| [ Total Views: 2346 | Total Replies: 58 | Thread Id: 45183 ] |
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 Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 08:27 AM |
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Dave, I love your supercharged drag car. I have seen it many times over the years, and it's always been my favourite. I love the sound, I love the
way it leaps away from the line in a seemingly effortless way. It's a car that legends are made of.
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 helbus
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 08:51 AM |
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A turbo car could probably beat my supercharged 202 in my EH, but I tell you what it is a whole lot of fun being able to go in a burnout comp and sit
in top gear with the motor only doing 3000rpm. The torque is great. It actually feels like the 202 cubic inch motor has been replaced with something
in the size of 308ci In a way I suppose that is what the supercharger does. It continually pumps air in at a higher ratio than the motor could
naturally aspirate.
Anyway its my car and I like it and that is what counts. I don't think there is an actual debate required 
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Che Castro
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 09:20 AM |
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I thought lysholm superchargers approached the efficiency of a turbocharger/centrifugal but did it right across the rev range?
Jon
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Secoh
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 11:39 AM |
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miller cycle supercharging is an entirely different kettle of fish. The supercharger is not there to make above atmosphere boost per se. Miller
Cycle recognises the difference between static and dynamic compression ratios. The inlet valve is held open as the piston is coming back up for the
compression stroke. So in theory the charge gas is being forced back through the inlet. This gives a very low static compression ratio and takes
much less energy to bring it to TDC on the compression stroke.
To compenaste for the gas charge trying to be forced back out the inlet, the supercharger is used to push it back in again, thus giving the high
dynamic compression ratio that the motor needs to fire. At the end of the day it is there to increase fuel efficiency, though additional torque and
the ability to boost it some more is a pleasant side effect.
If it aint broke,
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Boozer
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 04:06 PM |
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personally i like superchargers better, and have you guy's seen this?
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/default.asp
THe MC Bat Commander's motto: "Never do now, what you could do for 24 hours straight, all night, the night before."
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 06:47 PM |
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Top fuellers are irrelevant to any turbo vs blower argument. They HAVE to run a roots supercharger and not the most efficient (high Helix) ones
either. Presently nothing beats blown moters on the setp of the throttle.
testing 1 2 3...
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tassupervee
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 07:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Che Castro
I thought lysholm superchargers approached the efficiency of a turbocharger/centrifugal but did it right across the rev range?
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To a point yes but where the turbocharger gains (efficiency) is it works as an "energy recovery" device.
A turbocharger extract and turns exhaust heat into energy to help turn the turbine where it would otherwise be lost out the zorst pipe.
A well matched and set up turbo results in surprisingly low pumping losses (zorst manifold pressure)
A blower provides positive boost pressure but at the cost o9f horsepower that would otherwise go to the wheels, with no energy recovery from the hot
zorst gas.
So pound for pound boost pressure, the turbocharger "should" result in a more efficient setup.
However, for drag racing, instant torque is paramount and in bigger arsed engines, the liability of lost power driving the blower is a far lesser evil
than turbo boost lag.
Some serious turbo straightliners cunningly get around this lag issue with a decent shot of nitrous oxide off boost for instant power and then
reverting to turbo boost pressure alone once the turbo spools.
Yeeehar!
Its just horses for courses.
Turbochargers are significantly more compact and lightweight against an equivalent capacity blower and are easy to mount in just about any position
that gives you a stiffy whereas the larger, clumsy blower must be attached onto an engine in such a fashion as to be inline with pulleys and such.
This can be quite a bother when allowing for other engine ancilliaries that are belt driven.
FWIW, having done a custom installation in my old Ford capri and currently owning 2 turbo cars, I personally love the shreik and whistle of spooling
turbos followed by a "pssshht" on gearchange against the constant sort of mechanical whine of a blower.
However, the in-your-face instant kind of stomp of the blown engine is hard to pass!
