| [ Total Views: 1151 | Total Replies: 18 | Thread Id: 90326 ] |
|
|
 acemarc
Casual Dubber
Posts: 41
Threads: 21
Registered: July 6th, 2010
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 7th, 2011 at 01:39 PM |
|
|
high speed handling
Is it just mine or are all fastbacks prone to wandering when they get over 90kph?
|
|
|
 Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12757
Threads: 732
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 7th, 2011 at 01:45 PM |
|
|
just yours 
There is something the matter if its doing that
GTMac has a WRX in his and it does WAY more that that (off road use only  ) and he hasent done THAT much to the suspension
Torsion bar upgrade, KYB Gas and decent rubber
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
waveman1500
Custom Title Time!
Also rides a Honda
Posts: 1346
Threads: 13
Registered: December 17th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 7th, 2011 at 01:57 PM |
|
|
The Type 3 front ends are prone to wandering when the bushes in the front beam wear. These control side-to-side motion of the torsion bars. They can
be adjusted to take the slack out of them.
|
|
|
acemarc
Casual Dubber
Posts: 41
Threads: 21
Registered: July 6th, 2010
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 7th, 2011 at 02:02 PM |
|
|
Thanks waveman - constructive replies are good.
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 05:59 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
The Type 3 front ends are prone to wandering when the bushes in the front beam wear. These control side-to-side motion of the torsion bars. They
can be adjusted to take the slack out of them.
|
mmm? not really. only the top control arm can be adjusted and its more of a preload not slack adjustment.
to replace the bearing in the beam need special tools from VW to remove the Bakelite bushings and bearings (extremely risky as they are NOT available
and break easy) and the correct bearing diameter as there were a few different sizes. And to make it worse they are NOS only and typically 50-75
each.
There is a thread on the samba about this. only a small hand full of people have successfully done this.
Wonder at high speed indicates a problem as this is not normal.
check for slack in the tie rod ends first as these wear out way way before the other components, then check pitman arm and steering box shaft slack,
then the ball joints,(not typically worn even for the age) last would be of course the control arm bearings and shafts.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
Old Rusty_VW
Casual Dubber
Posts: 29
Threads: 1
Registered: March 14th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 07:14 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
The Type 3 front ends are prone to wandering when the bushes in the front beam wear. These control side-to-side motion of the torsion bars. They
can be adjusted to take the slack out of them.
|
mmm? not really. only the top control arm can be adjusted and its more of a preload not slack adjustment.
WAnder at high speed indicates a problem as this is not normal.
|
Definetly NOT preloaded. Top swaybar is adjusted on the right hand side to provide a slight clearance between upper trailing arm and the thrust face
on the beam. If the adjusting screw is tightened to preload the swaybar (swaybar placed under tension under static load) the suspension won't
freely move and will cause more handling problems.
Rusty
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 07:47 PM |
|
|
yes thats to preload the the arm with 7.5ft-lb
anything that you tension in any amount especially bearings is preloading in my books. I don't know what analogy you use? but that definitely
preloading.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
Super Administrator
Mad fabricator, paint and body
Posts: 7386
Threads: 312
Registered: September 1st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: In the garage chopping cars into bits
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: In the thinking chair
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 07:55 PM |
|
|
Does a Type 3 have a steering damper?
A small amount of toe-in on alignment of 1-2mm is known to remove wander tendencies if they are present.
A toe-in alignment would only cost $25, and any wheel align place can do this,, in fact you can actually do it at home if you are handy.
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 07:57 PM |
|
|
yes they do have a steering damper.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
BRUTUS
A.k.a.: et tu, Brute
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 255
Threads: 17
Registered: February 8th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Brutus has retyred
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ACE 30 FOR SALE!
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 09:45 PM |
|
|
In our experience type 3's should generally be more stable at all speeds than beetles. Type thres should start to feel "right" above 90kph, when
beetles (nippier at low speeds) may start to feel beyond their comfort zone. If there is a side wind, Fastbacks can feel unhappy however. Is it
really wandering, or vagueness, or a shimmy?
Steering damper 'issues' should be most noticable at ~80kph, and may be more severe than on a bug.
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 10:04 PM |
|
|
yeah type 3 are really stable if the suspension is in perfect working order. Even speeds up to 90 MPH I have felt safe as safe can be.
