| [ Total Views: 1562 | Total Replies: 62 | Thread Id: 16696 ] |
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 Spook
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 07:59 AM |
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Who really cares??
A couple of points though.
"they lived like kings while their people starved". A man named Marcos did that too, but the yanks gave him sanctuary.
The difference was an American freindly dictator.
A poorly armed, poorly trained group of peasants threw the yanks out of Vietnam!
According to UN charter, saddam husux has done nothing wrong, it aint illegal to kill your own people. Doesn't matter whether you & I think
it's right or wrong that's how it is.
But seeing as how George W has made the UN redundant anyway, we'll see what happens.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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squizy
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 08:06 AM |
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I don't see the US jumping into Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe.
Squiz.....
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typ-fre
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 08:48 AM |
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sorry about the swearing ppl 
 
Gehts notch?
|.. ohhh shit!! wrong turn:P
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 02:48 PM |
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Thanks for the support guys. I have to say that I have a whole new respect(or should I say lack there of) for you Aussies after reading this. Maybe
we should just stick to ourselves. Sorry guys. Didnt realize you held us in such HIGH REGARD.
Let me see if I understand you right? You dont think the US should be in Iraq but it would be OK if we were in Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe. Well
then now I understand. We may overthrow one if we overthrow them all right?? That makes alot of sence. yes, there are lots of countries where
oppression is a way of life, and where human rights abuses are a daily occurence. The problem is that even the world's last super power
can't handle them all. So, what do you do? you look at taking on the task that gives you the greatest net benefit, that stabilizes not just a
country, but a region. Iraq fit the bill. By invading iraq, a dictator was removed from power, a power base established that allows america to lessen
it's reliance on the house of saud, a geographic sphere of influence created that will keep syria in check by surrounding it with relatively
stable and reasonable governments (iraq, jordan, turkey, and israel), and lessens the pressure on israel, thus allowing america to cut back the amount
it invests in israeli aid, while also undercutting a source of funding and support for the PLO, possibly helping to birng them back to the negotiating
table. Peripherally it sends a message to iran, north korea and others that the u.s. will do what it says it is going to do.
Why not get more heavily involved in africa? first there is the issue of trying to figure ot who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. with much
of the strife being tribal in nature, how do you decide which side to support? Next, you have the question of optics- after decades of
de-colonialization, how do you deal withe the issue of re-colonialization? in countries like liberia, congo, and somalia, wiht their almost total
absence of government, this would be the effective result. this is why the Un has not taken a more active role. The former african colonies
represented there would scream in outrage at the very idea of the white man taking over again, because they feel the natives can't get their act
together. Check out robert mugabe's routine at the recent commonwealth meetings.
"Picture me rollin"
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Unity-28
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:00 PM |
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Trayle sorry to say this bro, He wasnt there! Zimbabwe has been Suspended from the Commonwealth, For now which they have desided to stay out. BUt I
Support what the Coilition is doing. I do feel though that alot of it is "getting him back for Daddy" though. When You see pics of 400,000
people worth of mass graves, you really cant expect anyone not to act. I personally think the war has just started, All his supporters will be very
pissed about him getting caught, that they will start to lash out. BOttom line isthis problem is a lot bigger than any of us think, and IM glad its
someone else making those decisions and not me, cause I couldnt give the order to kill.
Nectar!
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Unity-28
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:10 PM |
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QUOTE! How many innocent civilians do you think the US led attack killed? Well some pretty damming statements say near on 10,000. How many people did
Mr Hussein kill over his time? Not sure but was probably a smidgen on the Innocent people the U.S directly or indirectly over the last 20-30 years. I
seriously am not bias for Saddam. But I am sick of people believing that the yanks would actually do something that is in the best interest of
everybody. It's a known fact that the U.S despise the middle east (maybe religion, maybe the fact that if they control the middle east they
control the most mineral rich part of the world)..
WTF the saudis are one on the US' biggest allies, And dont forget, that there are quite a few DIFFERENT religions in the middle east, and also
dont forget that there is a huge muslim population in the states. Another thing, Seddam slaughtered all his opposition parties way back when, and also
in 88 gassed a shiat load of kurds.Stop talking crap...
N!
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fatboy
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:36 PM |
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My prob with the whole situation is that they went storming in without the UN we do all of course know that Saddam is as guilty as hell just like
Rodney King was so we have effectivley dragged him out into the street and beat the crap out of him.
It would have been nice to do it right. But of course with no WMDs yet found then maybe thats why they couldn't wait.
How can we respect a country that is holding 2 Aussies without charges or any rights for almost 2 years.
