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 Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 08:57 PM |
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Building Engine for Torque
Hey all.
Poor old Alyce's engine is starting to get a little tired. So I'm starting to throw ideas around for a rebuild.
I drive the car daily so I need a reliable engine, that's halfway reasonable on fuel.
The car is also regularly taken offroad. What mods/parts should I use to maximise the low down torque for offroading?
Does more stoke = more torque? Like in a diesel? Or is it a different set of rules for petrol flat fours?
Can you buy a cam that is ground for more torque? I don't really mind about sacrificing a few revs either. It's not a race car, I use it offroad and
as long as she pulls 120km/h on the highway for overtaking I'm not too phased.
Any thoughts/suggestions/ideas/combinations will be appreciated. What combo would you recommend?
Thanks in advance.
Smiley 
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baghall
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:18 PM |
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Sorry smiley can't help you with tech info but would encourage people to give generously with info cause I am interested in this topic as well.
What engine are you currently running smiley?
68 Baja - It's a growing pain!
58 Baja ute - and the pain spreads!
85 T3 Kombi - still growing
89 T3 Kombi - parts car
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Smiley
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by baghall
Sorry smiley can't help you with tech info but would encourage people to give generously with info cause I am interested in this topic as well.
What engine are you currently running smiley?
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As far as I know it's a 1300 singleport. It's running a 1500 single port manifold, with a 31PICT carb, and 009 dissy. Oil is currently leaking from
everywhere, and judging by the noises and rattles it's making and the slowly declining power I might have maybe 6 months tops left in her.
Smiley
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 matberry
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:35 PM |
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I'd recommend a 1915 as a first upgrade. Heads and carbs depends on what you can afford, but definately displacement is the easiest first step in the
search for more torque and bottom end grunt.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
I'd recommend a 1915 as a first upgrade. Heads and carbs depends on what you can afford, but definately displacement is the easiest first step in the
search for more torque and bottom end grunt.
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Are 1915 reliable? That's what I'm chasing more than anything else. I do around 30000km a year minimum in the vehicle so I want it to last as long
as possible.
Smiley
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matberry
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:46 PM |
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You can make any engine reliable. It's the parts you use and the assembly details that make an engine provide the best power and most reliability.
Also careful attention to the complete build.....cooling system and lubrication improvements are the most obvious yet regularly overlooked upgrades. I
expect after the basic rebuilding costs, some people can't afford to do all the required improvements or just are in the dark as to what is required
when you increase the power output sometimes twofold and beyond.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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fish26
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:49 PM |
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good type 4 with upright conversion, torque + longevity.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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Smiley
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
You can make any engine reliable. It's the parts you use and the assembly details that make an engine provide the best power and most reliability.
Also careful attention to the complete build.....cooling system and lubrication improvements are the most obvious yet regularly overlooked upgrades. I
expect after the basic rebuilding costs, some people can't afford to do all the required improvements or just are in the dark as to what is required
when you increase the power output sometimes twofold and beyond.
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Ok. I understand what you're saying. So lets build me an engine, on this thread, what would be required?
1600 twin relief case as a starting point? Bored out to 94mm.
What's next?
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fish26
good type 4 with upright conversion, torque + longevity.
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I've heard that they are a lot heavier than a type 1 and that the cost to rebuild them is heaps too. Is there any truth to these rumours?
Smiley
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matberry
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 10:57 PM |
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Type 4 is good too, I have one in my baja. They have great torque, but I also believe more $$ to build. As a starter you could buy a running Type 4
and spend the bucks to do the conversion, and later hot it up when you feel the need.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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 barls
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:02 PM |
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i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also
including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without
slowing on hills.
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Smiley
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by barls
i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also
including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without
slowing on hills.
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40kg is a fair difference when it's hanging out the back. My car already understeers quite badly in the wet.
Smiley
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fish26
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:09 PM |
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They are not much heavier and marginally more expensive if you are building a stock type 4, see if you can find a low km rebuilt longblock and work
from there.
If you want a type 1, I would build a 1776 with mild cam , stock valve slight port heads, stock flywheel, full flow, etc.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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matberry
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
So lets build me an engine, on this thread, what would be required?
1600 twin relief case as a starting point? Bored out to 94mm.
What's next?
Smiley
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Minimum and off the cuff
Reground/balanced stock crank
Reconditioned rods
94mm bore kit
Cam and lifters (new IMO)
Bearings
Seals
Heads.....this is where variations start come into it. Carbs and heads and custom chambers/ports etc etc. Once some improvements are made here you
then need to upgrade valve train components.
Full flow mods
Head mods for effecient chambers and cool running
Oil pump
Then extras that are normally going to be required
Clutch upgrade
Exhaust
balancing
oils and filters and ignition components
Sounds cheap........ 
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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fish26
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:14 PM |
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I like the wavelength you're on Matt.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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barls
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
| Quote: | Originally
posted by barls
i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also
including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without
slowing on hills.
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40kg is a fair difference when it's hanging out the back. My car already understeers quite badly in the wet.
Smiley
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not really when you consider some of that is the dyno mat i installed as i said, back parcel shelf and other areas. is say no more
than 25kg in the engine once its stripped back to long block.