The brakes at that speed is another story
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
BRUTUS
A.k.a.: et tu, Brute
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 255
Threads: 17
Registered: February 8th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Brutus has retyred
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ACE 30 FOR SALE!
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 11:10 PM |
|
|
B-I (in fact a F/B) was consistently "solid" feeling to 100mph, when no X-wind. (Many years ago c 2L. In right conditions would have felt OK to go
faster.) They cut through the air like a beetle... doesn't.
[Yes Vlad. The much bigger "early type 4" brakes (callipers & pads) on the '72 & '73 should have been introduced earlier. Up to '71brakes aren't quite up with the rest of the package.] It seems acemarc has a '73 so he will feel safer at high speeds now... Oh-oh...
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
|
|
|
Old Rusty_VW
Casual Dubber
Posts: 29
Threads: 1
Registered: March 14th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 8th, 2011 at 11:30 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
yes thats to preload the the arm with 7.5ft-lb
anything that you tension in any amount especially bearings is preloading in my books. I don't know what analogy you use? but that definitely
preloading.
|
Straight from the manual, the setting up of the swaybar on a Type 3 has the swaybar balljoints disconnected both sides. The adjusting screw is
tightened just enough to allow the arms to drop under their own weight. As the thrust faces are that of a plain, not needle thrust, there can be no
preload. Preloading is used with anti friction (rolling) bearings. This is not the case here. Disconnecting the balljoints would be the method
used in a rebuild. In running repair practice, the balljoints aren't generally disconnected so care must be taken not to put the swaybar under
tension by tightening the axial adjusting set screw too tightly. There must be a very small amount of axial free play to allow the grease lubricant
to work. These are engineering facts, not some personal analogy I'm plucking out of the air.
Rusty
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 9th, 2011 at 04:54 AM |
|
|
My manual says to the same to disconnect the upper ball joints, then remove the locking plate on the right side, loosen the adjusting screw, then
torque it to 7.5ft-lb to preload the upper arms against the thrust face, then check it drops under its own weight in a controlled speed, if good lock
the plate again.
simple really. I don't even know why you are arguing about the use of the word preload? It commonly used between engineers, mechanics and type 3
enthusiast in a broad sense regarding this situation.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
Old Rusty_VW
Casual Dubber
Posts: 29
Threads: 1
Registered: March 14th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 9th, 2011 at 10:02 AM |
|
|
The use of preload here gives the wrong message to the backyard mechanic when taking up slack in a swaybar on a Type 3. Most haven't even got a
torque wrench! I do happen to know about the word "preload" as well as "endfloat" as used by engineers as I have been in the mechanical
engineering sceene for many years and do know just a tad on the subject. Even though I haven't had a Type 3 for many years I have worked on them
quite a lot since 1967 with qualified VW mechanics to present day.
If we tighten to exclude the clearance for lubrication we have metal to metal contact resulting in wear.
End of my involvement on the subject.
Rusty
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 9th, 2011 at 03:37 PM |
|
|
ok sorry my bad its 7ft-lb not 7.5ft-lb.
I feel like such and idiot, I can't tell people to torque it 0.5 pound more, that will make it too tight.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
MY68VW
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 181
Threads: 25
Registered: August 23rd, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Narellan Vale
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: fresh metal
|
| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 09:57 PM |
|
|
Maybe acemarc used the term "wondering" in regard to it being a rear engined car and having no weight over the front wheels. Or is it just me who
can "feel the road" a great deal more than in front engined cars.
At high speed I have no problem unless the wheels are out of balance, air pressure off etc.. My square is in the zone at 70-90 and happy at 100, the
rev limiter wont let me go much faster though I think it could handle it.
But yeah, umm, stopping!
Tuned Type IV power - shaking out the rust.
|
|
|
vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
Posts: 4270
Threads: 109
Registered: June 3rd, 2010
Member Is Offline
Location: Kyneton, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Side ways
|
| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 09:37 PM |
|
|
rev limiter?...........??
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
|
|
HappyDaze
A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Superannuated
Posts: 2887
Threads: 141
Registered: June 13th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: Southern Highlands NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy enough
|
| posted on May 31st, 2011 at 08:53 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
rev limiter?...........??
|
Yeah???.... Wonder what her name is???
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
|
|
|
