| [ Total Views: 5142 | Total Replies: 85 | Thread Id: 44754 ] |
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 AdrianH
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 09:03 AM |
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If your rod ratio is the same (using a longer length rod in a stroker) the only real difference is the clearancing weakening the case. And if you are
running a huge spings and a mega clearanced cam - possibble breakage.
Even a stroker can be built for longeivity if you so desire. The realities are most are built to make big power. Stuff breaks at 200 hp, its not if
but when.
Horses for courses
How bout them T4s eh !
CT, rod bolts are cheap insurance, unless you know that they werent overtorqued, and stretched, I would be inclined to change them.
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 11:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Hi 56 Astro,
Can you be constructive in disussing parts or pass on your engine building experience rather than preach your (or somebody else's) theories? I'm not
meaning to offend but I find the above comment pointless in this thread.
CYA CT
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Harsh! If this is a chat or 'discussion', maybe 56s Astro's comments pointing out one of the downsides of stroker cranks are valid in a thread on
engine building..?
On that note, WTF is a "cc rating"?!
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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56astro
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 12:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Hi 56 Astro,
Can you be constructive in disussing parts or pass on your engine building experience rather than preach your (or somebody else's) theories? I'm not
meaning to offend but I find the above comment pointless in this thread.
CYA CT
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Haha
you crack me up.
There have been 31 replies to this "chat" thread, and you have ONE extra engine combo (provided by Lugnuts), and you reckon MY replies are
pointless.
I was going down the stroker path for a daily driver, but they simply don't stand the test of time. So I won't post the details of my "dream
combo", cause it would have been a "nightmare como".
You know yourself what the sweetest combo for your engine is, and who could put it together. Give him a call .....
:cry
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 12:12 PM |
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Glenn,
I'm just weary of the stoker debate. Let's not go there.
I agree, WTF is cc rating?
Attached is a picture of where I plan to mount my oil cooler this time around. Thoughts are invited.
CYA CT
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esratrams
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AdrianH
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:02 PM |
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OK my england wasnt quite technically correct. I should have said - bigger capacity engines. Give me a break, Im a Kiwi
Bledisloe
On that note heres a couple of combos...
1904 that I just finished
74mm welded DMS crank
Stroke relieved stock rods
120 engle cam
Brazillian lifters
CB straight cuts
Chromo pushrods
Deep sump
90.5 cima P and Cs
40 x 35 mildly ported heads, 3 angle valve job, Berg HD singles. 51cc chambers
44 IDFs with 36mm vents
1 1/2" exhaust.
9:1 compression
1.1:1 VW rockers on solid bugpack shafts
This engine was built for a 1500, is not a screamer. It will rev to about 5500. The engine was more about torque than HP. So far this engine has only
had the cam break in done on it - no problems.
The stupid square filters dont fit with the shroud...
Happening now is a 2276
82 CB crank
Berg 12lb flywheel
Kennedy St1 and daiken disc
5.4" H beam rods
94mm pistons with Total seal second rings
deep sump
CB straight cuts
AC net alloy pushrods
044 44 x 37.5 heads ported by Darren Krewenchuk. 4 angle valve job, 58cc chambers, dual VW dia. springs. .040" copper head gaskets.
48 DRLAs with 42mm vents
1 5/8" exhaust.
9.6:1 Compression.
30mm oil pump (external cooler etc...)
CB K8 copy and CB lifters
CB 1.4:1 ratio rockers
The heads were ported for the car - 55 with IRS, stock gears in a SSC box. Set up for 3 gear 1/4 miles.
The engine prior to this was a 2110, using cnc ported oval ports 42 x 37. The engine ran out of cam by the time the heads started working.
The guy who ported the heads for the 2276 mentioned that CB uses the same seat regardless of wether the valve size is 42 or 44mm. The 42mm valve tends
to be deep set and shrouded because of this.
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:13 PM |
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lol... a Kiwi. That explains it! :P
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Quoll
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 03:11 PM |
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ok go easy on me I am engine building newbie :P
ok here is my current dream (budgetish) combo
69mm cw crank
94mm pistons
120 engle cam
P&P 043 heads
Chromo pushrods
1.4:1 rockers
aluminum case
lightened flywheel
1 1/2 exhaust
all fed by a draw through 4age supercharger setup
don’t know about comp ratio or what carb/carbs though
My current setup:
stock everything but
88mm pistons
Holley bugspray (200cfm)
P&P 040s *home job
econo extractors
now if everything that I have read on the interweb is true my car should be a gas guzzler (I get about 10L to 100 which I am happy with), have massive
blow by and should explode into a massive fireball some time in the near future. |
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 03:40 PM |
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Likewise my car should be experiencing massive blowby due to warped thin wall cylinders
My combo (only the second VW engine I've built, and a compromise due to time restraints);
69mm Counterweighted crank
92mm Cima barrels and forged pistons = 1835cc
stock rebushed rods
HSC stage 2 cam (biggest mistake I ever made)
Empi deep sump
044 heads, SS 37 x 35 valves (I think) HD single springs - absolutely on work at all.
