| [ Total Views: 2809 | Total Replies: 39 | Thread Id: 95331 ] |
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 arthur8804
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 10:44 AM |
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Drilling while in thermostat
When people say that they drill a whole in the thermostat housing for better flow, where exactly is this whole drilled?
Is the part that sitting on the bench the part that people are referring to?
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Joel
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 12:26 PM |
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Don't do it, it causes more problems than it solves.
People that have to do it have just made a f--k up somewhere else with their cooling system, usually by not having an adequate heaterloop/bypass in
place like the system needs.
Anyway a Genuine Thermostat like that one already has one.
That little round rattle pin is in a hole and is designed to let the air bleed through when the engine isn't running then blocks off the hole when
its running and there is pressure there.
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arthur8804
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 01:51 PM |
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I've been told by the guys at outfront motorsports here in the states that I do not need one. As a matter of fact the sell a restrictor plate that
replacese the thermostat. I have it on a buggy and have already removed the heater line at the water pump and plugged with a pipe plug. I am not at
all doubting what you say as I am learning through this process, but I am just trying to disifer the contradicting information that I have been fed.
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grumble
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 05:06 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Don't do it, it causes more problems than it solves.
People that have to do it have just made a f--k up somewhere else with their cooling system, usually by not having an adequate heaterloop/bypass in
place like the system needs.
Anyway a Genuine Thermostat like that one already has one.
That little round rattle pin is in a hole and is designed to let the air bleed through when the engine isn't running then blocks off the hole when
its running and there is pressure there.
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x2 I agree there are a lot of specialists out there who know s..... and usually their fix is put a ball bearing in the vacuum hose,drill a hole etc
with no knowledge of the consequences...
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Joel
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 06:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by arthur8804
I've been told by the guys at outfront motorsports here in the states that I do not need one
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Wow, that is some really piss poor advice on their part.
It will work but its gonna dramatically shorten engine life and really screw with fuel economy, but that keeps them in business too which is probably
why they do it.
Modern fuel injected engines need to get up to temp as quick as possible and stay consistantly at optimal temp.
Without a thermostat it will be running in closed loop mode way too long and same with cold start enrichement too.
Subarus and most Jap cars have a really well engineered cooling system in stock format when it hasn't been frigged with.
Mine is up to temp even in winter in less than 5 mins.
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bajachris88
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 07:14 PM |
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as said, a thermostat is used to heat an engine to engineering running temperature then maintain it. Its just to maintain engine temperatures within a
certain range is so the temperature is in a range that the engine is designed to, in regards to tolerances and fits etc to take into account thermal
expansion and as well as optimal efficient running/performance at that temperature.
If a thermostat requires more flow, it will do so when its ready and 'open up' as per its designed operation.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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vlad01
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| posted on February 12th, 2012 at 08:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
as said, a thermostat is used to heat an engine to engineering running temperature then maintain it. Its just to maintain engine temperatures within a
certain range is so the temperature is in a range that the engine is designed to, in regards to tolerances and fits etc to take into account thermal
expansion and as well as optimal efficient running/performance at that temperature.
If a thermostat requires more flow, it will do so when its ready and 'open up' as per its designed operation.
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you are a smart man.
I hate how people can't acknolege this and think they are smarter than the engineers who took years to design and build these engines.
What shits me even more is the fact people think the air cooled engine has some special rule that says rip out the thermostat. And people wonder when
their air cooled doesn't last and why they have so much blow by after 5k. 
Idiots!
Yes thermostat is extemely important!
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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arthur8804
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| posted on February 13th, 2012 at 06:45 AM |
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Very convincing. I think I'll stay with the stat. Thanks guys
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pete wood
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| posted on February 20th, 2012 at 02:28 PM |
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I've tried the "hole in the thermostat" theory as offered by a so-called expert that used to be on this forum. He advised a 6mm hole...
EPIC fail. The engine took 30min of highway driving to warm up.
Of course, he then went on like a tool when I reported this. 