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fish26
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| posted on February 23rd, 2011 at 11:16 PM |
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I worked mine out between 20-22kg depending on configuration. F#%$k all really, and also narrower so easy to tune the carbs.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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vlad01
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 12:05 PM |
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type 4 FTW!
nuf said.
71 notchback,
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Carter
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 01:40 PM |
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type 4 engine. last longer cases better suited to more power / torque. get rid of stock type 4 cam, replace with something slightly lumpier, dual
carbs (dellorto's imo), go.
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Smiley
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 06:00 PM |
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I don't really think I can afford to go to a type 4 engine.
It's not going to be a cheap exercise.
Smiley
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Joel
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 06:13 PM |
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Type 4 fits the bill but definately not very budget effective.
I started a type 4 conversion on my bug back in 2002 and stopped cos of costs back then, can only imagine what its like now.
Finding a good core to rebuild can be tricky, most have been raped in overloaded and under maintained kombis for the last 30+ years by careless
owners.
Carbs, cam and exhaust can make or break a torquester engine.
If it was me I'd be building a 1776 or 1916 with with stock carb, mild cam like a w100 and a decent exhaust, and abit of head work if budget
allows.
That should give you a good balance of power, torque, fuel mileage and lifespan but be good offroad too.
Again thats just me though.
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Smiley
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 06:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Type 4 fits the bill but definately not very budget effective.
I started a type 4 conversion on my bug back in 2002 and stopped cos of costs back then, can only imagine what its like now.
Finding a good core to rebuild can be tricky, most have been raped in overloaded and under maintained kombis for the last 30+ years by careless
owners.
Carbs, cam and exhaust can make or break a torquester engine.
If it was me I'd be building a 1776 or 1916 with with stock carb, mild cam like a w100 and a decent exhaust, and abit of head work if budget
allows.
That should give you a good balance of power, torque, fuel mileage and lifespan but be good offroad too.
Again thats just me though.
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That's for your advice. What is a w100? I don't speak cam.
I was thinking about a 1916 but was talking to one of my friends up here today and he said that the walls are thinner than a 1776. And I have to watch
how hot it's going to be given the heat up here.
Smiley
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Joel
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 06:33 PM |
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If you get good quality P&C kit the difference between 90.5 and 94 is minimal.
It's the same work to bore for both and kits generally cost the same anyway.
They actually make a thick walled 92mm kit now thats thicker than both of them. uses 94mm bore size.
You don't wanna go too aggressive with the cam when making an engine for off road seeing as 1 minute it will be low revving along then next flat
stick up a hill.
W100 is pretty well the baby of engle cams, going bigger is geared more toward twin carb street engines
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 24th, 2011 at 07:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
I was thinking about a 1916 but was talking to one of my friends up here today and he said that the walls are thinner than a 1776. And I have to watch
how hot it's going to be given the heat up here.
Smiley
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Dont listen to that proganda bullsh*t, 94's are fine
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vlad01
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 06:27 AM |
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94's are one of the thicker jugs but have the least surface area because there fins are smaller due to the size of the jug eating away from that
area.
So yes watch for heat, No. 1 enemy of the air cooled engine or any engine for the mater of fact.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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matberry
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 07:55 AM |
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The biggest trap is that as engine displacement increases, all things staying equal, your compression ratio also increases. This is because CR is the
ratio of the engine capacity divided into the combustion chamber volume. So for every engine combo, the CR needs to be adjusted and it's how you do
this that can make the engine efficient (read cooler running and more power) or inefficient (read hot and sluggish). That IMO is why so many bigger
engines end up with the bad rap of being unreliable. Set the CR correctly and have an effective cooling system and any engine size available to
you.......I'm presently planning a 2550 for a client and I'm sure he doesn't want it unreliable .
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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BiX
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 12:24 PM |
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My Old motor was a great little torque motor.
1776,
Balanced std crank and rods
W100 cam
Stock heads with a 3 angle valve job and mild port and polish
009
full flow, with filter and extra cooler (though it ran cool most of the time, unless you drove for about 20 mins or in the peak of summer)
CR was about 8:1, I think a little step up from the std, but not buy much
Twin 40mm Dells
semi merged extraactors
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hellbugged
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 12:54 PM |
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some well written/explained advice there matt!
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Smiley
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 02:04 PM |
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So what's a good CR to aim for with a 1776/1916 engine?
And where do people buy there parts from? I might price up a few different engine combinations and see what suits me best. I'm not looking from a
slagging of businesses, I just want to know where you buy your high quality engine parts from? And what brand are they?
Have been looking at the CB Performance website, but $186 for a stroker crank seems a little cheap? Prove me wrong?
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1185
Smiley
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Smiley
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| posted on March 2nd, 2011 at 07:52 PM |
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So no one on here has ever bought quality engine parts before?
If you not comfortable posting up on the thread with where you get stuff from PM me. But I really need to know ASAP because the engine in my vehicle
is going downhill fast!
I've decided to go with a 1915, stock bottom end, stock heads with a polish out, stock cam ( or should I use the W100?) twin
Kadrons/webbers/somethings. Running full flow oiling with an external spin on filter and maybe an external cooler.
Can anyone see any problems with this setup? What is wrong? What should I change? Any advice appreciated.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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