the character - engine wise? Sure its cool to say its fast and air cooled. BUT, i think anyone who puts a 1916 in would
probably get bored and want to get more hp - that costs lots - then they get bored of that and go again - and so on. IF you go suby, go turbo, that
way you can control what you want. the fact that you reach to the ignition from outside the car, turn it, and the EJ20T fires up straight away is a
pleasure too.
Cost wise of a suby, depends. Ask Jakriz what he spent. My halfcut cost $3600, it was an 02 STI - you dont have to go down that track - i did it the
expensive way - there may be no need to, but i have more power on tap if a choose to go faster - though im sure 200hp will be plenty for a while (Brad
reckons ill get bored of that!).
Depends what you like about your vw. Aircooled was loud, crappy on really hot days at 100k's and not as smooth as the suby - though aircooled has
additional character. MInd you, tell people you have a WRX motor (or STI) in a beetle and the reaction is funny as!
Good luck Craig - both are good options!
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Craig S
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 09:21 AM |
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Thanks Wes and Mick,
I've been playing close attention to Joel's conversion, and have tried to track everything down that I can about Jak Rizzo's car both on here and
on German Look (sadly many of the photos seem to have gone AWOL when the GL site went down for a while). I think I need to have a beer and a chat with
those that have done the conversion. That's my plan with you Mick, but I'm waiting for the job to finish. I have a sneeking suspicion that sitting
in the passenger's seat of the 58 would be enough to convince me!
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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Mick058
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 09:32 AM |
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Sounds good to me Craig - anytime. Hoping to get it back for the weekend - really really want it back now.
Can't wait to do some club stuff, be good if i have fellow dubber to come too!
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STIDUB
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Over it.
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 09:53 AM |
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id like to make a point here, craig, qwendolyns master has actually pointed out the fact you SHOULD upgrade gearbox brakes & suspension for
EITHER, just because its aircooled doesnt mean $$$ shouldnt be spent on those aswell, the point about those is in a sense pointless, you just have
less of a choice legally if you go wrx
on that note the things you should factor in is plumbing, electrical, & body/pan mods to suit as these are the things that make the differences
between air & water regardless, add up the bang for buck of say, a 2.xL T4 based turbo compared to buying an ej20t exclude brakes gearbox &
suspension $$ for the start then work it out...
if theres arguement, read the 1st part about the legality & sensibility of it all, hope that makes sense
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 10:40 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
It can be done cheap. I did my conversion with rear disc brakes quite cheaply. I listed all of my costs here;
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html
The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get the impression that not
many people like the conversions.
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I really don't think this is such an issue............the main problem I see is that unskilled people think that buying a $500 jap motor is a
solution to there problems, and that it costs bugger all to do the conversions. This is NOT true for someone that is not able to do the work
themselves. Yes yes Wes we all know yours was done cheaply, and yes yes we all know that Jak did his cost affectively as well, but you guys did all
the work yourself and are skilled..BUT ask Mick how much it has cost him, or speak to Buggy Brad to find out how much he charged to do the conversion
for a "drive in, drive out" conversion.
And re the "upgrades"....you don't need rear disc brakes, uprated front brakes, uprated torsion bars, and a fully modified gbox for an aircooled
upgrade...Yes yes I know its favourable, but not mandatory.
I have no issues with conversions, just the perception that they are cheap.
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 11:02 AM |
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Thats exactly right Craig T, the conversion will vary considerably with regards to how much u are able/willing to do yourself. I did my conversion for
$3800, engineered , on the road, BUT, I have access to many things that others don't, Father is a Toolmaker, Inlaws own a wreckers, good mate owns a
muffler shop, Pauly wired up the Microtech etc etc. look after my gearbox as well. my car was also already setup for a high powered donk with big
brakes etc, so no money was spent on the car.
Gwendolyns Master , if u are going to Warwick I'll take u for a drive if u like. All pics that were on German Look are now here http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/forum/index.php?&autocom=gallery&cmd=...
if u have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
regards
Jak
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Mick058
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 11:16 AM |
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Again, just note i didn't take the cheaper path. Even if a shop did my conversion, if we did it more on the cheap the price would of been
different.
I've done my own conversion before (Rotary in a 68 beetle), didn't have web access, was 18 years old and knew nothing about cars. IT was time
consuming but fun - i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a
'good' looking job, not just a job that works.
There is probably enough people that have done it now for those keen to convert to have a go at doing most of it themselves. ITs all about the right
bits and combination at the end of the day, and there is proof of that now.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 11:41 AM |
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Exactly Craig, cost depends on how much you do yourself. Same thing applies with building a tough VW motor to a certain extent.
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colonel mustard
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 11:54 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make
60 or 70 hp.
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1904???? Explain for the unlearned....Please..
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 12:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick058
i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking
job, not just a job that works.
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I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's
something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak
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Mick058
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 12:27 PM |
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cheers Jak - considering how little was cut out of it, its different to others.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 12:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick058
i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking
job, not just a job that works.
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I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's
something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak
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but they are the good quality zip ties
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ian.mezz
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 01:13 PM |
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you get a nice smooth running motor
you can add air/conditioning
and when you pass every one on the HWY all that they
see is that they are being passed by a bloody old veedub.
ps I think that you would have the same problem with any car that you want to race, I am pretty sure those evo and wrx owners still spend thousands on
em to get more power .
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 01:14 PM |
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| Quote: |
but they are the good quality zip ties
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well thats OK then.
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DaveCarter
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 01:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by colonel mustard
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make
60 or 70 hp.
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1904???? Explain for the unlearned....Please..
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90.5 bore and i think 74 stroke. Its in mine
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reub
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VWRX is gone...
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 04:15 PM |
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I don't know that I can really add any value to either agruement, for or against.
I have a wrx powered beetle because that is what I wanted. My conversion is probably over complicated regarding how the conversion done, however so is
the car, modified to the exteme. On the other hand I've just had Dave Butler hype up my aircooled 1916 and will be installing fuel injection to it,
again, because it was what I wanted to do. Neither of my cars are daily drivers, and I have no intention using either of them as a daily driver (my 58
was for around 2 years with the old 1916 twin carb setup). Sure a stock wrx engine is cheaper then a hot 1916, but my purple bug probably owes me
twice that of my 58. Future aspirations are for a 20b powered bug, but that is another story...as well as being able to afford the 'dream'.
Both of my cars are just toys to have fun with, and as Wes keeps saying... 'waste money on'... Volksies are my passion/obession so I'm happy...
At the end of the day I think you need to determine what your expectations of the car is (daily driver, reliable, etc etc) and what your 'real'
budget is...
Reub
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 05:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by reub-revhead
Both of my cars are just toys to have fun with, and as Wes keeps saying... 'waste money on'...
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Yep, VWRX is one of the nicest wastes of money I've ever seen
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 helbus
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| posted on September 17th, 2009 at 06:37 PM |
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The car is what you want it to be!
It will be a VW no matter what motor you have in it, if that is what you want it to be for you.
However if I was to win any drag races in a VW with another brand engine, then it is the brand of engine that wins the race, as I see it.
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