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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 08:25 PM
Upright cooling vs pancake cooling
Gday all.
OK, all practical experiences welcomed here please.
Apparently the upright Type I cools the barrels better than the Type III, but I have heard the Type III pancake cooling helps to keep the heads
cooler, but only while moving. So I'm guessing slightly lower oil temps for the Type I and slightly lower cylinder head temps for the Type III,
although I know both work OK. The late Kombi pancake motor seems to cool better than both across the board, does anyone know if this is a function of
increased fan size/capacity, more effective fins on barrel and heads, more effective cooling tin shape?
Up in the Territory I used an upright fan on a Type III, with ducted air from the inner rear arches to attempt to get the best of both worlds, and it
seemed to do that in practise.
This is for a Type III Fastback I want to do up. Summer temps normally average well over 40*C for 4 months of the year where I live. I don't give a
stuff for originality if I can't drive it to work for half the year coz it gets hot (and it's just a rolling shell, so I can do it from scratch).
Tuning obviously has a large effect, but I'm experienced with the tuning side, it's just I'm not sure which way to go for the ultimate cooling
system. I can adapt late Kombi, upright, Type III pancake, DTM, Porsche-style, whatever, onto the engine I have planned (custom Oxyboxer, bits of Type
I and Type IV), fabrications aren't a problem.
What do the cooling experts reckon is the ultimate air-cooling set-up?
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All of VWs cooling systems were designed for those particular vehicles.
When you start trying to outsmart German engineers mixing and matching without proper testing equipment most of the time you're just pissing into the
wind.
1000s of people have tried to improve on stock cooling system and about the only one thats done it is Raby with the DTM.
The type3 cooling setup is very well designed and works well but only in type3s
You stick one in the back of a buggy or baja beetle it's gonna run hot, all the fan does then is suck in all the hot air of the heads and exhaust.
Same deal with sticking an upright engine in a type3, unless you duct the cool air from the side vents into the fan and carbs and make sure the fan
isnt recirculation hot air you're not achieving anything.
Stock type3s survive hot climates like Texas in 110F + temps usually with the added load of A/C as well.
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 08:44 PM
I properly tuned and unmolested motor will not need extra cooling and cool just fine, even in high ambient temps.
the best cooling by far is the DTM upright system. Now that would be interesting in a type 3.
fresh outside air ducted to the engine bay, while a completely sealed off engine tin, which would have to be custom made.
That would unsure not hot waste air is recirculated.
I plan this also, but only coz i want a 2.9L type 4 engine
A lot of careful engineering in my scenario is required.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 09:31 PM
The original German engineers were very clever, no doubt about it. However, they also found the original design limitations in Nth Africa pretty
quickly. I'm not trying to outsmart them, just trying to adapt improved later VW tech.
110F here is 9am, try 130F......
The Territory Type III I had with upright tins fed by the rear wheel arches lived in 48*C with 90% humidity, just. I did this because I was sick of
wearing out engines with std pancake cooling after only 30K. It had 5" PVC downpipes feeding into a 10" round cylinder, which fed the back of the up
right tin with a sealed shroud. Although very effective, it takes away the useable and handy rear space.
I had considered the DTM with the custom air feeds, but if late Kombi can be adapted it would leave my "boot" area unmolested.
This isn't for a standard 1600, otherwise I would leave it stock and fit micro-misters for extreme temps (works very well by the way). This is for a
2L-ish motor with well over 100rwhp. I am trying to combine the best bits of the original engineers to achieve an acceptable standard.
Thanks for all replies so far, just trying to see what is possible, and what has been tried.
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 09:38 PM
Tell us more about "micro misters", sounds interesting.
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 09:47 PM
It was a stroke of genius man, which is why my 3yr old daughter came up with it, not me! Well, sort of anyway!
I placed 2 little micro misters, like the sort you use in your patio to keep you cool, one on each side of the fan intake at the back of the fan
housing, fed by a little windscreen washer bottle, through a 1mm restriction inline. When cyl head temps got over 350F, I pressed a little button on
the dash and fine water mist went through the intake fan.
The simple things are often the best!
