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 General_Failure
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| posted on May 28th, 2011 at 01:55 PM |
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Adding a VSS?
I know you're saying "Huh?", and wondering why someone with an EA81 could possibly want one. Well, it's like this;
I discovered that the cruise control in our dead Magna is pretty much an independent system and it looks like it may also support manual
transmissions. besides switches etc. to monitor the pedals and three control buttons, all it really needs is a VSS.
The Mitsubishi VSS seems to supply 4 pulses per revolution. Even though the VW runs larger wheels I know I could get away with something compatible if
it were just cruise.
I would be more than happy with more pulses per revolution as I'm pretty sure I could make a conversion box without too much hassle which would let
me calibrate based on wheel circumference too.
What was I getting at? Oh yeah. I discovered that the much sought after digital gauge cluster from out 1st gen Magna fits in the VW gauge cluster hole
nicely with space on the side for the cold air lever. Besides needing a whole pile of blade connectors, the cluster seems pretty compatible as its
signals are raw. Even the tach is a coil feed. The only difference is the electronic speedo.
My thinking is this would be a fiddly but easy install and would allow me to eliminate all the gauges sticking out from holders around the place.
So far I'm only speculating, but so far the only issue I can see is with the speedometer needing a pulse.
I know the photo is in my thread but here it is for reference.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Joel
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| posted on May 28th, 2011 at 05:46 PM |
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So it hasnt got an ordinary speedo cable input on the back?
nearly all the 80s digital LCD clusters like the elante/elite magnas, subi vortex, toyota soarer etc used a normal speedo cable and the VSS was inside
the cluster.
Easiest solution would be a proximity sensor and a wheel of death like I've got, you just need to find out if it needs an NPN or a PNP signal but
nearly all back then were NPN.
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Ben386
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| posted on May 28th, 2011 at 10:31 PM |
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Mr Failure,
Im am not familiar with your engine,but this cable driven vss may interest you.
http://www.rjes.com/html/vss.html
I did think that pre ej25 98-01 did not require a vss.
I am using the second one that mounts to the back of a T3/T25 speedo.
All good, no fault codes or engine light.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 28th, 2011 at 11:35 PM |
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Joel: No speedo input. just VSS. The digital cluster got its signal from the tranny. The analog had a cable and a reed switch for cruise.
Ah... do you mean like low-high-low as opposed to high-low-high? Just asking because NPN and PNP are different substrate arrangements in a transistor
which could also be valid.
Thanks for the link Ben386. That info is solid gold with the speedo cable fitting. My engine is something very simple and not far removed from an ACVW
engine. The VSS isn't remotely necessary as-is. But I do have this nice cruise control system just sitting there and a set of instruments which by
sheer coincidence will fit pretty easily into the dash. I'm at a halt with the resurrection right now anyway because I'm out of $ and resources so a
bit of a side project seemed interesting.
Another question. I know ages back an instrumentation swap didn't require engineering as long as the new speedo had an odometer. is that still the
case?
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 10:04 AM |
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I can't find anything on needing certification to shove this cluster in. Am I missing something? Still not sure I want to do it, but it is a "bolt
on" mod of sorts. No alteration to the original vehicle is necessary. Well, almost none. I figure I might have to move the (non functional) knee vent
/ top vent control. I'd probably do that with a choke cable kit and put it in line with the other knobs, and put a lit toggle or pushbutton next to
it labelled "Heat" which will drive the heater fan. Too hot (as if that could happen) open the front flap.
I like Joel's Wheel of Death" idea. I just hope the digital cluster doesn't need signal conditioning. I like the neatness of the VSS too. I don't
know.
Does anyone see issue with me lopping off the magna gauge harnesses a half meter or so away from the connectors? I don't think I'd regret it because
all the original VW connectors are blades anyway so I'd have no long cable runs.
What I might do next is photograph and label all the wires on the back of my VW cluster (a lot of additions imagine that!), unplug everything and
ensure the Magna cluster does drop in. I tried flopping the cluster out yesterday but the wires are too short to get it out of the way. my steering
wheel doesn't help either.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Joel
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 10:43 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Ben386
I did think that pre ej25 98-01 did not require a vss.
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Every EJ engine thats fuel injected needs a VSS.
