| [ Total Views: 7038 | Total Replies: 179 | Thread Id: 15720 ] |
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 Gracey
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| posted on November 20th, 2003 at 01:09 PM |
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Thats right Craig, you'll just have to wait your turn.:P
Just remember good thing come to those who wait. Anyway you could just strap some number plates to your super light, slick shod race car.
Andrew Grace
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Brad
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| posted on November 20th, 2003 at 02:25 PM |
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| Quote: | [quote
yeah:
BUILD SHEET- 1916cc
That's all you need to know!!
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So let me get this straight you don't actually know what is in your $$$$ engine just that it seems to go hard ..
Is this correct or are you just funning with me ??
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lugnuts
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 01:39 AM |
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That about sums it up,i think Pete and Rota_Motor have very similar setups  |
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 Peter Leonard
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 01:49 PM |
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what's in the blocks?
Just to set the record straight, I DO know what's in it. I'm not conversant with all the finer points of it's construction, but if I
was, I would have built it all myself. I've now examined the 'build sheet' at great length, and have discovered that it's even got
hypercam plus! yes double good style overcomp pressure lifters and a red thingy that goes woooop! not to mention the stock rods, counterweighted
crank, and stock pushrods. and 009 dissy. and some other stuff. and things. I didn't pay my four billion pesetas without SOME idea of what was
going in it. On a side issue, is it sooo hard to believe that it's possible to have faith in someone's workmanship and honesty, without
picking everything to shreds before the build? maybe you people should try different engine builders...
I'm just glad that the red thing that goes "woooop" was included at no extra charge.
let sleeping dubs lie
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 02:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Peter Leonard
and stock pushrods
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really? are you sure?
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Bizarre
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 04:16 PM |
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Umm.... why not Wes?
Unless they are 1.4's or something, or Stan's really gone wild with the maching why would the rocker geo change?? :jesus
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 05:06 PM |
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Wes, mine has stock pushrods as well as stock rockers and you've seen how well it revs/goes when you were at Raleigh !
That's why "Stan's the Man", and building a motor by yourself will never compare.
Like Pete said, do you need to know every last detail about what you purchase ! I don't know what ratio's are in my gearbox, and I
don't care, I purchased it from a person who knew what he was doing!!
Stan's motors are not "one offs" like other builders, so you already know what you are getting, over 2 decades of industry leading
experience.
How many people ask what's in their prescriptions??? The wrong drug can kill you !!! more important than a compression ratio you would
think..:jesus
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 05:40 PM |
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in my 1776 with stock valves and springs my stock pushrods used to flex enough to rub on the pushrod tubes. It never broke or anything, but you pulled
it down you could see where they had been rubbing. Even though when you turned it over by hand they didn't come close to rubbing anywhere. I
therefore came to the conclusion they were flexing too much.
I figured the flexing and rubbing in the push rod tubes may promote leakage from the push rod tubes.
In my 1915 it ran chrome moly pushrods, much noisier cos they were stiffer, but no rubbing, and no oil leaks from the tubes while I had the motor
(prob 5 or so yrs?)
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Brad
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 05:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Peter Leonard
On a side issue, is it sooo hard to believe that it's possible to have faith in someone's workmanship and honesty, without picking
everything to shreds before the build? maybe you people should try different engine builders...
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Interesting choice of words........ my response in short is yes. I would never pay the $$$ that he asks and not know exactly what I was getting. The
fact that people will not post what they paid simply shows they don't feel they got a good deal in my book.
My 2020 cost me $2190 for the record and I am very happy with both the results and the machining work done for me by Greg at Mick Motors and Brisbane
Engine Balancing.
So what did yours cost ?
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Brad
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 05:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
In my 1915 it ran chrome moly pushrods, much noisier cos they were stiffer, but no rubbing, and no oil leaks from the tubes while I had the motor
(prob 5 or so yrs?)
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Ahhh yes Wes but your 1915 wasn't a POBJOY motor so it wasn't built properly with secret stuff ... don't you know anything ???:o:o
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jakriz
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 06:06 PM |
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| Quote: | In my 1915 it ran
chrome moly pushrods, much noisier cos they were stiffer, but no rubbing, and no oil leaks from the tubes while I had the motor (prob 5 or so yrs?)