Stock pushrods and rocker gear
Recycled AS41 case from a FI type 3
lightened flywheel
all rotating components staticly balanced (rods end for end to 0.1g)
crank and flywheel dynamically balanced
1 1/2 (I think) thunderbird extractors
twin Kadrons (std jets)
type four oil cooler
external breather
8.5 : 1 compression
009 with electronic points replacement
All in all its not a bad motor - pull from 2500 ish to 5500 and will rev over 6000 without trouble (no point though), brisk rather than really quick.
I wish now that I had put a name brand cam in it - I've only heard by hearsay what the grind is on the HSC2, and its almost not worth bothering (from
memory +8 thou lift and +5° duration from stock). Its a pain in the ass when its cold, has a 009 flat spot and a couple of other minor issues.
What I would like to do in the future is a set of 1.4:1 ratio rockers with elephant feet adjusters, port and polish on the 044's, get a set of
aluminium manifolds for the kadrons (I hve the steelies right now) and have them match ported, get a set of AJ simms 46IDK kadron's, one of the Bosch
043 vacuum / mech dizzy's and a good quality 1 5/8" fully merged exhaust system (with wanky ceramic coating ). After doing all that work I'd then love to find someone who knew VW's and kadrons and get it properly
dyno tuned.
I reckon that my motor would make about 80hp at the flywheel. With the mods above I think (still at 8.5:1) it would be 100 - 110 hp or there abouts.
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bat69
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 05:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Are your heads street eliminators?
CYA CT
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No I run 044 heads. I was going to update to SE but after some consideration I dont think the few hps I will gain would be $$$ well spent, plus I
would have to re tune and all that........ all costing more $$$$
There is a very simple way to over come lack of HP. Just drive harder...........
[ Edited on 17/10/2005 by bat69 ]
White Knuckle Racing Team
"Drive it like dirt"
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AdrianH
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 05:37 PM |
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CT,
did you experience any wear in the lifter bores ?
Heres am 86b webcam and web lifters after 1200 km with duals and .555" lift at the valve. The cam had lots of little bits welded to it. The lifter
bores are being rebushed as they are flogged out (new case 1200ks on it) The last Hot VWs had a good article on lifter bore problems and fixes.
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 09:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by AdrianH
CT,
did you experience any wear in the lifter bores ?
Heres am 86b webcam and web lifters after 1200 km with duals and .555" lift at the valve. The cam had lots of little bits welded to it. The lifter
bores are being rebushed as they are flogged out (new case 1200ks on it) The last Hot VWs had a good article on lifter bore problems and fixes.
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]
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So, what caused this?
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 11:41 PM |
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If I was guessing purely from an engineering standpoint I'd say too high a load on the lifter face or too little lubrication.
So I'd be interested to hear what really caused it
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AdrianH
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 06:05 AM |
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Spring pressure was 300 lbs at full opening. I dont think it was lubrication, possibly more to do with relative hardness of cam and lifters. No
suspect material found in filter or oil after breakin.
The other possible cause is a lack of lifter spinning due to the bores being flogged out and the rocking of the lifter stopping normal spin in the
bore. This problem was made worse by the bores being cut for a cam lifting .440" then changing my mind and going to a cam that lifted .383". There
was well over .100" clearance at a closed position (cam to lifter). The bores and lifters were within standard tolerances when I built it. The lifter
faces that are least damaged (or undamaged) had the least wear in the bores.
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:36 AM |
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Hi Quoll,
I just had a look at your engine specs. It's probably not a good idea to use 1.4 ratio rockers with an Engle 120 cam. You'd end up with something
like .585 lift on a cam that is probably only designed to lift .460 at the valve (Guessing the specs).
The 120 is designed for 1.1 rockers and you could get away with 1.25 depending on coil bind and possibly valve to piston clearence. 1.4s should be
used with something like an Engle K8.
Hi Adrian,
My lifters weren't pitted they were at different stages of wear. One pair looked fine. One pair no longer had a radius. One pair had stopped spinning
and you could see that a groove was about to start. Then there was the pair that buggered everything. By nursing the car home some 70 to 80 kilometers
from Oran Park and doing a valve adjustment on the way I wore the head off both lifters on the 1/3 inlets. Luckily I run an oil screen and a remote
cooler. I'm going to replace the pump and bearings which will still work out cheaper than a two truck.