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 10:20 PM
My order of preference would be DTM, Porsche, Type IV. It really depends on the priorty of the boot space issue, if very important go the type IV
cooling, I've had a 7000rpm 1970cc 914 with 110 rwhp pushing a baja bus in 40* heat in soft sand, it lived to tell the tale, in fact the engine is
still a runner. If you are planning all the fruit on the oxyboxer, my thoughts are that the carbs and manifolds will be into the luggage area anyway,
so I lean towards the upright cooling if you can get a lot of fresh air to the fan and keep the hot air away from the intake.
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Cool a water cooled aircooled! You've gotta love the simply ideas, I've thought about it but never tried it.
Questions:
How much did it drop head temp by?
How long did you have it on for, like 5 or 10 seconds?
How quickly did the temp drop?
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 11:02 PM
Hi
I'm going to build a big oxy boxer (88x94) for my sons bug eventually after I get my bug finished. Richard at V Force is playing around with electric
fans like Westy used, looks promising, but Im waiting to see results.
Steve
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posted on March 21st, 2011 at 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally
posted by Gracey
How much did it drop head temp by?
How long did you have it on for, like 5 or 10 seconds?
How quickly did the temp drop?
I just pressed the push-button for a few seconds, and over the next 30secs - 1min the head temp dropped by about 10-20F. If I needed a bigger drop, I
pressed it for another few seconds. Just enough to take the edge off the nasty heat cycle, usually while idling or driving like a complete twat!
Mat, if you don't mind me asking, the Type IV is my preference, did you adapt the typeIV cooling to a type I, or use the whole motor? Being an
Oxyboxer, and not having bought anything for the top yet, I could possibly adapt Type IV top, although Type I would be much easier! I'm thinking 92mm
thick cylinders with the standard bloody strong 76mm throw, I wonder if the Type IV tin could be adapted to a Type I block?
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posted on March 22nd, 2011 at 12:01 AM
why nto just fit the t4 motor complete with its cooling system, saves stuffing around with modifying.
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posted on March 22nd, 2011 at 12:05 AM
also isnt an oxy boxer the 1.9L/2.1L watercooled engine out of a t3 kombi converted to air cooled?
therefore a type V engine where as the type 4 is the 1800/2L out of the t2 kombi
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posted on March 22nd, 2011 at 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally
posted by barls
why nto just fit the t4 motor complete with its cooling system, saves stuffing around with modifying.
+1
with the type 1 market dead many many years ago and littered with poor china parts.
Only logical choice is T4 engine.
type 1 engines can kiss my hairy ass!
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
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posted on March 22nd, 2011 at 08:22 AM
Ha ha ha ha, type 1 market dead, you have to be joking, there has never been more affordable engine parts available and if parts are setup and checked
properly there are no reliability issues either.
Anyway, I never said putting type IV cooling on an oxyboxer would be easy, and no I haven't done it, but I strongly dislike type 3 cooling, mainly
the fan itself. Having said that, I now remember being taken for a spin in a type 3 oxyboxer in the late 90's. Built and driven by Unwin the oxyboxer
pioneer, they had no cooling problems BUT they weren't in north Qld seeing 40* days.
Comes down to budget, but for 150hp or more, after rethinking what I said, the easiest option would be type 3 cooling, but put effort in an efficient
engine, both in respect of cooling, cr and power. Would you entertain the idea of piston, barrel and chamber coatings, or even the best on the planet
for a cool engine....Nickies Of course ultimate would be Nickies and JPM
heads with all the extra cooling fins and alloy barrels she'd hardly get hot.
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posted on March 23rd, 2011 at 04:24 PM
Nickies would be the shot! Pity that for the price of a set I could build the whole motor. I'm using the std crank coz the money saved will almost
pay for the heads. I'd just rather spend the money elsewhere.
I had considered the Type IV, but the 2.1 motor is already there, so might as well use it.
I only need to keep it cool on those stupid hot mid days. Doesn't matter if it's a 1000hp motor, it only needs 25hp to hold it at 110kph, I'm just
trying to keep the cooling to a manageable level so I only need to build it once, not every few years for a freshen-up.
Although it would be nice to have a bit of extra rear boot space, the intakes will probably go up into each side anyway, once sealed off from the
middle no-one will really know.
I might do the scrounge around the wreckers to see if the bigger Kombi fan can be adapted to the front pulley for a bit more airflow, it might work,
and use the micro-misters again.
Thanks again for everyone's responses, much appreciated.
Of course ultimate would be Nickies and JPM
heads with all the extra cooling fins and alloy barrels she'd hardly get hot.