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Thats weird Wes, mine ran quieter when I put Chromoly pushrods in? I figured since they were heavier thats why they were quieter?
I think that it amazing that Stan uses stock pushrods with those revs, more power to him I say, It's definantly an Artform.
I can't afford to get someone to build my engines so thats why I do my own, I also like telling people at traffic lights when they ask, "is
that a Pobjoy?, & I answer, "no, Its a 'Rizzo'...........pretty privilaged to be asked that I suppose.
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 09:51 PM |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
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Interesting choice of words........ my response in short is yes. I would never pay the $$$ that he asks and not know exactly what I was getting. The
fact that people will not post what they paid simply shows they don't feel they got a good deal in my book.
My 2020 cost me $2190 for the record and I am very happy with both the results and the machining work done for me by Greg at Mick Motors and Brisbane
Engine Balancing.
So what did yours cost ?
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So what did you get for your $2190 ??
I bet you didn't get new twin 44idf's ($1800), new CB 044's ($1650), new Aluminum case ($1100), new counterweight crank ($770), new
pistons/barrels ($550), new Kennedy pressure plate and clutch ($550), new billet cam ($300).................... I'm already at $6720:thumb
Before you try to compare , have a look at what your invoice includes. With a Pobjoy 1916 the cost of Stan's work is about $1500. Pretty cheap
considering this is for stripping your donor motor, washing and inspecting all parts, ALL machining, and reassemble of the complete motor !!
or $450 for assembly of motor.
So Brad, Stan may have been cheaper:o for what you had done.
And as for the "Secrets", I prefer to call it Knowledge not yet learnt by the "others", all industry leaders have them that's
why they are leaders..
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Gracey
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| posted on November 21st, 2003 at 10:46 PM |
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What Craig said. Quite simply you don't get anything for nothing.
A good example is motorbikes, I had a custom exhaust built for mine which cost $900. For that I got an 8 hp increase which I was very happy with. Ask
a Veedub person to shell out that sort of coin for the same thing on their VW and you'll have very few takers. It's all a matter of
perception.
BTW Wes, your chrome moly pushrods were noisier because they don't expand at the same rate as your motor, not because their stiffer. Cheers
Andrew Grace
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lugnuts
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 01:36 AM |
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(Its a Rizzo),i like your style Jak,:thumb |
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 06:30 AM |
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Just bring it to the Dyno Day on 7th December!
That'll show us what it's worth...
I've heard 120hp at the wheels for these engines. Yeah right - time for someone to show what a fresh one really makes. And fresh is the best time
to run it.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 07:06 AM |
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Well I'd love to see someone else win several Australian and state hillclimb titles with less than 100hp !!! I'm sure the FJ20 powered Datsuns,WRX's and 300hp torana's
would disagree with your comments. 8.74sec for the 1/8 mile in a 830kg car certainly doesn't work back to low horsepower either. Only a tenth or
so behind Leigh's times.
Happy to put my car on SAS's dyno next time Jak and the others are there.
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Brad
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 08:20 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
So what did you get for your $2190 ??
I bet you didn't get new twin 44idf's ($1800), new CB 044's ($1650), new Aluminum case ($1100), new counterweight crank ($770), new
pistons/barrels ($550), new Kennedy pressure plate and clutch ($550), new billet cam ($300).................... I'm already at $6720:thumb
Before you try to compare , have a look at what your invoice includes. With a Pobjoy 1916 the cost of Stan's work is about $1500. Pretty cheap
considering this is for stripping your donor motor, washing and inspecting all parts, ALL machining, and reassemble of the complete motor !!
or $450 for assembly of motor.
So Brad, Stan may have been cheaper:o for what you had done.
And as for the "Secrets", I prefer to call it Knowledge not yet learnt by the "others", all industry leaders have them that's
why they are leaders..
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It is easy to charge less labor when you are charging that much for parts .....
New IDF Webbers are about $1600 off the shelf but I have an old set that work just fine.
I have a new alloy case, 76mm Counter balanced Scat crank, new 040 heads with stainless valves, chrome molly push rods, scat c35 cam, new 92mm mahle
P&C, new kenedy pressure plate and clutch and I am no where near $6270 and pretty close to spec I would say.
As for ¼ mile and race times I am more than happy to kick your 1916 ass on the beach or up a rock wall any time of the day.