They say they are guilty - but of what ?(No charges) from the media evidence hicks looks like he is but habib looks like he isn't
The US has a history of getting rid of governments it doesn't like (Panama Canal Project to name just one. Pres Truman if I recall).
One thing I do admire though is the way the US expands, ultimately the fall of the Roman Empire and of course Nazi Germany can be traced to spreading
yourself too thin - it is a bugger to police those countries you take over, but the US have gone for the Sub-contracting version of world domination -
after all if you can elect a pro US government to run a country then there is no reason to have to look after it yourself.
In answer to the question of which tyrant you start with then I thought the answer was obvious - The One with the Oil
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:45 PM |
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Sorry Unity I didnt make myself clear. It was not his antics at the meeting. it was his actions before and aft.
"Picture me rollin"
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fatboy
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:47 PM |
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Oops nearly forgot
for the benefit of our American friend
From The Age Newspaper
"Almost half the Australian public, according to the latest ACNielsen AgePoll, believe that Opposition Leader Mark Latham was correct in judging
President George W. Bush to be "the most incompetent and dangerous president in living memory". And slightly more than half think that the
ALP was right to oppose Australian participation in President Bush's invasion of Iraq. "
Makes me proud to be in Oz
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:49 PM |
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So it is settled then. Australian has spoken through the VW community. The United States is equal to the Nazis'. Thats fine we can live with
that. A complete fabrication, but you can have your opinion. At least I know now....
"Picture me rollin"
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Unity-28
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:54 PM |
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Damn, we as a country forget about the Boat people and everything else our own government does, but we can slam the shiat out of everyone else. Why
dont we see the UK getting verbally bashed in this whole saga....
N
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:54 PM |
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| Quote: |
In answer to the question of which tyrant you start with then I thought the answer was obvious - The One with the Oil
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Tipical conspiracy theory answer.... Almost laughable....
"Picture me rollin"
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:57 PM |
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Yes Untiy I was thinking the same thing. Only I couldnt find a article about that and didnt want to sound like I was talking about things I had didnt
know. I think you summed up my point though.
"Picture me rollin"
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Unity-28
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 03:57 PM |
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Funny thing is, IF we were to be in the shiat with indonesia, who would we call....
Not the ghostbusters thats for sure!
N!
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 04:00 PM |
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again you took the words out of my mouth. Many nations can start an arguement that the US has had some bad history. But in the end there is no
country in the world that does and much for needy countries and comes to the aid of its allies as the US does. You can fault GWB all you want be at
the very least you have to say that he understands that an isolationist nation is volnerable. Clinton proved that, and before that Japan made that
obvious.
"Picture me rollin"
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squizy
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 04:39 PM |
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Trayle you've certainly taken this very much to heart. We [both Aussies and US] live in a democracy - we also have freedom of speech. Which is
the beauty of our countries. Whilst we may share a love of VW's, we may differ in our political opinions and how we feel our countries, and the
world should be run. That doesn't mean that I dislike American's, the same way my comments shouldn't make you dislike Aussies.
I don't agree with anything that Bush has done. I don't agree with anything that Howard has done. I am proud to say that. My comment about
Zimbabwe was tongue in cheek - to provoke a reaction - and to provide a compare / contrast analysis.
Happy dubbing.
Squiz.....
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Flying VW
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 04:58 PM |
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I'm now convinced, that there are to many people smoking home grown medication. 
BAJA NOW FITTED WITH A FULL FLYING REBUILD
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 04:58 PM |
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And I on the other hand think that Bush has made the world a safer place. And more over let the world and terrorist in particular know that the US is
done being stepped on by terrorist and will not just stand by and wait for the innevitable. Only time will tell, but I for one am an optomist. You
choose to be the oposite, thats your choice.... So be it.
"Picture me rollin"
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11CAB
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 05:01 PM |
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Ok beofre I start this is Mel Not Graham.....I just couldn't be stuffed re-loggin in....
I am a humanitarian more than anything else....I don't really see flags & emblems.....I see faces of children without parents....I see death
& destruction of whole villages/towns/cities....to me it is irellevant who is to blame.....or who stops it or who started it or what excuses they
use!
I see that no-one has bought up the circumcision of women in alot of Afircan countries as well as the circumcision of boys/men in our
society....No-one has mentioned the oppression of women in most Asian countries or the fact that girl babies are killed rather than be allowed to grow
up in China because male children can work harder.......
There are sooo many atrocities that happen all over the world every single day & we as a collective people let it go by because we are more
worried about the price of oil/petrol than the amount of lives that have been lost getting it off their shores & onto ours....
I have been known to say that most Americans I have met are arrogant beyond reason but let it be said I know more than a few Asutralians who could
easily fit into the same category!
