| [ Total Views: 3760 | Total Replies: 79 | Thread Id: 83589 ] |
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 cnfabo
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 08:28 PM |
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valve bounce, new springs needed,but which ones...
after racing in a 2 day event on the weekend which consisted of about 25 stages my valves started floating frequently at 6000rpm, usualy itll rev to
7000 no worries. so im assuming its new spring time. the springs are PEP duals which came on my heads, all i know about them from a article of steve
timms is that they have a seat pressure of 140 ft-ibs, 320 ft-ibs on the nose and installed height of 1.550"...
so would anyone have any suggestions on what to purchase...
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 08:31 PM |
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Ring Rod Penrose.......didnt he sell you the motor ?
you sure its valve bounce ?
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 matberry
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 09:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
Ring Rod Penrose.......didnt he sell you the motor ?
you sure its valve bounce ?
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x2, and the only way to be sure is remove them and test them. Can be done in car.
Before removal, I'd check all valves are getting full lift, after all the engine isn't that old.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 09:05 PM |
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i have rang him and he is checking out some springs for me, but just wanted to see if anyone has had some good results with a spring similar to mine
in spec...thats all.
and yep there floating....
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dangerous
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| posted on May 12th, 2010 at 10:34 AM |
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IF it IS loss of valve control,
there are quite a few springs available.
Probably the best current option for VW diameter dual springs
is the CB performance 650 spring.
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1586
Three important things!!:
1.You must check that the spring can not get into a bound condition.
1.5mm from bind at full MEASURED lift is a good start point.
2. Correct the CAUSE of valve spring pressure loss!!
This can be a range of causes,
some of which relate to correct selection of
cam, rockers and initial valve train set up,
like spring pressure at installed settings and even geometry.
3. Get a rev limiting device an set it to prevent valve float.
I found out the hard way many years ago,
that the tacho and my ear, were not a good enough way to control the revs.
An actual rev limiter is a MUST.
I over reved my engine once and a search of the resultant 3 cylinder running
had a valve spring fall into the dirt,
when the rocker cover was removed.
Once I fitted a rev control,
I found i was hitting it all the time,
and it was set 1000 rpm more that where i thought I was reving the engine.
Spectators said I reved it so high, that only dogs could hear it.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Dero
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| posted on May 14th, 2010 at 03:32 PM |
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Being the Co-Driver for Chris at this event, I would have to say it was vavle bounce. The motor does not have a rev limiter installed, so this is a
problem that im sure Chris will be looking at...
The thing I find interesting is at the start of the WE the motor was revving to 7000rpm no worries, with the vavle bouce happen later, it progressivly
got worse to when happening at 6000.
Anyway was a awesome WE and the car other then the above performed flawlessy! Gotta love knocking the socks off all the modern cars 
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 14th, 2010 at 05:40 PM |
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I'm sure Rod will sort it out for you.
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 14th, 2010 at 06:28 PM |
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dave, we had at least 2mm before coil bind at full lift when we fit the 1.4 rockers about 4 months ago.. we did have to adjust all the valves at the
end of the first day as they were all loose,only adjusted them weeks prior...
i did have a 6800 limiter a few weeks ago when i had a 009, but now i have just installed a cb magnaspark diizzy.what do i use as a limiter with
this??
how do i find why they would loose pressure...
matt, what has a valve not getting full lift got to do with the floating? sorry for the amuture questions guys, still learning the game..
derro, after checking the in car vid cam, i quite frequently was shifting earlier then i normaly would..
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 14th, 2010 at 10:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by cnfabo
we did have to adjust all the valves at the end of the first day as they were all loose,only adjusted them weeks prior...
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did you not stop and think.. "why is the gap increasing ???" !
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 14th, 2010 at 11:12 PM |
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nope, tell us why the gap increased craig.....
