| [ Total Views: 3370 | Total Replies: 69 | Thread Id: 93724 ] |
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 psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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 posted on November 11th, 2011 at 05:45 AM |
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Flipping useless ADR!!!!!
So I wonder if anyone can help answer this one for me whilst I await QLD transport to get back to me.
I was wanting to fabricate a vented brake disc conversion for my 1959 Beetle with 205PCD original steels.
Now even tho Volks Conversion and CSP with TUV approval, better than the ADR too, sell similar kits that require a mounting plate to bolt to the discs
hub and then the 205 wheel bolts to the mounting plate yet my engineer says this may not be legal unless ADR has made a specific allowance for
this?
Does anyone know if it's legal or not? It's not a wheel spacer or adapter to change from one PCD to another so technically it should be allowed.
Strength would be better than the original drum so can't see why the dumb ADR wouldn't allow it.
Cheers
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 matberry
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 06:29 AM |
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Sherman did it with his early kit and got it engineered, yet other engineers have argued the legality. He used specifically a rotor from a Mazda that
was originally fastened to the wheel hub and by somehow convincing his engineer that if he used these same mounting bolts to fasten the wheel mounting
plate, it wasn't actually a wheel adapter even though it looks like one  .
I can't see why the fitting of a disc hat to an engineered hub would be any different, although the approval is still necessary. It appears to me to
be more a case of how we/engineers describe the parts we use. Don't call it a wheel adapter but a mounting hub.......
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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vlad01
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 10:06 AM |
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haha gota love australia
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Camo
A.k.a.: Kev
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 10:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Don't call it a wheel adapter but a mounting hub.......
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I like that, thanks 
Kev
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bajachris88
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 01:22 PM |
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Like 3 inch lift kit vs. chassis stiffening
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 02:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
So I wonder if anyone can help answer this one for me whilst I await QLD transport to get back to me.
I was wanting to fabricate a vented brake disc conversion for my 1959 Beetle with 205PCD original steels.
Now even tho Volks Conversion and CSP with TUV approval, better than the ADR too, sell similar kits that require a mounting plate to bolt to the discs
hub and then the 205 wheel bolts to the mounting plate yet my engineer says this may not be legal unless ADR has made a specific allowance for
this?
Does anyone know if it's legal or not? It's not a wheel spacer or adapter to change from one PCD to another so technically it should be allowed.
Strength would be better than the original drum so can't see why the dumb ADR wouldn't allow it.
Cheers
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it should be easy enough to figure out...??
regardless of ADRs...
which is what they are always looking at these days..
many new cars have a plastic spacer behind the Mag wheels so they will seat properly...
some common sense is needed...
[not so common these days??]
If a pothole in a road can now wreck a low profile tyre and alloy wheel....???
I seem to remember that New Porsches cam with wheel spacers from the factory many years ago... 914 ??
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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vwo60
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 02:47 PM |
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In my early days i had the misfortune to have dealings with person mentioned above in the form of the fore said discs brake kit using the mazda hubs
that had the adaptor plate/mounting hub, these came complete with two siezed calipers, one broken bleeder along with the manditory taurbmans
recondition, the adaptors were fastened to the hub using 8MM bolts, any engineer that would pass rubbish like that should be shot, it made the track
on the front with standard wheels about 75MM over track, as a machinist i now completely engineer and fabricate my own, as for using the above set up,
it can only be called a adaptor plate because that is what it is, i machined mine out of on piece of T6 billet stock. they have these rules in place
to make sure that any mods are done to a high engineering standards, its all about catering for the lowerest common denominator in a attempt to stop
dangerous vehicles being driven on the roads, the only thing you could do is keep approaching different engineers until you find one that will accept
the risk of using that set up. i had to learn the hard way and did not purchase one set but two, one for my mate as well, both ended up being junk, i
have learnt a lot since then. also a lot of porsche 911's run spacers as standard, all complied when the vehicle was imported and approved as a
manufacturers part and by the way i am still waiting for replacement calipers for those kits.
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 05:07 PM |
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Hi
Would ADRs affect a car that old?
I've also heard similar stories about that guy from the Gold Coasts brake conversions.
Steve
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 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 06:19 PM |
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Look through VSB14 (Vehicle Service Bulletin). Search for it and have a read.
It is close to being recognised as a National code for modifications.
As far as I know, a wheel spacer is ok if it is permanently fixed to the hub, and does not allow the track to increase more than 25mm overall, or
allows the wheel studs to take any load or stresses that they were not designed for.