I did have an issue with what's refered to as "surging". This where the thermostat opens and shuts heaps of time because the pipes are long and
there is a big volume of water to heat as the engine warms up. In the end, I took the bleed (flipper) valve out of the thermostat and this helped.
However, like Joel said, better to leave it in if you can manage. My car takes about 15mins of regular driving to warming up. Some of this I put down
to the engine, pipes and radiator being pretty exposed to the outside air more than in a bug.
And yes, you definitely need a thermostat. I can't believe Outfront advise against. Even racecars need them. They don't just control the temp in the
engine, they also control the flow of fluid through the radiator to optimize cooling on hot days and minimize it in cold weather so that the engine is
kept in a specific temp range where the oil viscosity and combustion works best.
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vlad01
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| posted on February 21st, 2012 at 09:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I've tried the "hole in the thermostat" theory as offered by a so-called expert that used to be on this forum. He advised a 6mm hole...
EPIC fail. The engine took 30min of highway driving to warm up.
Of course, he then went on like a tool when I reported this.
I did have an issue with what's refered to as "surging". This where the thermostat opens and shuts heaps of time because the pipes are long and
there is a big volume of water to heat as the engine warms up. In the end, I took the bleed (flipper) valve out of the thermostat and this helped.
However, like Joel said, better to leave it in if you can manage. My car takes about 15mins of regular driving to warming up. Some of this I put down
to the engine, pipes and radiator being pretty exposed to the outside air more than in a bug.
And yes, you definitely need a thermostat. I can't believe Outfront advise against. Even racecars need them. They don't just control the temp in the
engine, they also control the flow of fluid through the radiator to optimize cooling on hot days and minimize it in cold weather so that the engine is
kept in a specific temp range where the oil viscosity and combustion works best.
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And everything expands uniformly and maintains correct tolerances. crucial to engine life and reliability!
wait? isn't this what VW people love so much about their type 1 engines?
guess why there is this conversion section. Please people don't ruin the conversion engines too 
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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tweety
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| posted on March 10th, 2012 at 06:10 PM |
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I agree totally. Dont need an extra hole.
Tweety has an ea81. It had an 82 degree thermostat. Tweety now has heaters, two Kawasaki motorcross radiators at the front and I wanted them hotter to
keep my legs warm.
I purchased a 88 degree stat and the salesman told me to drill a hole in it, one eigth of an inch. I have a digital temp gauge. The temp takes ages
to get to 88 degrees. And at Mt Hotham a few days ago in cold weather, the temp wouldnt go past 78 degrees. So my heaters didnt work well.
I say leave the stat alone. When filling the radiaotr take more time to ensure you dont have any air gaps. I just replaced my MR2 radiator with an
Alfasud. it has a small bleed tube and it came in handy when filling after I put a tap on it. Just something to consider if you ahve bleeding
issues.
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bugzla
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| posted on March 11th, 2012 at 11:40 AM |
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the trike is a little different cause of the length of hoses not being as long
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Joel
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| posted on March 11th, 2012 at 09:25 PM |
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Length of the coolant lines doesn't have an effect on themostat operation, particularly with EJs where it's on the cold side.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by tweety
I just replaced my MR2 radiator with an Alfasud. it has a small bleed tube and it came in handy when filling after I put a tap on it.
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Damn wish I knew you were doing that.
I put a brand new Genuine Italian Alfasud/33 radiator in mine bit over a year ago and it's doing the job but on these 40c+ days with the A/C going in
stop start traffic it could do with a tiny bit bigger rad now I have the larger 2.5L engine in and I was looking at MR2 radiators
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tweety
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| posted on March 12th, 2012 at 07:28 AM |
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Thats cool Joel.
With the combination of the two motorcycle radiators up front it will have enough cooling capacity. Since the Alfa one was put in the thermoes dont
engage (set at 92 degrees and a truck reversing alarm is hooked up to a Hudson Instruments sender unit in the old sender poition and will sound at 96
degrees) nearly as often meaning it cools a bit more efficiently.
