| [ Total Views: 2254 | Total Replies: 43 | Thread Id: 93620 ] |
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 Craig S
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| posted on November 6th, 2011 at 09:00 PM |
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MSD - Is it worth it?
Howdy,
Let's start with the dumb question:
I understand that in a standard system you have a coil and the distributor. In a MSD system you still have the coil and distributor, but you also have
the additional box (i.e. the 6AL seems to be popular). What exactly is the function of the box?? Based on what I can read on the MSD site it is a
capacitor:
"It draws its energy directly from the battery where a custom wound transformer steps it up to over 460 volts. This voltage is then stored in a
capacitor until the ignition is triggered. At this point, all of the voltage is dumped into the coil where it is transformed into even more voltage,
anywhere from 30,000 - 45,000 volts depending on the coil, which is sent to the distributor and finally to the plugs."
Secondly, is there really sufficient improvement in spark/idle/performance/startup to justify the cost of an MSD system for street applications?
According to the blurb on their site:
"The payoff is complete combustion of the fuel mixture which results in more power, increased throttle response, a smooth idle, quick starts,
improved economy and reduced plug fouling."
I'm surprised they don't claim that it makes you a hot breakfast when it's not busy healing the sick!!
At this point it's just idle curiosity more than anything else. I know that asking ignition related questions will result in a thousand opinions and
occassionally bloodshed, but I look forward to hearing the opinions.
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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whathaveidone
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| posted on November 6th, 2011 at 09:07 PM |
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And they give you the option of multiple rev limiters for compertition use.
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Imac
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 08:49 AM |
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I don't understand why anyone would use anything but megajolt computer and an Ford EDIS (electronic distributorless ignition system) from a mondeo or
similar,
Complete for less that $300. For EFI go megasquirt. No dizzy to stuff up, all components are cheap, reliable and available and it's fully
programmable. I'm running a turbo 1776, tried several dizzy set-ups, all failed because they couldn't eliminate detonation while maintaining any
sort of bottom end power. I had to run a programmable computer to tailor my ignition curve to exactly were I wanted it I've been running this for 18
month and bless it every time I start the engine it's just so smooth, absolutely no dizzy scatter. The mega jolt system is the best value for money
ever.
Have a look at these links
For the EDIS http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EDIS-4-Ignition-Module-Ford-Kit-36-1-VR-Coil-Megas...
For the Megajolt http://www.autosportlabs.com/megajolte-p-41.html
Cheers Ian
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HappyDaze
A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 10:08 AM |
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When I built my 550 Spyder replica, the engine that I fitted was a 911 T, with Weber carbs. The engine ran really rough, and was down on power, even
after a lot of tuning.
Mark Poole gave me a lot of help with the engine re-build, so I called him for some advice on the problem. Mark did not hesitate in suggesting that I
fit an MSD........That fixed the problem immediately. Evidently those early engines don't like modern fuels.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 10:46 AM |
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I saw a brilliant MSD tutorial on a TV show on Bris 31 called Gasoline.
It was the best dam car show i had seen, so technical and went into the nitty gritty compared to yea this a is a ferrari, yea this is the catalogue
specs, lets pull some skids (TOP gear etc). No, it had actual bulk raw up front substance.
The MSD ignition compared to the normal coil/spark discharge was excellent, with the demonstator showing that usually after about 4000rpm, poor spark
and the occasional misfire was to be expected in the stock system, while MSD maintained a constant bright bang throughout, till 10,000 rpm i think it
was?? or maybe 12,000 rpm.
They had another MSD style ignition system they demonstated for alcohol filled drag cars, good for 20,000rpm or sumfin rediculous, and the dam crazy
spark extended and looped out the side light bloody lightning! lol.
Dam i wish i had a copy of that segment though. Was straight no frills facts of 'here it is' and let me flick the switch and just watch and see for
yourselves. No garbo
Heres an american demo, not as good as what i saw but gives basic idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2clNrxOuM
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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1303Steve
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 11:27 AM |
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Hi
I fitted a 6AL digital to my sons bug, it runs so much nicer. MSDs do have a reputation for being unreliable, keep the car wiring so that it can be
returned to stock easily
What attracted me was the rev limiter.
