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 Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 05:21 PM |
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the yellow cabrio
puts out around 220bhp (i think) n/a and then has another 100-150bhp of NOS on tap if needed.....
kai
[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Kai.A.]
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 vw54
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 05:35 PM |
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1 Have a LOT of Money
2 Have a lot of time
3 30Lbs of Turbo Boost
4 Run it on Methonal
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 06:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Kai.A.
vw flat 4 motors will never be high revving motors!!!! kai
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Never say never. plenty of VW's producing the revs. Peter Gumleys
supercharged T4 revs past 8000rpm no probs.
to produce that type of HP (300hp) from a normally aspirated 4cyl you will always need high revs. That's why the Nissan is producing the power at
over 8000rpm.
If only VW's had another two bearings holding the crank !!
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 06:56 PM |
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yeh. 8000 is probably around about the limit for a race motor.
we'll never get 10,000 plus like motorbikes though....
and if reliability is an issue then it'll definately never reach those kind of revs....
if you read some of the power outputs the americans are getting, often from 'claimed' street driven cars, you've gotta wonder really, 300hp isn't
too extreme for them....
kai
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 07:21 PM |
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do Americans have 300hp with normally aspirated motors ?
I'm not up with American cars, so are they claiming these figures?
how are they doing it ?:jesus
there's your answer Cam !
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 07:32 PM |
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probably not 300hp n/a... it's just every time i see a mag or website with american dubs their power figures seem huge!
i'm gonna scrounge round my room for some magazines.....get some actual figures up here.
kai
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 07:41 PM |
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I had a look at that Russ Fellows drag car from your suggested web site................he is only doing 14.01 without the
turbo:jesus......................we have plenty of normally aspirated cars in the 13's !
11.2 with the turbo !!
Amazing how a turbo can make up for performance.
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 07:45 PM |
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just found an issue of ultra vw with a dyno day feature in the back....
the best n/a is a 2332 with 200hp, 177lb ft torque....
the best turbo is a 2332 with 336hp and 392 lb ft.
theres also:
n/a 1776 wth 146hp
n/a 2175 wth 185hp and 156 lb ft
n/a 2276 with 155hp and 144lb ft
turbo 2332 330hp 290lb ft
turbo 2276 332hp 330lb ft (in a bloody street driven buggy!!!!!)
turbo 2165 298hp 287lb ft
turbo 1914 266hp 245lb ft
so for an 'easy' 300hp, turbo is surely the way....
quite a few of them claim to be driven on the street too.
kai
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 07:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
I had a look at that Russ Fellows drag car from your suggested web site................he is only doing 14.01 without the
turbo:jesus......................we have plenty of normally aspirated cars in the 13's !
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i don't know the details of his run/runs without the turbo, but it's simple really, the engine is built for turbo, it runs cam profiles best suited
for a turbo and low compression.
so it's not surprising that without the turbo it doesn't run that strong.
kai
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 08:11 PM |
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valid point.
so 71mmstrokex104mm pistons...... and a turbo!
but Cam wants it normally aspirated !!!
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 08:27 PM |
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yeh, i know cam wants it normally aspirated.... the best example i have found so far is the yellow cabrio, but then he uses NOS to get the
power.....
i spose really i'm putting forward my view that if you want big power you shouldn't overlook turbos, it's fairly proven that you can get huge power
and reliability on pump fuel...
kai
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 08:43 PM |
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no question about turbo's........ I'd love to have one !
but the trick here is to try and screw every HP without one.
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 09:58 PM |
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Then there is buckleys of getting those figures out of a kraut without blowing it. Other than in our dreams......................
L8tr
E
[Edited on 9/4/04 by tassupervee]
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 10:10 PM |
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there's your answer Cam.:cry
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Kai.A.
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 10:19 PM |
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with enough $ and a load of r&d anything is possible.
maybe a big type 4, like 2.8 odd.... then your only asking 100hp/tonne....could be more of a possibility.
kai
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 9th, 2004 at 10:27 PM |
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Ahh yes but he was quite specific in using type 1 clobber!