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Brad
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| posted on November 11th, 2011 at 11:15 PM |
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Volks Conversion Kits are not ADR approved and have no design approval either. John likes to say they are QLD Transport Approved but what he means is
that people in QLD Transport have let cars with them through rego.
As him straight up and he will be able to supply no paperwork at all.
There is no issue at all running an adapter as part of the disc brake kit to return the selected disc conversion to the factory PCD. I suggest you
read the rules and the ADR's. I think you are confussing the inability to run a wheel adapter as opposed to running an engineer designed and approved
disc kit which includes an adapter as part of it.
It has little to do with QLD Transport as they will refer you to an approved person and if they hold the relevant design code they can approve the
design, once installed they can then approve the install. I went though all this is person when we got the Custom Offroad Disc Conversion Kits
designed approved. We supplied 5/205 PCD adapters with the kit for those who needed it and this was covered in the design approval.
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 07:00 AM |
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I never liked the look of VolksConversions kit but wondered how it got away with being legal.
I've read the NCOP and been advised by Qld Trans that adapters cannot be used yet original PCD wheels must be used and that the Porsche stuff passes
as it's from a large international company and if used on any vehcile not originally designed for then it is illegal.
Hoping my engineer will see that it is perfectly safe and like people have said it's a mounting plate not an adapter plate that is permenantly bolted
to the hub with deep wheel bolt sized Hi-ten bolts.
Can anyone point me in the direction of the conversions they have said they designed and passed scrutiny?
Cheers,
Mike
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matberry
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 07:04 AM |
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Thanks Brad. Good info.
The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vwo60
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 08:17 AM |
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If the JS brakes are approved it does not say much for the people that do the engineering approvals, the engineer that i use has no issues in using a
different PCD as long as it is up to the correct engineering standard,
You can come and have a look at the brakes on my car as i have already engineered, fabricated and are approved for the street.
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psimitar
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:41 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
If the JS brakes are approved it does not say much for the people that do the engineering approvals, the engineer that i use has no issues in using a
different PCD as long as it is up to the correct engineering standard,
You can come and have a look at the brakes on my car as i have already engineered, fabricated and are approved for the street.
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So you have the wide 5 205mm PCD wheels and front disc brake conversion? Just wish to clarify so on the same page.
You've used maybe 6061 T6 alloy and machined the hub and wheel mounting plate as one unit?
Do you have any pictures of your setup? I'm in Europe at present and doing my homework before I return to Oz and get things started.
Also, how is the alloys grain running inside lengths of bar we can buy? is it radial or along it's length? Just wondering from a strength point of
view to side loadings.
Cheers,
Mike
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Brad
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 01:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Thanks Brad. Good info.
The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.
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What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for
many many years and he even admitted he never had any.
All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it
provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts
and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.
I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is
one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look
familiar.
As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme
allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.
I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are
fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 04:23 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Thanks Brad. Good info.
The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.
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What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for
many many years and he even admitted he never had any.
All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it
provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts
and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.
I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is
one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look
familiar.
As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme
allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.
I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are
fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....
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Your engineer approved mine.
tssnq.com.au
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mackaymanx
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 05:54 PM |
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Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper
brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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ragged
A.k.a.: David
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 06:08 PM |
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Sadly I know this post won't be here tomorrow. Perhaps we could continue with factual information to help educate members minus the real names of the
people that manufacture or sell such kits. Forget about grinding axes, just share your experience as to what works and what doesn't!
Dave
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mackaymanx
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 06:17 PM |
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Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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vwo60
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 07:16 PM |
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As for bagging any body, its very fair to let other people know if you have had any issues with kits that are being sold today, i am still owed money
or replacement parts from my brush with J* 30 years ago, every show i see him at i stand in front of his stall and tell every body to avoid his
rubbish, as far as i can see i am just sharing my experence letting people know what works and what does not, thanks for the compliment Brad that is
my car that you recognise. the brakes that i have on my car are 4 x 130, if you had enough time you could make the 5 x 205 hubs out of billet, you
would have a lot of swarf left over, you would need to check with alcoa about how the material is made, i did not think it would make to much
difference as the hubs are way over engineered for such a light car
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 09:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
As for bagging any body, its very fair to let other people know if you have had any issues with kits that are being sold today, i am still owed money
or replacement parts from my brush with J* 30 years ago, every show i see him at i stand in front of his stall and tell every body to avoid his
rubbish, as far as i can see i am just sharing my experence letting people know what works and what does not, thanks for the compliment Brad that is
my car that you recognise. the brakes that i have on my car are 4 x 130, if you had enough time you could make the 5 x 205 hubs out of billet, you
would have a lot of swarf left over, you would need to check with alcoa about how the material is made, i did not think it would make to much
difference as the hubs are way over engineered for such a light car
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If someone sells crap then others should know so they can make their own minds up on the merits of the product. Hell, most main Aussie banks sell shit
but we have to put up with that.