As for HP at the back wheels I will be a very happy camper if I get 100hp of ACTUAL POWER not 120 of supposed power.
If you think Stan can be cheaper than what I had done you are well and truly on DRUGS since I, like Rizzo build my own and buy most
of my parts direct from the USA or off the same suppliers Stan does I don’t see how it would be possible unless he works for free which would be
just silly.
I have nothing against Pobjoy Engines, never even owned one. Still find it very funny that all you Pobjoy Engine guys are embarrassed to tell us what
you paid for them. If they are such good value for money then what’s the problem ?
I am guessing from your post they are up around the $10 000 mark ….. man that is more than my car is worth……..
So what did you pay and do you want to buy some more of those $1800 sets of Webbers and $1100 AU cases ??
As for Dyno’s lying …. Spoken by someone is not real keen to put there wheels were their horsepower is meant to be I reckon….
:kiss
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 08:54 AM |
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Brad the point I'm trying to make is that 85% of the cost is in parts. If you supplied them, the labour and machining cost would be $1500.
Yes a new Steroids would cost around $8k-$9k, but this is not because of "high" labour charges.
P.S prices quoted are not POBJOY prices, just figures I thought they were worth, so if they are wrong its no reflection on what POBJOY charges But mick motors did quote me $1100 for the case
I'm more than happy to put my car on the Dyno at SAS and have spoken with Jak so as not to miss the next opportunity:thumb
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MickH
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 11:06 AM |
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My 1916 with counterweighted crank 040 heads and kadrons cost $6200 in 1996. Apart from Webbers, 044's were not available when mine was
built.They were released some months later. I paid $4000 for a second hand steroid with 044 heads and webbers with less than 15000km on it in mid
2002. I had money to burn but would not hesitate to build my own next time if I could find a decent engine balancer up here!!! :bounce
tssnq.com.au
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jakriz
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| posted on November 22nd, 2003 at 12:40 PM |
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At the end of the day, Stan has to make a living just like the rest of us. Obviously his engines speak for themselves & the owners of those
engines all seem to be happy as well.
Probably explains why he is not on here trying to defend himself, he doesn't have to. If I had the money, if my father wasn't a toolmaker
& could do all my case & head machining & if I didn't feel confident enough to put a motor together, it's comforting to know
that I could go to Stan for a fast engine. I've used many of his products over the years & so has my father & I'm still using his
anti-surge sump, theres nothing better out there!
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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lugnuts
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 03:11 AM |
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Hey hows it going,great thread keep it going,somebody mensioned ballancing are Stans motors dynamically balanced.Cant wait to the next dyno day to get
some figures for a real 1916,if it goes 120 or over ile start saving now. |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 01:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
BTW Wes, your chrome moly pushrods were noisier because they don't expand at the same rate as your motor, not because their stiffer.
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I don't want to change the subject, butI know they expand different. It just means you have to set them different to start with. You just set
them with almost no gap cold, and it opens a little when it heats up. Even when cold and no gap the pushrods were noiser than stock ones. being a baja
with no back it is noiser and more noticeable than in a beetle.
I must say I can't image spending over $3000 on a vw motor, so I find the fact people spend this much a little weird. But everyone can spend
their money on whatever they want I guess. These comments are not pobjoy specific or directed at him in any way.
I mean I went the easy way to HP with a jap conversion. A far superior engine. People say to me, "I like the challenge of making the vw motor go
hard", fine but I am not prepared to pay the silly amounts of money just for the sake of staying vw.
Or the other arguements of "I like to blow away other cars with a vw motor". Well I hate to say it but you won't blow away many
modified cars with a 120HP VW motor. I don't see the glory of blowing away a completely standard commodore family car with a $9000 vw motor. I
mean a $9000 turbo silvia import with an adjustable boost controller will blow away a 120HP vw (trust me my brother owns one - silvia).
And really it's a bit embarrassing how much people have to spend to make 120HP with a vw motor. Spend $9000 on a 13B turbo and you will have a
10second car with well over 400HP.
VW's go good at hill climbs due to their good handling and huge amounts of traction, not because they have awesome motors. I mean I like vw
motors, and like to see vw powered cars go well in competition, but they are nothing compared to modern engines and I make no false illusions to that
fact.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 03:22 PM |
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Craig. I have nothing against Stan's engines just want to see one actually get 100+ honest at the wheels ponies.