Bare in mind though my MR2 radiator pictured below was a little large and needed to be on more of an angle than the Alfa one. Also due to that the
Alfa one has more space between it and the passenger seat ahead of it for more air flow.
The Alfa one
The MR2
The two 12 inch thermo fans used on the MR2 are on the Alfa one, bit big but on is pushing on one side the other pulling on the opposite side with
then overlapping a little.
I think if you compare the two radiators MR2 and Alfasud 1979-1990, the MR2 is the larger with obvious more capacity. I would seriously consider
placing a small M/C radiator somewhere, maybe under the vehicle with some mesh on it than replacing the Alfa one due to the experience I have with
both of them.
If you use oen for cabin heating maybe a second one in line that has continuous water flow would be an option. Either way I'm sure you'll find a
remedy. Just want to save you some cash because that Alfa one is a pearler.
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Joel
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| posted on March 12th, 2012 at 08:41 AM |
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I'll probably leave well enough alone, it's only been an issue a couple of times and even then its not enough to worry about.
A few weeks back coming home from Dubs by the pub I had to head through the city to get to my Brothers place while I was up that way and I have that
uncanny ability to be stopped by every set of traffic lights enroute there.
It was atleast 40c that day and there was no way I was sitting at traffic lights with no A/C on.
A combination of slow stop start traffic and A/C on such a hot day really tests a cooling system out.
It never got over 100c, not worth worrying till they hit 110c but it would be better to see that a bit lower.
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tweety
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| posted on March 21st, 2012 at 10:52 PM |
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I had some electrical issues. blew fuses in headlights etc. out of my league I was to ride Tweety to benalla 45 mins away to get it fixed. I didnt
realsie the thermo fans were hooked up to another fuse in the fuse box.
The headlights had a fuse but were incorrectly wired through another fuse- the thermo fuse and other items. (the auto elec told me this later)
Riding up the freeway Tweety's truck reversing alarm started up, meaning the water temp at the original sender unit in the ea81 was 95 degrees and
climbing.
I stopped, realised the thermos werent going and knew that all I had to do is slow down from 110kph to say 90 kph for the temp to maintain itself to
around 90 degrees.
Moral of the story is- that if you do a conversion to water cooled engine seek out a sender switch from Huson Instruments in Heidelberg Vic and hook
it to a truck reversing alarm unit and to your ignition.
Makes ofr a relaxing ride/drive without constantly watching the temp gauge which in my case is digital and in sunlight isnt easy to read all the time.
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Joel
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| posted on March 22nd, 2012 at 06:50 AM |
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Indeed, a temp warning of some sort is invaluable.
I've got a temp gauge in mine that has a built in warning.
At whatever the temp the warning is set at the whole gauge face starts flashing red and beeping too although I have that muted as the flashing on
it's own is impossible to miss.
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lou0060
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| posted on March 22nd, 2012 at 08:48 PM |
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hi guys, good thread this. I ran my car at Lakeside in january without the thermostat fitted and it seemed to warm up okay although my oil temp gauge
was reading pretty low. I mean water temp about 105 and oil around 60 from memory. I was trying to work out a miss at 4100 rpm so wasn't too
focused on temp.
I am going to refit the thermostat for the dyno run and Lakeside next month although my thermostat has had the rattle pin, as Joel calls it, removed
so maybe I will buy a new one.......
what temperatures are people running for water and oil?
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Joel
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| posted on March 23rd, 2012 at 09:12 AM |
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Hi Lou,
Stock fans come on usually between 95 and 98 and generally try to keep it under 100c so 105c is getting abit warm (nothing to worry about though) but
you may find the gauge is just reading high, alot do.
110c would be when you start worrying.
My temp gauge has peak recall and the Hottest it's ever got was 103c and that was last month driving in Brissy city traffic on a 40c+ day where I was
just stop start stop start at every set of lights with the A/C on.