What it boils down to is that everyone in the western world has the entitlement of free speech & free thought......sometimes we actually choose to
use it.....sometimes it is heard but unfortunately....politics being as they are...99% of the time our voices fall on deaf ears.
Religion & politics....two topics never discussed at the dinner table....ever wonder why?.....My opinion is that you can never get 2 people who
are imformed, educated & care enough to know everything there is to know on either topic....
World leaders do more than sit & talk about interior design......they are running the lives of millions upon millions of folks worldwide...&
better them than most of the uneducated & uninformed authors seen on this world wide forum, passing judgment on people they have never met &
discussing issues & matters they think they know intimately.
Now don't get me wrong...I will not pass judgment on anybody here...I just think that there are certain opinions here that should have remained
less open.
I have my own.....to name a few I think that Hitler was a brilliant man...charismatic beyond belief.....just MAD beyond reason with his own power...if
only he used his power for good instead of evil.....
I also think that dropping the Bombs on Japan was one of the worst war crimes ever carried out.....but it did stop the war....
& who the hell invented napahlm (spelling???)......I still for the life of me can't look into the face of that little girl seen running down
the street with her skin melting off without feeling a sense of shame at being part of the human race......
But the beauty is there in the shadows waiting to be appreciated....like the hand of a 26 week old featus grabbing the finger of a surgeon saving its
life before it has even taken its first breath....(a picture I saw once..) or the smell of rain on a summer day or even hearing your loved ones laugh
& seeing them smile.......all good things......
All in all I have said my piece & will give Graham his keyboard back.......
65 Meyers Manx
68 Country Buggy (KO 367)
68 Country Buggy (KO 669)
68 Country Buggy (KO 789)
68 Country Buggy (KO 815)
68 Baja Bug
76 Baja Kombi Twincab
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 05:08 PM |
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Dr. Louis Fieser, 68, is one of the nation's most distinguished chemists. A professor emeritus at Harvard, he has won a number of national awards
for his research into the chemical causes of cancer, and was a member of the U.S. Surgeon General's committee that issued the 1964 report linking
cigarette smoke with the disease. Fieser was also a pioneer in developing laboratory production of vitamin K, the body's blood-clotting agent,
and antimalarial drugs. Despite these impressive credentials of service to mankind, he has lately received a number of angry letters. Reason: back in
1943, Fieser invented napalm.
The discovery was something of a coup for Fieser. His research team at Harvard beat chemists from Du Pont and Standard Oil in a Government competition
to develop napalm. In the course of his research, Fieser found a perfectly good civilian use for the product: it made a fine crab-grass killer,
burning away its seeds while leaving good grass roots untouched. During and after World War II, he received several letters of thanks for his
invention, which soldiers claimed saved saves thousands of American lives in battle. No one ever complained to him about the use of napalm until
Vietnam.
Unlike some of the physicists who helped produce the atomic bomb, Fieser has no moral qualms about his role in producing one of modern warfare's
most fearful weapons: "I have no right to judge the morality of napalm just because I invented it." Nor does he blame the Dow Chemical Co.
for manufacturing napalm: "If the Government asked them to take a contract, and they're the best ones in a position to do so, then
they're obliged to do it."
As a scientist, Fieser refuses to engage in debate on the Vietnam war, on the ground that "I don't know enough about the situation." A
researcher, he insists, cannot be responsible for how other people use his inventions. "You don't know what's coming," he says.
"I was working on a technical problem that was considered pressing. I'd do it again, if called upon, in defense of the country."
"Picture me rollin"
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Thook
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 05:19 PM |
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Point taken.......
It is not the inventor of the product.......it is the bastards that use it to destroy that deserve our thoughts.....
Thanks for pointing that out to me Lovie....
Sorry this is Mel.....Graham didn't want my opinions under his name......
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:09 PM |
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Terrorism?
Hiroshima ... 6 August 1945
Japanese offer surrender 8 August 1945
Nagasaki ... 9 August 1945.
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penguin
A.k.a.: Chris
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ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:12 PM |
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This whole thing??????
Just let me say this is my opinion, but I think we all need to take a look at ourselves when we come out with things like 'Over half Australians
think....' or 'All Australians say....'. Thats about as true as me saying I will have my bug on the road by Easter next year. Its only
newspaper polls or similar. We all have different opinions and as per that piece of editorial genius (slight sarcasm) we called the wording of for
referendum on the republic, its how things are worded that gets you a result.
I daresay I could easily get anyone of you a 100% response that the war was a good thing and that we should go after (insert your favourite country
here) next. I just have to word it correctly and got to certain areas to ask people who I think meet certain criteria predetermined before I ask.
Basically, please do not put out words that say on behalf of all Australians unless you have asked them all, or even half of them.