Bring it to the Dyno day on the 7th of December.
I'd love to see a naturally aspirated pump petrol 1916 break 100.
For $35 bucks on the rollers you can prove the disbelievers wrong.
i'd also like to see how yours stacks up compared to the "same" engine sold to anyone else for thier street car.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 04:15 PM |
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Very disappointing comments Wes, especially on a VW forum.
I'm well aware of lower cost HP vehicle alternative to the Beetle, with my brother being a leading motoring journo for several "High
performance car magazines" and my brother inlaw owning one of Australia's leading rotary race prep workshops, this fact is in my face every
day ! Big Deal about Jap imports like Silvia's etc, the people on this Forum enjoy VW's and VW powered vehicles.
Have you ever worked out the cost to duplicate your car if I owned it and I had to pay retail for all the work ??
How many Hours of labour have you and other people put in to get it where it is today 100, 150, 200man hours? now times that by $70min. Add the cost
of all your parts (I believe just over $4000) , add all the extra steel etc that you had lying around that I would have to buy. Now factor in the
towing cost involved for me to move it from each "shop" to have the work done, engineering reports, and the "loss of time" from my
work co-ordinating all this ????? Your CHEAP engine conversion has now cost ME $15000 easy, but under $5000 for you.
Not to mention that my race car now has to race in sports sedan class with your conversion ( wouldn't be competitive), or if it was my daily
driver I have now lost interior space.
Your comments regarding VW powered vehicles in motor sport is typical from someone who has clearly not entered or participated at state, national or
international level of motorsport.
I respect your Knowledge based answers to most forum questions, but clearly you need to experience and learn a whole lot more about Vw powered
vehicles in motorsport.
:thumb
Get back to the topic of the thread.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 04:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
Craig. I have nothing against Stan's engines just want to see one actually get 100+ honest at the wheels ponies.
Bring it to the Dyno day on the 7th of December.
I'd love to see a naturally aspirated pump petrol 1916 break 100.
For $35 bucks on the rollers you can prove the disbelievers wrong.
i'd also like to see how yours stacks up compared to the "same" engine sold to anyone else for thier street car.
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Do I really care what you want to see ? NO.
Doesn't matter what horsepower I have on "That" dyno it would probably be different on another, and whatever I get someone else will
critise anyway !:P
I will go to SAS when Jak and the others go, not a VW workshop in competition with my engine builder.
There's more than 1000 other pobjoy 1916 owners, as well as hundreds that have bought Pobjoy 1916 secondhand, go ask them how they go.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 04:38 PM |
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Never different in Shootout mode! Ever!
SAS use a dyno dynamics too. If they are doing power runs in anything but Shootout mode then the results can be whatever the operator wants them to
be... :-)
Oh yeah... I'm sure your race engine is quite different to the steroids anyone else gets for street use.
I'm sure I could close up the lash, loosen the fanbelt and change the fuels and timing in my street engine and get in another 15HP.
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Bizarre
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 04:42 PM |
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Sorry Craig - i have to have my say firts.
You dont have to look far to see the cost of a motor.
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ESE0002&c...
AC net is a good company. @ 72c in the US$ that is $5,000 even. No carbs, tin etc etc.
You wanna get scared go to Jake's site.
They go up to $20k! Aus
Drive in / drive out is a whole lot different to building it yourself. Let alone engineering it.
Sorry Wes - you loose on your arguement. You try driving a kombi in for a water cooled conversion and see how much is left from $5000 - zilch Well
actually a bill cause $5k wont cover it.
Some people dont/cant/wont build motors themselves. And ask our sponsors if they do motors and that is the go for motors like that.
Ring round and find some one who does a 1776/1916 non stroker for $5,000 turnkey.
I bet you wont find many.
You might find some that will with a 2nd hand case and carbs.
I am a cheap skate and i reckon i came close to 3k
carbs $1000
case $500
Crank heads P&Cs $500
cam $150
clutch $400
there is $2,500 and it the crank heads P&Cs carbs were all cheapo buys
You want knew carbs case crank etc etc then you pay. Simple.