There is a locally made unit that is getting rave reviews by the yanks http://www.iceignition.com/
Steve
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Joel
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 11:36 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Imac
I don't understand why anyone would use anything but megajolt computer and an Ford EDIS (electronic distributorless ignition system) from a mondeo or
similar,
Complete for less that $300. For EFI go megasquirt. No dizzy to stuff up, all components are cheap, reliable and available and it's fully
programmable. I'm running a turbo 1776, tried several dizzy set-ups, all failed because they couldn't eliminate detonation while maintaining any
sort of bottom end power. I had to run a programmable computer to tailor my ignition curve to exactly were I wanted it I've been running this for 18
month and bless it every time I start the engine it's just so smooth, absolutely no dizzy scatter. The mega jolt system is the best value for money
ever.
Have a look at these links
For the EDIS http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EDIS-4-Ignition-Module-Ford-Kit-36-1-VR-Coil-Megas...
For the Megajolt http://www.autosportlabs.com/megajolte-p-41.html
Cheers Ian
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I agree with you that in this day and age distributors are really only for the die hard original stock purists.
THe reason most don't go the megajolt though is most people want a simple plug and play solution.
A box they can open up, a few bits to bolt onto the engine, time it and forget all about it.
For nearly the same money you can get Compufire Dis-X coil pack kits which is all that.
All the mainstream car manufacturers dumped distributors for coil packs a good 2 decades ago, the aftermarket vw world is only just playing catch up
now in an easy and affordable manner.
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sander288
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 12:41 PM |
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I know MSD's are good but I have heard mixed reports on them working, I think the gringos boys might of had a few issues with 2 out of 3 being no
good.
that fella from South Australia with the white hillclimb bug has a 009 hooked up to a CDI box I forget the brand but at the supersprint he said he
had good results. I think he called his motor "china-black" becasue he used all the chinese VW parts and heat treated them all before use.
Cheers
Shaun
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ian.mezz
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 05:44 PM |
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we just run good old points in our drag car stan motor
good for 20000miles. 
no tacho
No rev limiter
just rev it until it wont rev any more 
http://www.youtube.com/user/avwnut#p/u/3/CW1lMnVgV4I
http://www.youtube.com/user/avwnut#p/u/47/Ah2AZ1-FxeI
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sander288
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 06:52 PM |
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The CDI box the hillclimb bug used was a Crane Hi-6, about $300 or so.
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vassy66T1
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 07:21 PM |
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I would highly recommend MSD set up.
I have one in my 2165cc Single Cab. (Distributor, 6AL, Blaster coil)
The improvement on idle is significant. The timing light is so steady at revs compared to a 009. (i.e. a single reading/line not a blurr like I have
seen on a few 009's I have used)
The advance curve is easily adjustable via a combination of springs and toal advance limit bushing.
Changing the advance curve with the MSD distributior is a 5 minute job including resetting the total advance with timing light.
They are really very simple and very effective.
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dangerous
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 08:00 PM |
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I loved my 6AL, and if you get an MSD, it is well worth it just for the rev limiter.
It was 20 years old when i purchased it second hand...never a problem.
I recently upgraded to a Power Grid 7 and now a crank trigger.
It is fully programable and has twice the spark energy of the 6AL.
Like most ignition upgrades, the start and idle quality is usually improved.
If you like to run your engine rich or lean from ideal, they can usually improve the burn quality.
I think if I was to suggest an MSD unit for others,
the 6Al2 would be my choice.
All the nice features, easily adaptable to any dizzy trigger system and quite affordable.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 08:04 PM |
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This is out of control:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNuy_RxLW4A&feature=related
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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 matberry
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 08:14 PM |
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Yep, worth it if you can afford it. Best system available IMO. Fitted a 7 series digital recently and with the built in dial adjustable rev limit and
two step limit, they are fantastic. The driveability below 3000rpm is definately improved, generally rejetting also required with carbs.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 7th, 2011 at 09:27 PM |
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what ^ said !