That's so the the computer can work out mixtures on over run mainly, some will run ok and not stall without one but they will all benefit from
having one.
Mines got 1992 engine management and almost used to stall at stops and constanly threw IACV error code when coasting when my VSS stopped working.
many others have also experienced this.
Can even lead to limp mode/rev limiting on OBDII stuff.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Joel: No speedo input. just VSS. The digital cluster got its signal from the tranny. The analog had a cable and a reed switch for cruise.
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You're right, in thinking back to the TP Magna Elite Pop bought new in 89 it had a digital odometer.
WHen that digital LCD speedo craze happened in the 80s most still had old analogue rotary odometers which was why they had a cable still.
With the NPN vs PNP its negative pulse and positive pulse.
Nearly all your 80s and most 90s cars just used a negative square wave pulse but toward the late 90s many manufacturers inclusing Subaru went to PNP
5volt speed sensors.
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ttriebler
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 10:55 AM |
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Stop mucking around and just put a reversed Subie box in. They already have the VSS !!!!!!!!!! 
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 12:20 PM |
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I'll check the manual to be safe, because the testing procedures for the VSS' are a real tell. But I'm 95% sure that they are NPN.
ttriebler, I would love to. Unfortunately the mucking about and cost required for that would be unbelievable. Putting cost aside, The EA81 would be
pretty useless at pushing a bay with longer gearing around. Then it would need an adapter plate of some description anyway because my EA81 has one of
those Sherman engine bellhousing replacements that have the VW stud pattern. Would certification be needed for a subie transmission? Once again, cost
aside a huge nightmare. The closest engineer is interstate and 300 odd km away. the nearest NSW one is about 350km away so there is getting there and
back too.
If no certification is needed and the EA81 would be okay with the subie box and I had an adapter and I could summon up the required $, yeah absolutely
I'd love to! 5 gears would be awesome.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ttriebler
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 01:24 PM |
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I was just joshing. I'm sure your setup is fine.
But you know an EA transmission case is identical to an EJ transmission case right? Except it has the EA bolt pattern. All the EJ goodies fit into the
EA case. So no adaptor plate needed.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 05:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ttriebler
I was just joshing. I'm sure your setup is fine.
But you know an EA transmission case is identical to an EJ transmission case right? Except it has the EA bolt pattern. All the EJ goodies fit into the
EA case. So no adaptor plate needed.
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I didn't know that. Very, very interesting. Hm, maybe I should start collecting parts. The challenge would be to find someone with a trashed EA81
that I could acquire the engine bellhousing from, because like I said mine has been replaced with a VW pattern one.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ttriebler
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 06:32 PM |
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Your EA81 engine doesn't neeed a bellhousing. You unbolt the VW adapter plate and then bolt the EA81 engine straight up to an EA transmission.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 08:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ttriebler
Your EA81 engine doesn't neeed a bellhousing. You unbolt the VW adapter plate and then bolt the EA81 engine straight up to an EA transmission.
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http://www.volksconversions.com.au/adapters.html
Look on here. Their captions are a bit screwed up. Some above, some below the picture. Look at the one below the caption that says "SUBARU - 1400,
1600, EA71 1800, EA81 1800, EA82 O.H.C".
See how there are inner bolt holes. Those replace the engine bellhousing, for lack of a better term. The thing that mates the engine case to the
transmission bellhousing. The other motors have adapters. this one is a replacement. So you see I would need an original Subaru version of that as I
only have the VW drilled version. Of course I'd need a flywheel and starter too.
edit: I should add, that is the same as my thing. A Sherman one.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ttriebler
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 09:20 PM |
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Yep gotcha. I didn't think that they would have removed the ea bellhousing and made a new bellhousing to suit vw. Thought it would be an adapter
plate fitted up like on the EJ's. The EJ's are part of the block. Anyways.....back to the VSS.....
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 29th, 2011 at 10:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ttriebler
Yep gotcha. I didn't think that they would have removed the ea bellhousing and made a new bellhousing to suit vw. Thought it would be an adapter
plate fitted up like on the EJ's. The EJ's are part of the block. Anyways.....back to the VSS.....