Fact remains is that to get 150BHP/litre is close to unnatainable with anything we can get our grubby little hands on and furthermore, I doubt iffen I
could get that much from a dak dak id be buggered if I would let anyone in on the secret!!!!!!!!!
However, every man has his price................
:thumb
L8tr
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Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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whatnow
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| posted on April 10th, 2004 at 09:51 PM |
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a few ideas i have been toying with..... bore and stroke ??? 69 or smaller stroke prob.
al case, through bolted. crank... make it with larger main and rod journals, poss narrow the rod journals and widen the mains... all to try and reduce
crank flex.
94mm+ p & c. move the studs if necessary.
some form of overhead springless valve accuation, possibly set up to advance/retard the valve timing (not only crank angle timing but comparitive
inlet and exhaust timing) to keep the thing on the boil.
a serious redesign of the heads... 2,3,4,5 valves??? twin plugs for monster compression. ports designed to reduce reverse flow so you can stretch the
duration. designed by someone who can get the charge in and out and get the most out of it along the way. ie a top end race motor head designer.
if you want to stretch the power band... a system that will change the legnth of the intake and exhaust manifolds.
make as much as possible out of super expensive alloys. (bragging rights)
use every heat/surface treatment you can think of
find the most skilled and anal retentive balancer (and machinest etc too) in the world to work on it.
etc etc.
now who wants to throw say $20 or 30 million my way, i know i can do it (or at least find the people who can). anyone?
[Edited on 10-4-2004 by whatnow]
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Cam
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 12:28 AM |
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Wow! :o you guys are guns!!!
What are Desmodronic valves?
Ultimately that big HP in a beetle motor IS unrealistic. I can see it happening. But it would take US VWDRC team budgets and research to achieve it.
I do want snap on power though. Guess I've been out of fast dubs for too many years now 
However... We have the weight advantage. But, I still think boost is the answer.
I like the idea of having it type 1 based. They're just LIGHT motors... And lets face it the less weight out back the better.
911 head conversion will be a must! As will 911 nikies. Blueprinting the induction so as the turbo is working as little as possible to make to most
boost is also a must.
The bottom line... I dunno, it's good friday. I'm dog tired and unsure enough of my digestive system (chocolate aftermath) at the moment let alone
where I'd like to go with an engine.
But I think this makes a great topic of conversation 
For some reason I don't think bearing strength would be much of an issue. But yeah, boost is the answer for our little four bangers!
Happy Easter All!
Cam
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whatnow
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 08:50 AM |
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cam, the stuff about increasing the bearing size is to increase the overlap of the journals and the meat in the journals.... to help increase the
stregnth and reduce the flex in the crank.... ie to reduce the amount of hp lost and increase engine/case life. if you narrowed the rod journals and
didn't widen the mains you could increase the web thickness... more strength.
desmo is a system that ducati used (in the 70's?), that uses a system of cams and levers to open AND CLOSE the valves. they origonally came with
helper springs to help close the valves, but i think it was a common thing to remove them. ie while there was in increase in reciprocating weight, the
engines weren't working against heavy springs to open the valves and they couldn't bounce (well noone told me they couldn't bounce but to me it is
logical that they couldn't... unless you broke something  ). a quick
search should find you more info.
right. it's nationals time.
happy easter all.
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 01:07 PM |
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Youre pretty close with the desmodromic thing.
Altho desmodromic (desmo for short) is exclusively used on Ducati bikes, the design has been around since Adam was a boy, gawd only knows when and was
in use im pretty sure well before ww2.
The system is not really that tech actually (other than from a design viewpoint) with the camshaft having 2 lobes per valve per cylinder which are
mirror images of each other and a typical rocker opening the valve with another rocker working on its own rocker shaft mounted below the opening
rocker shaft that works off the "other lobe" that closes the valve.