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Craig S
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 10:54 AM |
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Thanks everyone.
I'm actually surprised by the overwhelming positive response. I need to do some more reading and learning before I take the leap.
Whilst putting in an engine I figure I might as well kill as many birds at once that I can afford.
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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Craig S
A.k.a.: Craig
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 11:18 AM |
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Well did a teeny bit more looking about the Compu-fire and found these:
http://www.compufire.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&l...
and also funnily enough:
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=84897
I think on that basis I'd be better sticking with the MSD for now, and then rethinking later if I go EFI, whereupon I can reuse the MSD on whatever I
buy for my second toy.
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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vlad01
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 11:28 AM |
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if you go for EFi, get some GM coil packs. those things are 60Kv ! its cheap as chips and can be ripped of any VN and up V6 engine.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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ian.mezz
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 05:37 PM |
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Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
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Craig S
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 08:54 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
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So would a voltage regulator help, regardless of the system used?
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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matberry
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 09:11 PM |
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If it's spikes your worried about, it's a filter you'd need. All electronics are subject to reliability issues. I've had more drama's with
Compufire than MSD's.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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BiX
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 09:20 PM |
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Any comments on the MSD vs Mallory debate?
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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bus914
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| posted on November 8th, 2011 at 10:19 PM |
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This looks really nice:
http://www.compu-tronix.com/DIS4009.htm
In my ride I have an old Jaycar HEI KC5247 with dwell control + compufire points replacement module for triggering + Second hand Omex Clubman soft rev
limiter.
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vassy66T1
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 08:26 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
Any comments on the MSD vs Mallory debate?
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No personal experience but haven't heard anyone give a good wrap on Mallory gear.
But some of this feedback is getting on in years now.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 08:59 AM |
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Rev Limiter
http://www.thesamba.com:80/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=540417
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vlad01
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 02:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
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so thats 6 months and still good?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 03:48 PM |
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I have had Compufires on the 009 in my 1916 for at least 200,000km - the only problem I had was when the first one stopped working when some stupid
bald bastard (me) re-connected it up the wrong way around. :-(
From your ole' mate Jeff
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ian.mezz
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 04:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
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so thats 6 months and still good?
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about 5 years , drag racing and all
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matberry
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| posted on November 9th, 2011 at 05:12 PM |
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Yeah, I've had many many miles out of a compufire. Also sell them still today. But occasionally they do fail. Sometimes it's not the electronics
fault, we had a bad connection at the fuse box cause a unit to fail, the car still ran, but would stop too !!!! Not always at an appropriate time!
That's the biggest issue with any electronics, they don't always let you know when they are about to cark it, and it can take literally hours, days
or weeks to correctly diagnose some ignition issues.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Imac
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| posted on November 10th, 2011 at 09:38 AM |
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OK comparing a drag cars ignition requirements to a street car is irrelevant. The drag car only needs accurate ignition at full revs and full load a
magneto does the job.
A 009 (the most evil thing out there) being centrifical only has no way of adjusting for load. Put your foot down or climb a hill the dizzy has to
catch up as revs increase. I have a stock 67 that will stay original I mean points and original dizzy and a pict30-1 and it will stay that way, if you
change to an electronic module it's not original hence go the whole hog. Anything performance oriented ie high compression high revving you need to
compensate for lack of lead and low fuel octane. If you want the best get your head out of the last century and get rid that dizzy. Also if I can fit
EDIS so can any trained monkey, yes it's that simple and I can return back to stock quicker than it would take to remove your compufire and refit and
set your points. Yes I have used compufire, yes, cleaner spark but no real benefit when it comes flexibility there is none. As far as changing weights
and springs to change the characteristics of the dizzy how do you adjust +or- over a narrow rev or load range without affecting everywhere else?
PS EDIS has a 10 degree fail safe if there is a total computer failure so you will get home.
PSS I set my plug gap on the EDIS at 40thou/1mm and there's plenty of juice to jump at lest 60thou
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