I'm more inclined for a steel plate to bolt to the alloy hub for strength as, and I will check, I'm not sure the billet alloy would have as much
strength due to the grain.
If I could get em hot drop forged I'd be laughing
Still gotta find a Tafe that'll let me use there gear for R&D or fork out for a second hand lathe
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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vwo60
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 09:59 PM |
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I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its
a light car it would be used on.
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its
a light car it would be used on.
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Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
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Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:23 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its
a light car it would be used on.
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Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Brad
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Thanks Brad. Good info.
The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.
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What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for
many many years and he even admitted he never had any.
All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it
provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts
and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.
I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is
one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look
familiar.
As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme
allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.
I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are
fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....
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Your engineer approved mine.
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Yes they were approved after they were modified and a brake test was conducted.
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Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mackaymanx
Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper
brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD
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Were they the ones with the 2nd hand parts you supplied ? As for passing them, answer would be NO as from memory we never even saw the car they were
going on, bit hard to get an install approval when we didn't fit them. As for them not fitting .. are you saying when you fitted your second hand
parts you supplied to the car you were not smart enough to get them setup correctly ? Maybe you should have sent the car down so we could have set
them up for you so they would work as designed.
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Brad
Wolfsburg Elder
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| posted on November 12th, 2011 at 10:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mackaymanx
Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.
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heheh, So Brent, how is living on my tax dollars treating you ? Still got time to hang out in here and offer helpful info I see.
So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?
I see you still have my quote for a footer and a status to match. I am so pleased I made such a lasting impression on you, just glad you had your name
in the status so I could remember WTF it was.
Not sure how this thread became all about me, but mehh if that is what floats your boat. As for helping the original poster maybe you can offer some
factual input ? I am sure google can help you out and give you an opinion and some experience
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mackaymanx
A.k.a.: Brent
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| posted on November 13th, 2011 at 12:01 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mackaymanx
Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper
brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD
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Were they the ones with the 2nd hand parts you supplied ? As for passing them, answer would be NO as from memory we never even saw the car they were
going on, bit hard to get an install approval when we didn't fit them. As for them not fitting .. are you saying when you fitted your second hand
parts you supplied to the car you were not smart enough to get them setup correctly ? Maybe you should have sent the car down so we could have set
them up for you so they would work as designed.
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Yet again you are trying to muddy the situation. CVD modified the caliper brackets which they supplied because they lost/used/misplaced the first set
I gave you(so they used secondhand parts which they supplied).
CVD modified the bearing spacers and set up the bearings on the arms(the secondhand bearing spacers which you asked me to supply). I have heard
through the grapevine that the design has been change on the bearing housing on your arms, maybe you are the one who was not smart enough to get to
get it right the first time around.
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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mackaymanx
A.k.a.: Brent
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1611
Threads: 97
Registered: January 12th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Mackay.QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: Brad'ed Off
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| posted on November 13th, 2011 at 12:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mackaymanx
Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.
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heheh, So Brent, how is living on my tax dollars treating you ? Still got time to hang out in here and offer helpful info I see.
So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?
I see you still have my quote for a footer and a status to match. I am so pleased I made such a lasting impression on you, just glad you had your name
in the status so I could remember WTF it was.
Not sure how this thread became all about me, but mehh if that is what floats your boat. As for helping the original poster maybe you can offer some
factual input ? I am sure google can help you out and give you an opinion and some experience
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Brad you seem fascinate that I'm "living on my(your) tax dollars" as this is the second time you have brought it up in seperate threads. Yes I'm
on a disability support pension. So what! I've had chronic arthritis condition for the last 25 years of my life and I didn't stop working until I
had to! You infer that I'm some kind of dole bludger, or are you just a bigot against people with a disability???
"So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?"
I don't know what you are trying to get at here Brad, more inuendo.
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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mactaylor
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1005
Threads: 54
Registered: August 14th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Albury
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: even my dog is german
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| posted on November 13th, 2011 at 03:49 AM |
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as for wide 5 disc brake hubs have a look at hunter rivmaster,s offroad kit it might be able to be engineerd have a chat with him good dude!
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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