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No worries. my research fee is one R&P
I'm still trying to penetrate that vault of a dash on the Magna to get to the cruise control control unit. It's unbelievable. Packed solid behind
there. The only issue I thought of with the Magna cluster was maybe the fuel gauge. The truck one I'm using currently isn't right any more anyway
since I tried changing the light bulb I'm using for current limiting to a smaller one.
Further back to topic. I saw a box on Dakota Digital's web side that converts VSS inputs to a form usable by different gauges. Because I'm cheap /
broke I figure making something like that myself would be the way to go. Hopefully I still have some smaller microcontrollers stockpiled. If not I
guess I'll have to get one. the real issue is how I should go about getting the signal. A proper VSS of some sort, wheel of death or similar (I like
that name. thanks Joel) using hall / optic / various other methods like a reed switch. The crazy in me would like to do something like a notched disc
or daisy wheel of magnets on an inner CV / axle and use a quadrature decoder to get a high res signal to work with but I don't know if it would be
worth it.
Any pictures of your setup Joel?
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ElusiveStranger
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 09:26 AM |
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GF there's a nice thread on here about VSS. Brantz do a nice one.
Ask EJ71Van if he's happy with his. Vauxhall/GM gearbox one fits the back of a Type 1 or Type 2 speedo - 4 pulses per wheel rev @ 5V (same on a bus
as a Leggy ±5% IIRC)
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Joel
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 10:00 AM |
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Here ya go, just a $25 NPN proximity sensor and some scrap metal.
Will hit 14,000kms some time this week, never given me a problem and it's seen plenty of nasty weather but its supposedly water proof anyway.
With the frequency it can handle it's supposedly good for over 300mph.
I've had it to blinker light on a 160km/h speedo anyway.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 11:33 AM |
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Holy crap that thing is terrifying!
I'm thinking something like just getting a cheap pack of rare earth magnets, putting them round some part of the rotating assembly, maybe the bit
that the CV bolts to on the transmission and using a reed switch or a hall switch (not just the sensor).When I get a few minutes I'm going to punch
the tyre diameters of the van and the magna into a tyre calculator and see the circumference difference. If I'm lucky the VW has about 20% larger
circumference. Why? Well I could put 5 magnets on instead of 4 and have the speed more or less right.
I also had another look at the Magna cluster diagram this morning. Bit off topic but it looks like it has a built in 7v regulated supply for the fuel
sender. it's close enough to what the mean of what the VW vibrator outputs. I'm so tempted to go out there and hack the harness off as is and start
wiring on relevant blade connectors. The 'cruiser heater is ready to be picked up at the post office soon I think so I have a real project item
again, sort of. Besides testing it I can't do squat without piping besides plumb it in and sit it above the engine bay to make sure it works. Might
be hard to believe but my bay's engine bay is starting to get cramped.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Joel
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 11:51 AM |
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Hence it's name.
There are far more elegant ways to do it, in the front hub sensing the wheel bolts for example would be a neat way.
I just went for the easy solution and I also wanted it on the rear driving wheels so it didn't spack out on dynos when the front wheels aren't
turning.
I did actually try the magnets and reed switch deal, worked briefly then failed miserably.
another subi conversion guy I know tried it too but using the subaru reed switch, same deal worked for a bit then stopped.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 12:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Hence it's name.
There are far more elegant ways to do it, in the front hub sensing the wheel bolts for example would be a neat way.
I just went for the easy solution and I also wanted it on the rear driving wheels so it didn't spack out on dynos when the front wheels aren't
turning.
I did actually try the magnets and reed switch deal, worked briefly then failed miserably.
another subi conversion guy I know tried it too but using the subaru reed switch, same deal worked for a bit then stopped.
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Ahahaha. I think I know why that failed after a bit. Possibly magnetic flux in the CV, but I think the most likely thing is that all those big
spinning magnets magnetised the angle iron bracket the reed switch is mounted on.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Ben386
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 05:40 PM |
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Nice work and photos Joel.Wheel of Death.I like it.Needs some red painted on it.
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Joel
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 07:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Ahahaha. I think I know why that failed after a bit. Possibly magnetic flux in the CV, but I think the most likely thing is that all those big
spinning magnets magnetised the angle iron bracket the reed switch is mounted on.
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It was just the reed switch was good enough for the job, which wasnt surprising it was $5 home alarm door switch.