Oil temp is real slow to come up, so on a track car it wouldnt get overly high till you been out there running for a while
I used to have an oil temp gauge in mine, it took a while to come up but it used to pretty well match the water temp under normal driving.
It did get up over 100c once on the motorway, some bogan hoon wanted to play so I was pushing it abit.
just make sure if you refit the thermostat you have a good clear heaterloop with no kinks or anything.
Thats when the thermostats start causing probs.
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 23rd, 2012 at 09:27 AM |
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Hi Tweety
You may have an issue with the design of your setup if you had to slow down from high speeds because your fan wasn't working, it shouldn't need to
come on at high speeds..
Regarding oil temp, on my WBX bug I ran the stock water cooled oil cooler and had oil temps that were similar to the water temp. With the water cooled
oil cooler I also had pretty quick warm ups, when I went to an external cooler I had slower warm ups but about the same oil temps eventually.
Steve
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lou0060
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| posted on March 23rd, 2012 at 10:26 PM |
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it's hard to tell from tweety's photos but looks like the rad is clear mounted with no surrounding tinware to direct the air flow thru it. Also
looks like it is behind the passenger backrest and also you have the canopy that would block airflow. Do you have a scoop pulling air up from the
ground up into the rad? this would cause it to run hot a high speed but then again the thermos should have kicked in.
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tweety
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| posted on March 25th, 2012 at 07:24 PM |
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Thanks guys for your comments.
Yes you are right, the fans shouldnt need to come on at cruising speeds. That has concerned me for a while.
I have decided to bite the bullet (again) and relocate the radiator to where it should be- the front of the trike ahead of my legs. The main reason
this wasnt done earlier was that the original choice was a MR2 radiator now replaced with a Alfasud. but the smaller Alfa one was still too wide,
blocking most of the brake pedals. I've decided to attach a pedal extension and mount the radiator there with the fans and do what I did witht he
motorcycle radiators- direct the hot unwanted air in summer under the trike and not towards us. A bit of work with ducting but I could also direct a
portion to the windscreen.
By the way- Tweety won two trophies lately- sponsors choice at the Yea Vic bushrodders show and shine and Best trike at the National 3 wheelers AGM
in Echuca thos weekend. Along with trike of the month USA (trike talk) for January.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 25th, 2012 at 07:52 PM |
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hi jack
I would try some pool noooodddles and some cut up old 5 or 20 oil bottles to duct air .
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Joel
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| posted on March 25th, 2012 at 08:06 PM |
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You really need to go into business doing conversions for the severely budget consious 
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 26th, 2012 at 07:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
You really need to go into business doing conversions for the severely budget consious
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that's all that cars have on them to duct air into radiator , foam and plastic .
tweety looks like the air can just go around the radiator.
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tweety
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| posted on March 26th, 2012 at 09:20 AM |
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Yes, right again, the noodles or methods to make air go through the radiator was thought of. no good though placing them there if the quantity of air
isnt sufficient to vane it through and that's my storng suspicion.
It is difficult placinf readers into the trike world and its unique needs, rather my unique needs. Heaters with two M/cycle radiators up frotn was an
experiment born out of the extreme cold here in Victoria especially the wind chill factor- can lead to frostbite. I worked out a long time ago that a
heater was essential for year round riding.
Those M/C heater however have been only partially successful. They look good and compact but heat only my lower legs and by the time the air reaches
my wife its ineffective. So it seems a logical move to remove them and put the Alfa radiator up front. Wide enough to impede on the brake pedal that
problem has been resolved with pedal extensions. Nice trims and mesh stone protection isnt hard to do and it'll look neat in the end. I do think
however that one M/C radiator should be left in the heater lines maybe as a demister or near the engine to keep that water system operating and add to
the cooling ability.
Trikes and M/C's. some issues the Vw and Subaru forums can give much needed advice but at times no one can help. Like after my engine
conversion....couldnt start the ea81 up. took me 3 days and forum questions galore to finally realsie I'd accidentally flicked the kill switch off.