Valve clearences are set by opening "shims" (lash caps) and different thicknesses of the closing shims.
The valve itself has ordinary grooves machine into it and the groove located the collets that retain the closing shim, like an ordinary machined down
spring retainer 'cept upside down. The closing rocker looks like a fork on the valve end and operates on the underside of the closing "shim".
Yes, there is a "hairspring" around the closing rocker shaft but the benifits of removing it in all but the most wild of race engines is pretty
doubtful, you can push the closing rocker down against the "spring" with your little finger.
Benefits of desmo gear is little rotational resistance due to no springs and the valves are positively closed and cannot ever bounce.
Disadvantages are mostly from a design viewpoint, particularly in getting the included valve angles necessary to make a decent head work to actually
be able to exploit the rpm ranges that desmo actuation will benefit and fitting in extra valves, its a nightmare from that standpoint.
I think a fundamental drama with getting the type of zing necessary here is that an oldefashioned crakcases are just a bit too flexible. I dont think
that Ferdinand had 10,000 + RPM in mind when pencilling in the Peoples Wagon engine!
This is enough of a hassle with blown low rev krauts now. With the cases stretching all over the show!.
There are quite a few F1 engine builders tackling this very type of thing as we speak!!!!!!LOL
L8tr Men
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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AdrianH
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 08:12 PM |
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If you destroked it to say 64mm, used a b piston or even a piston with a higher pin height (into the oil control ring) you would significantly reduce
the width of the engine, could probably even run a slightly shorter rod.
This would help reduce the length (and weight) of the pushrods.
Changing the oiling system to the heads so it fed and drained without running through the pushrod would help.
The 6mm stem valves available and lightweight lifters allow use of single springs to 8500 RPM.
The case is the limiting factor, aftermarket cases with through bolts at the mains are a good start (performance technology, scat, new CB case ???)
One of the highest HP I have heard of in a T1 case is 260 NA, the car ran 10.60 in the 1/4, Geoff Hart racing in the US. I am pretty sure it was a
2332 running 62mm terminator carbs, drags only though.
If you want that HP on the track and still have it streetable then turbo is the easiest answer. Crank up the boost, pour in the race gas and your off
!!
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pete wood
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 08:55 PM |
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big revs
spoke to the owner of the grey C&V drag beetle on easter saturday. While the car the was tyre spinning across it's lane it was over running into
the 10,500-11,000rpm bracket.
Really serious stuff.
He's running a big dollar Pauter engine with draw through 4barrel holley/turbo setup. This means he can't run a rev limiter. He's already learn't
that lesson. Blew up a plennum on the start line because of pooling fuel and nitrous while the rev limiter was working.
He said he doesn't know how much power the car is producing exactly as they can't strap it to the dyno well enough, it comes on boost and frys the
tyres ON THE DYNO!.
He reckons it's producing around the 500hp (at the crank) mark with low boost and no Nitrous.
Without a turbo that might be the sort of power and revs your talking about, but I reckon it's bigger than 2332 and the engine would have to be worth
in excess of $50k.
BIG dollars :o
Just a thought, why not cut some toyota 20valve heads in half and fab up some stuff to fit them to a boxer. With the destroking and big revs it might
come close. Ferrari have been producing powerful, hi-revving boxers for decades, haven't they?
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 11th, 2004 at 11:38 PM |
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Indde Ferrari have but not 150 BHP/Litre easily.
mebbe at F1 level.
Still the original post specified Type 1 clobber with no forced induction.
A very big ask!!!!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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pete wood
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| posted on April 12th, 2004 at 05:06 PM |
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slip yoke con-rods
did any of you guys see a report on a slip-yoke (I think that was the name for it) set up for subaru boxers designed here in australia.
It had a single conrod (joined in the middle) going across the motor that connected with a piston at each end. The crank only had two rod journals.