Worked fine at low speeds just couldnt handle more than 90km/h
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 30th, 2011 at 07:39 PM |
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who needs to go above 70 anyway, hey?
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 31st, 2011 at 02:44 PM |
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I ran the tyre numbers on the calculator today and found out the curcumference difference between magna and VW is 5.38%. IIRC the magna has rubber
slightly too small on it. I'll have to check its book. If so a standard 4 pulse sensor will do. I reckon it'll do anyway. Close enough.
edit: I used this calculator: http://www.brspecialtuning.co.uk/Tyre%20size%20calculator.htm
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 31st, 2011 at 06:16 PM |
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I pulled the VSS out of the Magna. Gregory's instructions had me pulling it out, shaft and all. It's just like a messed up distributor. The VSS just
unscrewed off the top of it. Anyway the Magna VSS has a female screw thread and a male round shaft with a tab on it. Can I use this somehow, or is it
in the too hard basket?
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 31st, 2011 at 11:20 PM |
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Joel, you got me thinking. I remember years back extracting the reed switches from reed relays. The long ones with the external coil. They'd probably
be a much higher switching rate. I'm going to have a bit of a look at what's out there.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on June 1st, 2011 at 07:04 AM |
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Going for an addition here. I found proximity sensors that look like Joels. However they need magnets. Are there magnets on the back of the wheel of
death, or is something else going on there?
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
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| posted on June 1st, 2011 at 08:23 AM |
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I just ordered a proximity sensor and some neodymium magnets. They should be here in under three weeks... probably. I know this all seems like an
exercise in futility. maybe it is, but I like to experiment.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Joel
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| posted on June 1st, 2011 at 09:50 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Going for an addition here. I found proximity sensors that look like Joels. However they need magnets. Are there magnets on the back of the wheel of
death, or is something else going on there?
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Mines inductive so it only needs metal to trigger, same deal as at the airports.
The one you have found is a magnetic version, which will work fine, you just need to make sure the magnets stay put.
Biggest killer of aftermarket cruise control kits is the magnets entering orbit when the epoxy lets go.
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
Custom Title Time!
Use your head, don't abuse it!
Posts: 1036
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Registered: June 15th, 2004
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Location: Peaceful Finley, NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
Mood: Not too bad. Thanks for asking!
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| posted on June 1st, 2011 at 10:37 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Going for an addition here. I found proximity sensors that look like Joels. However they need magnets. Are there magnets on the back of the wheel of
death, or is something else going on there?
|
Mines inductive so it only needs metal to trigger, same deal as at the airports.
The one you have found is a magnetic version, which will work fine, you just need to make sure the magnets stay put.
Biggest killer of aftermarket cruise control kits is the magnets entering orbit when the epoxy lets go.
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Ah that explains it. I'm happier with the type I got anyway. Inductive is awesome to be sure, but I felt a little uncomfortable about a notched wheel
like yours. Wouldn't surprise me if the magnets emancipate themselves eventually but it's no big deal. Anyway I got small neodymium magnets for a
reason. lots of magnetism and low mass. I'd probably secure them with JB Weld or something to be safe.
I'm out a little over $12 for the lot, so it's all good 
This morning I was tracing wires on the Magna schematics. Got it all figured except the mysterious "Lamp control unit" on the digital cluster
wiring. The analog has rheostat.
Interesting thing is the schematic shows both sides of the backlighting circuit wired to a positive feed on different circuits. Really confusing
especially because it shows the bulbs wired directly to each. Multimeter time I guess.
Big stupidhead me realised I can easily work out what I need for neat cluster fitment without pulling the gauges out. The glovebox hole is the same
size as the cluster hole. Only difference is the lack of screw holes.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
Custom Title Time!
Use your head, don't abuse it!
Posts: 1036
Threads: 107
Registered: June 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Peaceful Finley, NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
Mood: Not too bad. Thanks for asking!
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| posted on June 1st, 2011 at 11:23 AM |
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I just did a rough test fit on the drivers side. it would be fine except for the pivot that the heater control levers are on. Damnit. There are
options. Either cut mine, find another or just make my own single bracket, which would probably be the easiest.
No matter what I'll make up what I need to patch it in to the electric and see if I can make it dance before anything is done.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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