Ring round Wes and see what you would pay for your mods if some one else did it.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 04:47 PM |
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The big thing Wes' argument misses is that some people want power from their air-cooled flat four regardless of cost vs going to water be the
water vw, holden, jap or whatever.
Those who want an exotic can get power from many sources for a dime from the thousands of daily added to wrecks... Those who want air will have to pay
more.
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
Scirocco Rare
6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Posts: 8040
Threads: 347
Registered: January 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Time to go Salt lake racing, and actually achieve a result.
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 05:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
Never different in Shootout mode! Ever!
SAS use a dyno dynamics too. If they are doing power runs in anything but Shootout mode then the results can be whatever the operator wants them to
be... :-)
Oh yeah... I'm sure your race engine is quite different to the steroids anyone else gets for street use.
I'm sure I could close up the lash, loosen the fanbelt and change the fuels and timing in my street engine and get in another 15HP.
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Learn about Dyno's. Shootout mode means the operator is unable to adjust the results between cars, this has nothing to do with the calibration of
the Dyno itself.
As for your motor comments, that's why I went to Stan in the first place, because with his motor's you don't need to do those pathetic
"smoke and mirror" tricks for performance. I was "sold" on my motor combination after driving it in a customers car. I also drove
the same motor in 1995 at valla in Ruth's daily driven superbug
YOU JUST DON"T GET IT DO YOU, what ever a pobjoy motor achieves, people like you will always come up with excuses like "rocket fuel",
"magical timing","that's not what a customer can have" blah blah blah.....
Do you really think I would power my race car, road car,J&S buggy, 54 oval, brothers oval, best friends buggy and his race car, my ex girlfriends
car my first Baja,and my second car with Pobjoy motors if they didn't perform !
Leave your conspiracy theories for the X files, I'm just enjoying the benefits of an excellent product.:thumb
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Peter Leonard
Super Moderator
Volatile
Posts: 1456
Threads: 52
Registered: April 18th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Perth
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: shiny
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| posted on November 23rd, 2003 at 06:19 PM |
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hijacking my %$%$&# thread
if you kids don't stop arguing you can all get out and walk home.
1. I am not here to give quotes on stan's behalf. you wanna know what it'll cost, he still has redirect on 96721275.
2. Thanks to Craig (and his tired mig) I now have a merged exhaust, with a bodgy muffler and a completely new set of soiled undies. yes craig, thanks
for the test drive
3. It's still not run in, but I've taken it to around 5000 rpm (seat of pants tacho, where you can feel the cam coming in pretty hard)
around the old backstreets. corners get sharp real fast:o especially with all this rain and a fair whack of understeer... :thumb all this crap about
not running a new engine in is insane; the timing had moved almost 4 degrees, and the valves were sloppier than an unattractive euphemism. thanks to
Craig's bewdiful new torque wrench and experience with the motor in question my heads are retorqued and she's purring again. This
'street' motor is so close to Craig's in design that it might as well be the same one. I have a better case, so nyeh :P heck I hope
that's right.. Craig?
on a different note, my VW motor (complete with stock pushrods) runs at a variety of different temperatures, depending on what I'm doing and
ambient air temperature. the stock pushrods are self adjusting according to the temp, whereas chrome-moly pushrods aren't. The best you can hope
for is a compromise with the chrome moly, or aim for a temperature that you're sure you'll be running at. I think i'd find that a
little annoying as a daily driver.
As yet there are few motors like mine and Craig's on the streets. i expect not many of these have been dynoed, we shall see what comes out on
the day. and either I'll eat my hat, or some $%^@#$ will say it was rigged. In a perfect world we could eliminate all the variables (air quality,
fuel type, bastard frikken electronics etc) and set up a benchmark once and for all. Somehow I doubt that's ever going to happen for 35 bucks.
for proof, get one, go for a drive, do the quarter mile figures and add it up, or build one with more horseys. and make it last, otherwise you'll
be getting unhappy customers... anyone unhappy? besides those who don't have one yet? start saving lugnuts
and one more thing,:cussing
:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce
(I DO NOT SPEAK FOR STAN POBJOY, ALL OPINIONS EXPRESSED HEREIN ARE MY OWN. SORRY IF I STEPPED ON ANYONE'S TOES.) gotta do the disclaimer
hehehehee
whoah. that's a long spew.:puke
let sleeping dubs lie
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