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matberry
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| posted on May 15th, 2010 at 12:12 AM |
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Have you checked the valves again, since experiencing the problems? If so had the clearances increased again?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Sides
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| posted on May 15th, 2010 at 09:09 AM |
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What's your thinking Matt & Craig... that the increasing gap is from the springs not pulling the valves fully closed or something ???
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mactaylor
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 06:47 AM |
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dunno but it almost sounds like lifter probs and a flat cam to me.
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 01:46 PM |
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thats what i initualy thought, but whats the chances of every lobe going flat..... ill check tappets again today..
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 02:37 PM |
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Think about it........when you set your tappets , where is the lifter in relation to the cam lobe ?.........well its at the base of the circle, so
even if you were losing the top off the lobe ("flat cam") it wont affect the clearance at the tappets will it ! 
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Gracey
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 03:41 PM |
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Cams aren't the only things that go flat, lifters going flat is just as common.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 04:08 PM |
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good luck with your problem then.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 04:19 PM |
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I was helping, I was steering you in the right direction !
First ring the person who sold you the motor and they can ask the person who built it what to do....
Personally, new springs may help the valve floating but its certainly not going to answer why your tappets gaps are increasing.
You said you have put the 1.4's on recently, maybe you should start looking there.
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RodPenrose
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| posted on May 16th, 2010 at 07:28 PM |
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Chris , I have done some research and have found a suitable spring for you to use . I am glad you took the time to call me rather than take some
peoples advice that dont build engines . There are a few options I have for you from a few different companies and I will call you , ROD , 02-42729920
.
More boost + More fuel = More power
1968 Beetle fastest run 8.96 sec @ 161 mph 4th Nov. 2001
2010 New Beetle 8.12 sec on 8th march 2014
http://www.rodpenroseracing.com.au
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RodPenrose
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| posted on May 17th, 2010 at 08:42 AM |
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Craig , Upholsterer yes , Engine builder yes , Owner and builder of Australias fastest vw yes . I have been building performance vw engines for almost
20 years and have been racing them for even longer . I am not a mechanic and have never claimed to be a mechanic , I have learnt to build engines by
myself . I think that I am a little bit qualified to give advice and help out my customers . You seem to think that you are a good vw engine builder
by some of the bad advice that you give , but I suppose you are only a chemist and need to sell thrush cream to give correct advice , and need other
people to build your engines . Let me know if I am wrong , I am always interested in different engine combinations and would like to know all about
your engine builds , ROD.
More boost + More fuel = More power
1968 Beetle fastest run 8.96 sec @ 161 mph 4th Nov. 2001
2010 New Beetle 8.12 sec on 8th march 2014
http://www.rodpenroseracing.com.au
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 17th, 2010 at 08:50 AM |
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Don't hold back Rod, say what you think! No, wait, perhaps you shouldn't.
Cheers, Greg
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 17th, 2010 at 11:30 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by RodPenrose
Chris , I have done some research and have found a suitable spring for you to use . I am glad you took the time to call me rather than take some
peoples advice that dont build engines . There are a few options I have for you from a few different companies and I will call you , ROD , 02-42729920
.
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Rod, how is my advice wrong ?
If you think I'm giving wrong advice, It would be great to hear how YOU think the replacement springs will help fix the increased tappet clearances
that Chris is experiencing.........oh and then maybe I can show you how to use that cream you ordered
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 vanderaj
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| posted on May 17th, 2010 at 03:21 PM |
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Let's all back a step here. This thread is >< this close to disintegrating.
@Rod and Chris - I suggest you folks work out what went wrong. I think many would be interested in the results. Constructive & positive wins every
time.
@All - please keep it civil, or the thread is toast.
thanks,
Andrew
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cnfabo
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 posted on May 17th, 2010 at 03:27 PM |
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no worries andrew....