One for each conrod. The crank went in the middle and it had a slip bearing in the middle that was 0 shaped so the rod only moved laterally, not in a
circular motion. This cuts down on side loads or something to make the engine smoother and revs more comfortably. Spose you could make one for an
aircooled engine. However you would need a special crank and it would change the firing order. Does anyone know if onyone has used this setup
before?
If it has been used before on say a BMW bike, you could steel the conrods from that and make up a crank to suit. It would also give you more room
inside the case to add extra length for the case bearing journals.
What do you reckon?
Just another idea.
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 13th, 2004 at 10:00 AM |
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I think that another limiting factor is the essential design of the case. There are only 3 main bearings that support the crank with the 4th for the
pulley. A EJ20T has a bearing between each journal which is much stronger which stops the crankshaft from flexing. in the type 1 case the studs are
only threaded into soft magnesium, the type 4, porsche and scooby have through bolts which make much more sense.
Also the heads are pretty limiting, unless you manage to fit heads from another car on. The wedge combustion chamber design works on squish, the
spark plug position is at an angle to the side. A modern head has 4 valves, pentroof chamber with teh sparkplug in the dead centre at the top. The
chamber is designed for swirl, have u seen the Alfa Romeo JTS system? It utilises direct injection into the cylinder.
I dont think that a streetable and durable 300HP is likely from a N/A type 1 motor which uses at least a factory case - short of a small fortune
pumped into the motor.
I am not criticising the design of the type 1, it was advanced for its time - but you would be kidding yourself if you are putting it on the same
level as a modern motor such as the EJ20T.
I do dream of building a turbo 1916 or 2110 or something similar though
Shoehorning in a EJ20T would be too easy
Jon
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GL1972
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| posted on April 13th, 2004 at 10:21 PM |
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What ever happened to the SPG Roller Cranks? Difficult setup with oil sprayers and all but they could rev! A guy I knew in the early eighties had a
Manx with a 2180, 48IDAs with one. The thing would wheelstand easy. |
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AdrianH
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| posted on April 14th, 2004 at 08:37 AM |
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The roller cranks are pressed together, under shock loads (like your friend was doing) they have a tendancy to twist out of alignment.
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dozerman
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| posted on April 14th, 2004 at 11:57 AM |
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vw horspower
It's all research and development.The old AUTOCAVEN rally cross beetle had a 2.1 t1 subaru 16valve head conversion and turbo I think it was making
500bhp.I hung out with some guys in texas who did chevys and the research they put into the old 2 valve pushrod motor was just amazingIn 1992 we
dynoed a 403 cui splayed valve chevy with carburators on race gas made 980hp@ about 9800rpm if I rember correctly(this was the boss's engine.Another
engine the same specs less 2 little tricks only made 910hp.So dyno time is where its at or using proven parts and info.P.S. In the NHRA PROSTOCK
class the development costs for 1 hp are $100,000 U.S. |
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dozerman
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| posted on April 14th, 2004 at 08:01 PM |
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it's all about research and devolpment and the physical limits of your particular mechanical combo.There is a formula that can give you max hp of a
particular engine I can't recall exactly but it's got to do with valve area vs pistion area it's a pretty complex deal but they use it for F1.All
engines are air pumps so a lot of tricks will transfer across to the vw engine,not all will work thats why they call it R+D.As for the small block
chevy I hung out with some real texans that ran a pair of B/Altereds(oldsmobile cutlas) in 1992 (very simular to our pro stockers)402cui splayed
valve heads dominators vpc18 fuel yada yada it made 980hp @9600rpm (723@178ph) another identical engine with a normal firing order and angled
intake(conventional) made 70 hp less.They say in prostock in the USA it will cost you $100.000 U.S for 1 HP.I say keep your eyes open and look every
where for secrets because if guys with 1400hp engines are looking for 1-2 hp they will try anything it might take a while but the numbers soon add up
after all it's only money right.haha |
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pete wood
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| posted on April 16th, 2004 at 07:03 PM |
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what about less power?
what if you got a 1litre vw motor to produce 150BHP first?
it would be a good staring place.
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