OF COURSE no one could help me think of that lol.
And Joel- I'm always thinking of ways to improve Tweety on the cheap. like the roof badges. Made from zero house numbers moutned on perpex with a
bumper badge from the USA North Carolina Panthers. $45 each total cost.
A demister? well at one stage I had two 12 volt hairdryers $40 total, hooked up inside exhaust extensions. limited success.
and this was the first prototype.
Always tinkering always designing. like the roof designed to allow the body to rise.
Of course you guys have come up with some incredible ways of stuffing your Subie EJ's into Beetles with A/con etc. So I'm not alone in being
inventive.
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Joel
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| posted on March 26th, 2012 at 10:05 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
You really need to go into business doing conversions for the severely budget consious
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that's all that cars have on them to duct air into radiator , foam and plastic .
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You saying there is something wrong with my Bunnings plywood?? 
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 26th, 2012 at 11:30 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tweety
Yes, right again, the noodles or methods to make air go through the radiator was thought of. no good though placing them there if the quantity of air
isnt sufficient to vane it through and that's my storng suspicion.
It is difficult placinf readers into the trike world and its unique needs, rather my unique needs. Heaters with two M/cycle radiators up frotn was an
experiment born out of the extreme cold here in Victoria especially the wind chill factor- can lead to frostbite. I worked out a long time ago that a
heater was essential for year round riding.
Those M/C heater however have been only partially successful. They look good and compact but heat only my lower legs and by the time the air reaches
my wife its ineffective. So it seems a logical move to remove them and put the Alfa radiator up front. Wide enough to impede on the brake pedal that
problem has been resolved with pedal extensions. Nice trims and mesh stone protection isnt hard to do and it'll look neat in the end. I do think
however that one M/C radiator should be left in the heater lines maybe as a demister or near the engine to keep that water system operating and add to
the cooling ability.
Trikes and M/C's. some issues the Vw and Subaru forums can give much needed advice but at times no one can help. Like after my engine
conversion....couldnt start the ea81 up. took me 3 days and forum questions galore to finally realsie I'd accidentally flicked the kill switch off.
OF COURSE no one could help me think of that lol.
And Joel- I'm always thinking of ways to improve Tweety on the cheap. like the roof badges. Made from zero house numbers moutned on perpex with a
bumper badge from the USA North Carolina Panthers. $45 each total cost.
A demister? well at one stage I had two 12 volt hairdryers $40 total, hooked up inside exhaust extensions. limited success.
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yOUR missing the point , you need to close your radiator in , you cant just have it just sitting there with nothing stopping the air from going around
it , some sort of ducting is needed even if its Bunnings plywood.
you need to look under the bonnet of your hyundai.
V8 supercars get all the air for the radiator from that one hole in the bottom of the spoiler.
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ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
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Registered: September 11th, 2004
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| posted on March 26th, 2012 at 11:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
You really need to go into business doing conversions for the severely budget consious
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that's all that cars have on them to duct air into radiator , foam and plastic .
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You saying there is something wrong with my Bunnings plywood??
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you be ok in the floods , as you float
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tweety
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on March 28th, 2012 at 08:51 PM |
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Point taken Ian.Mezz. But I've decided to move it forward anyways.
Took 3 days but all ready for start up tomorrow.
The pedal (one large pedal for brake only - auto) was too narrow to pass the sides of the alfa radiator so built a detachable pedal extension. Will
get the chrome Harley pegs on there soon.
The brake lever has adjustment to suit short and long leged riders. So it was moved forward to its max setting to allow room for the radiator. Tight
squeeze. Other options included making a pedal on the ladder bars hinged on the bottom. But this was less work.
This is the engine bay now with heaps of room forward of the engine. mmm scuba LPG tanks ,,, the mind never stops.
The expansion tank was moved from high up (access only after roof lowered and body raised) to the far corner and much lower as the raidiator is far
lower also. can fill easily now. Stainless steel pipe used to hook up the coolant to the front.
test ride tomorrow.
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