My lifter bores look fine.
CYA CT
esratrams
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BiX
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 01:39 PM |
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My engine specs are pretty boring compared to most of these, but I will put them up anyway.
Std case
Std crank, balanced
Std reworked rods
90.5mm P and C's
lightened flywheel, 8 dowel
Std 1600 TP heads,well ported and polished
Std valves and 3 angle grind
Engle w100 cam
std ratio rockers, but converted shafts
heavy duty single springs
cromoly pushrods
30mm oil pump
009
NGk iridium plugs
Twin 40mm Dells (not sur eon vents)
1.5inch empi extractors and 2 inch custom exhaust
its a very sweet engine and rev's to 5900, though power is strong between 2500 and 5000 with torque from 1500 to 4900 rpm. it will crawl along at
idle in 1st with 205/60r15 tires. it was built as a motokhana engine and warm street engine but has held its own against much more power escorts extra
on sprints, hillcimb etc. Only problems were
1. Over rev @ qld raceway, 8500RPM and bent a valve
2. from over revved, we think its s damaged cam bearing but its lasted 4 more years of track work and is only starting to die now.
new engine
78 stroke, destroked to 77.7mm
90.5 P and C's
044 head with mild port and polish and SS valves
new mag case
Twin 40mm carbs
engle 130 or maybe k8 cam with rockers to suit
other specs to be decided
designed for rally, sprints, hillcimb and only on club rego. so street drivability not as important though ebing for rally a good torque engine is a
good option.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 06:17 PM |
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ok ill post what ive got and id like to hear peoples camshaft reccomendations. Engine is being built on a very tight budget with some street but a lot
of drag racing in mind. The curve ball here will be that i want to use a lot of nitrous as well.
So far we have....
Welded 78 stroker
Reworked stock rods, might upgrade to some h beams depending on budget.
Cima/mahle 94's
O40 heads with 44 by 37.5 valves. Nice exhaust ports, intake nicely ported but too small for big hp, not welded etc.
Nothing too exotic. This is a strictly low $$$ project
I want 11 sec passes out of this car which will be 1500, minor lightening like bumpers and seats removed. Gearbox will be built for the task, dont
know ratios yet. Ill probably build the motor and dyno it before i work out some appopriate ratios.
So what camshaft for this baby? im planning on over 100hp of gas so i want to optimise it for that. Comp will be set low so i can use more Nitrous, id
guess well under 8.5, probably high 7's.
So what are the suggestions?
testing 1 2 3...
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TICK
A.k.a.: Luke Pell
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:08 PM |
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mines in the members ride section under "engine build up". going for the longevity with a 1776. pretty extreme (for street) port with a relatively
small cam amd ratio rockers to try and retain some bottom end.
as21 case- they always did the job before the aluminiums, modified washers to extend life
69mm crank by bergs-as good as you can get!
worked vw rods- no need for any more with small crank
90.5 p&b- best cooling and longevity total seal second ring, wrist pin keepers 'cause thats all you need with a sraight crank!
040 heads 40mm & 37.5 stainless port/polish leaving guide bosses to keep airspeed and tourque/bottom end
dual springs,properly shimmed, keepers gapped to stop valve groove chaffing
1.4 rockers- more lift at valves instead of cam accelerating and shutting them at warp speeds
G.B 309/engle v-26 297 duration .335 lift at cam 1000-5500 rpm more with port work done-designed for ratio rockers
mahle lifters by berg-same metalurgy, and rockwell, heat treat as factory-machined under head to clear lifter bores (rather than mchn case) groove
between oil rings as ratio rockers can cause missalighnment in lifter bore with oil holes
magnum straight cut gears-to avoid side loading caused by helicals thus dual thrust bearing life extension
6 1/2 pound pulley and 12 1/2 pound flywheel-for even balance/harmonics on both ends of crank
48mm delortos- 36mm venturis 155 mains 70 idles (to start with)berg ball style needle &seat (loads of flow with lil float travel) on matched
manifolds
custom electronic ignition 009
good breathing system with box, vented rockers (at top) and return lines from bottom of rocker covers to deep sump!-no oil starvation thankyou!
yet to work out compression, but will be whatever 98octane can support
they're the main ingredients and why i chose 'em mentioned in this thread, the usual cooling,1 5/8 headers, extra mounts, push rods, studs etc
will let you know how the combo works in a couple of months.
[ Edited on 18-10-2005 by dumone2 ]
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jvl054
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shiftyvw
ok ill post what ive got and id like to hear peoples camshaft reccomendations. Engine is being built on a very tight budget with some street but a lot
of drag racing in mind. The curve ball here will be that i want to use a lot of nitrous as well.
So far we have....