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RodPenrose
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 09:09 AM |
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Andrew , Nothing went wrong with this engine of chris' . I have advised him on what to do and not what to do with the maintanance of his engine . I
dont need people like Torrens butting in with stupid remarks that other peple may take as good advice . Chris asked in another post about valve float
, and Torrens replied that valve float will not hurt his engine . This is in fact not true and to the other people on this site that read this info
may beleive this and this may cause some damage to other engies . I had assembled Chris' engine with a FK 8 camshaft and a set of 1.25 rockers . This
was to be a good reliable combination . Chris after a few races wanted more from his combination and wanted to up-grade to a set of 1.4 rockers . I
had advised against this as the maintanance of the valve train and especially the valve springs would receive a lot more abuse from the faster opening
and closing of the valves . Now that chris has changed to the larger rockers the springs have lost their tension . I have found a good solution to the
valve springs and will recomend the Bugpac race springs . The CB 650 springs that are available are good but are only suitable for exrteme lifts . The
Scat springs are quite good but do not have the tension required at full lift . So Andrew , I have come to the conclusion that giving bad advise on
this site will cause someone to either have a faliure of some kind or cost them a lot of money . I have a lot of respect for Chris as he askes the
questions before he does something , and to get an answer from someone that does not have a clue is wrong . I have seen the past posts of Torrens on
this site and cant seem to find anything real constructive , ROD.
edited by barls for language.
More boost + More fuel = More power
1968 Beetle fastest run 8.96 sec @ 161 mph 4th Nov. 2001
2010 New Beetle 8.12 sec on 8th march 2014
http://www.rodpenroseracing.com.au
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76bug
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 10:46 AM |
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some good info there Rod. just to clarify do you believe the valve springs losing thier tension will cause the increasing tappet clearance that chris
was experiencing or would that be some other issue(perhaps with the adjuster)? this will be helpful info when i come to choose what valve springs to
run, thanks in advance.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 11:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by RodPenrose
Andrew , Nothing went wrong with this engine of chris' . I have advised him on what to do and not what to do with the maintanance of his engine . I
dont need people like Torrens butting in with stupid remarks that other peple may take as good advice . Chris asked in another post about valve float
, and Torrens replied that valve float will not hurt his engine . This is in fact not true and to the other people on this site that read this info
may beleive this and this may cause some damage to other engies . I had assembled Chris' engine with a FK 8 camshaft and a set of 1.25 rockers . This
was to be a good reliable combination . Chris after a few races wanted more from his combination and wanted to up-grade to a set of 1.4 rockers . I
had advised against this as the maintanance of the valve train and especially the valve springs would receive a lot more abuse from the faster opening
and closing of the valves . Now that chris has changed to the larger rockers the springs have lost their tension . I have found a good solution to the
valve springs and will recomend the Bugpac race springs . The CB 650 springs that are available are good but are only suitable for exrteme lifts . The
Scat springs are quite good but do not have the tension required at full lift . So Andrew , I have come to the conclusion that giving bad advise on
this site will cause someone to either have a faliure of some kind or cost them a lot of money . I have a lot of respect for Chris as he askes the
questions before he does something , and to get an answer from someone that does not have a clue is wrong . I have seen the past posts of Torrens on
this site and cant seem to find anything real constructive , ROD.
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Hi Rod,
at the end of the day not all people will get on with each other,so the fact that you think I'm a d#$%^& is fine by me.
With regards to giving advice, this is an open forum for ALL to give their views/advice/suggestions, and whether you think I'm right or wrong is only
your opinion.........I'm sure the reader/viewer is educated enough to make up their own mind who to believe/trust.
You are obviously passionate about giving what you believe is the 'right' advice, so here is an opportunity for you to share why you think Chris's
tappet clearances are increasing......so whats your thought on that?
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squizy
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 01:09 PM |
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I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others
as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 01:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by squizy
I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others
as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.
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The reason that you can't see the offending post, is because it has been removed! I wonder who did that, Craig?
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 18th, 2010 at 02:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
| Quote: | Originally
posted by squizy
I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others
as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.
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The reason that you can't see the offending post, is because it has been removed! I wonder who did that, Craig?
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Hi Greg, no I didn't remove any post.......nor have I said anything offending.
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