Say it as your opinion, unless you have all the folk covered. Take responsibility, no silent majority, or the popular feeling stuff.
Personally as someone who got to go over to that region earlier this year, has a lot of friends still there, Aust, US and Brit, I think it was
correct, maybe nowhere near soon enough, but better to do something than nothing.
Now for our US friends this may be confusing, Howard is our Prime Minister, Latham is the opposition leader. I do not profess my politics, they are
all as bad as the others.
You can label Howard whatever you want, but then he never thumped a taxi driver and broke the drivers arm or left his wife. But then Latham never got
drunk and manhandled another senator in the senate or introduced a tax that he said he wouldn't.
Basically if you want to change things why don't you get involved. the comment before of 'I don't vote'. Great, shut the **&#
up then unless you want to vote, then you can get your say. Just like if you don't pay your money, don't expect me to give you food.
Yes, Oil was involved, but if you honestly think that that was the be all and end all of the whole thing, then you really are smaller in your
appreciation of things than I could imagine.
I don't agree with GWB on what he says or how he does things, but as I am an Australian (and very damn proud of it) I feel annoyed when other
Australians hang crap on him, the very same way I feel ticked when people of other countries hang on our people.
All this goes to show is that perhaps this is a conversation better suited to long distance, particularly as many respondents seem to be taking this
very personally and would most likely spill beer if they were to do this face to face.
Why don't we all just calm down, get a few beers, and think about what to do to our cars next?
'Ah, whatever................'
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penguin
A.k.a.: Chris
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:24 PM |
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Hiroshima
Lets see now,
1st Dec Hirohito signs declaration of war against the US
Japanese deliver a two-line note to US Ambassador on afternoon of Dec. 8th, Tokyo Time (late morning, Dec. 7th, T.H.Time.)
However the attack on Pearl Harbour was at Dec 7th 0755hrs...
Now tell me who was faultless? And if its just semantics of delivery of a message, then why is the surrender of Japan listed as August 15th, because
thats when it actually was accepted. Think that no terms of surrender were changed in that time? or that no allied troops (or Japanese) were killed in
the intervening time? Yes they were, to both.
'Ah, whatever................'
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penguin
A.k.a.: Chris
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:27 PM |
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This
:beer Bugger all this, its getting too serious, far too serious and too much like work. Off to the bar :beer :beer
"Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know.
Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen."
--Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless
"Lord, lord, lord. Protect me from the consequences of the above prayer."
--ibid.
'Ah, whatever................'
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:29 PM |
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Your good bro. I was just searching for that information. Thats right though. The japanese had a track record of deception. In the days leading
up to Dec. 7 Japan had also been pushing its position of peace.
"Picture me rollin"
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penguin
A.k.a.: Chris
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:34 PM |
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No probs
Sorry, its just work. I had to read up on it for a few things last promotion course.
I got get out of here and head over to the Mess for a drink............... need beer......
'Ah, whatever................'
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penguin
A.k.a.: Chris
Bishop of Volkswagenism
ackkkkkk thhhhhpt!
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Member Is Offline
Location: Canberra, ACT
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Very tired, 3 little girls tired......
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| posted on December 16th, 2003 at 06:38 PM |
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Nah,
think of it downhill on the Hume with a tailwind... no cops.... just you and the road...........
Bugger the light steering in this thing!!
Cheers, going, going, go....
'Ah, whatever................'
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Da Wiz
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 330
Threads: 27
Registered: December 11th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Perth, WA
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: ¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸
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| posted on December 18th, 2003 at 10:58 AM |
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I DO feel sorry for the ppl killed in all of this, what I felt sorry about (re Saddam) was that he was lulled into this by the US administration over
many years, then they turn on him. Just seems like another US change of government in a country that can lend itself to being milked for the
betterment of the US. Smells like more sh!t to me!!!
Anyway Chomskey is a good read, for a for concise and better balanced view on understanding of the situation in the middle east.
http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/chomsky.htm
Oh and it sh!ts me how everyone is terrorists nowdays, got a problem ... blame terrorists, I think they (terrorists) should start up their own company
... "got a problem that needs to blamed on someone else ... da-da-daaa-da (Ghostbuster music here) ... Terr-or-rists ... naaaananaaaaananaaaa
(more ghostbuster music) 
¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.-> Keepin' it Real !!
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buzzbug
A.k.a.: Mr X
Custom Title Time!
Praise the lowered
Posts: 1992
Threads: 182
Registered: March 7th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Sunshine Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: low and slow in nowra NSW.
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| posted on December 18th, 2003 at 11:19 AM |
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hey penguin are you ARA or RAAF?
some people are like slinky's
they have no useful purpose
but they are fun to watch
when you push them down the stairs
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