Welded 78 stroker
Reworked stock rods, might upgrade to some h beams depending on budget.
Cima/mahle 94's
O40 heads with 44 by 37.5 valves. Nice exhaust ports, intake nicely ported but too small for big hp, not welded etc.
Nothing too exotic. This is a strictly low $$$ project
I want 11 sec passes out of this car which will be 1500, minor lightening like bumpers and seats removed. Gearbox will be built for the task, dont
know ratios yet. Ill probably build the motor and dyno it before i work out some appopriate ratios.
So what camshaft for this baby? im planning on over 100hp of gas so i want to optimise it for that. Comp will be set low so i can use more Nitrous, id
guess well under 8.5, probably high 7's.
So what are the suggestions?
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Hi shifty,Teflon coat the standard rods and valve stems$$$$ saved...Cam Bugpack 4063??????JVLRacing
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:43 PM |
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teflon coating? how does that save $$$$$??? whats the specs on a 4063?
testing 1 2 3...
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jvl054
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shiftyvw
teflon coating? how does that save $$$$$??? whats the specs on a 4063?
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Bent,snap rods Telfon coating strenghtens (using nitrious)Cam296 dur 268lift.JVLRacing
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 09:12 PM |
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I thought teflon coating was more for flow properties? ill look into it. I was thinking a lot bigger on the cam than that.
testing 1 2 3...
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TICK
A.k.a.: Luke Pell
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 09:35 PM |
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hey shifty, 44mm inlets in 040's is on the limit, i thought anything over 40 required the relocation of the plug holes...p.s you got u2u
[ Edited on 18-10-2005 by dumone2 ]
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AdrianH
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 04:30 AM |
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Shifty, a friend of mine in canada had a berg 1800 - 74 x 88 - running IDAs and a 50 shot that got him consistently into the mid 12s. K8 cam, 40 x
37.5 berg heads, 1.4:1 rockers. Launch at 8k and hang on. Be prepared to throw some $$ at a good fuel system. PM me and Ill put you in touch with him.
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 09:13 AM |
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I like he sound of that Bugpack 4063 cam with 1.25:1 lifters. Bugpack also make matching lightweight racing lifters. Although the lightweight racing
lifter bit is probably BS at least they say the lifters are designed for the cam and the hardness is compatible.
Who has dynoed their engine?
What numbers did you make with your combo?
What did you do to improve the numbers?
CYA CT
esratrams
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VDubya
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 12:26 PM |
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What a difference a week makes.
First something is pretty meaningless.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
I don't believe totally in dyno numbers.
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Then it becomes relevant?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Who has dynoed their engine?
What numbers did you make with your combo?
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I was going to join the Democrats to keep the bastards honest, but joined the forum instead.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 01:02 PM |
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why do you always have to pop up and stir shit just when the thread gets back on track ?
god, you have to be about the least relevant bloke on this forum....
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VDubya
Seriously Crusin Dubber
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 01:27 PM |
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Thanks for the encouragement.
| Quote: |
you have to be the only relevant bloke on this forum....
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Thanks for the compliment.
See moderators aren't the only ones who can change what people say!
I was going to join the Democrats to keep the bastards honest, but joined the forum instead.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 01:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDubya
Thanks for the encouragement.
| Quote: |
you have to be the least relevant bloke on this forum....
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Thanks for the compliment.
See moderators aren't the only ones who can change what people say about me,the idiot!
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Can we leave this thread to relevant discussion about VW's.Take it to BA if you're old enough.
[ Edited on 21-10-05 by Mick H ]
[ Edited on 21-10-05 by Mick H ]
tssnq.com.au
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5901
Threads: 178
Registered: January 6th, 2005
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Location: Gold Coast
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Mood: 591
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 07:20 PM |
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Nitrous cams generally use wide lobe centres like 112 or greater.
They also like larger exhaust flow.
Get a copy of David Vizard's Chevy cam book to dream up a cam and have one custom ground....it's very good for cam advice.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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VDubya
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 103
Threads: 4
Registered: September 23rd, 2005
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 08:46 PM |
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OK lets keep it relevent, if and engine can rev to 6700 or 8000 rpms but through dyno testing stops making power at 5800 whats the point in stressing
out the engine and breaking it, especially when you can spend 30k plus on building a serious engine.
Look at Dave Beckers awsome peice of machinery, its producing over 135 hp but can't be driven on the street for very long I've heard as it gets
pretty hot.
And hey Shifty good luck on the 11"s with that combo, you might want to talk to the Smith brothers on your engine components and the nitrous, because
without the nitous it would be lucky to make a 100hp. But as you have all assumed I'm full of $hit as dasdubber put it,
or am I?...
I was going to join the Democrats to keep the bastards honest, but joined the forum instead.
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