For all intents and purposes, for a streetable car, the choice is largely "pay your money and take your choice"
Happy blow jobs.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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bajachris88
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 07:48 PM |
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hehe. This is going mad. ALot of good info, keep it rolling
Great clean debate without people going off their rockers for others with different opinions, great peaceful rebuttals, nice job. This is avd, great
to have an interesting informative talk 
Anyone ever think of having both a turbo on the exhaust and a supercharger on the one engine? Be possible? You would need some serious reinforcement
on the engine components though with that kind of boost. Never have heard it being done before, therefore chances are its probably a stupid idea.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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tassupervee
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 08:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mynameischris88
Anyone ever think of having both a turbo on the exhaust and a supercharger on the one engine? Be possible? You would need some serious reinforcement
on the engine components though with that kind of boost. Never have heard it being done before, therefore chances are its probably a stupid idea.
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No, not silly at all and works very well. A pretty old idea now.
Toyota did one years ago, based on what looks like an 18RG or a 2T (Celica Twin Cam) with a complicated plumbing setup where the supercharger
delivered the boost from low down and when the large turbo spooled up, the blower was disconnected via a clutch similar to a magnetic clutch on an A/C
compressor.
I never did see how the plumbing was switched and valved but it looked like a freakin snake pit with all these tubes running all over the engine.
A serious looking bit of kit however!
Turboing over supercharging has been done for many years on Detroit "92" TTA series 2 stroke truck and marine deisels.
The supercharger with blow its set boost pressure from ambient but when the turbo gets spooling, the blower will deliver base boost pressure ratio +
turbo boost pressure.
A M8 of mine down here in Tassie is currently developing just such a beast of an engine.
Its a Ford Pinto 2.3 litre. Looks identical to a 2 litre Ford Escort/Cortina engine.
He has got a big arsed turbo off something feeding a roots type supercharger. Programmeable EFI and some serious engineering and money unloaded into
the thing.
He is a machinist by trade and a very handy fabricator.
The one off billet steel roller camshaft is just one of the bits of pricey trickery that litters this project!
The 20mm thick big end bearing stud girdle is very serious and something to behold!
I have seen the initial build of the engine but it has not fired a shot in anger just yet.
Itseventually going into a heavily modified Mk 2 Ford Escort and it (engine) looks simply awesome in the flesh.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 11:02 PM |
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I think the most successful use of the turbo and supercharger combination was the Lancia Delta S4 rally cars. It was rumoured to have between 500 and
600HP I think, and was insanely fast. Unfortunately it was too fast and when it did eventually crash the occupants were incinerated and group B rally
cars were banned due to safety concerns.
The most recent use of turbo and superchargers successfully is probably the Bandag Bullet (worlds fastest Truck!). Of course it is fitted with two V8
diesels, two superchargers and four turbochargers.
As the saying goes...
Turbos are nice, but I'd rather be blown.
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plough
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| posted on October 29th, 2005 at 11:11 PM |
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Bill Oakey,grandfather of Aussie Top alcohol Drag Racer Dean oakey, built a quad turboed/supercharged Keith Black Hemi 20 or so years ago.He couldn't
keep the turbos together, on the step of the throttle the turbos couldn't cope with the amount/force of the exhaust. An experienced Top Fuel driver
at the time said it had as much hp as the Fuel motors of the time but from memory never finished a quarter mile. He did have some success with a twin
supercharged engine i.e. the first blower compresssing into the second and then to the engine. Wouldn't be legal now .
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boof2332
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| posted on October 30th, 2005 at 09:17 AM |
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Go to the shoptalkforums and read the 40+ pages on the same debate...pretty informative.
I have a vf24 ballbearing turbo they used to use on group N rally cars. Makes power from 2600-6500 and has minimal lag.
Why not run both...or what I am going to have on the 914....NOS spooling up a massive turbo.
Mercedes are getting rid of there blowers in preference to turbo's...like the new E65 twin turbo which is limited to 1000nm of torque...and makes it
at 1800rpm or some ridiculously low rpm.
With water injection...just have an injector somewhere on the inlet manifold so there is less time for it to condense and get the one that has a MAP
sensor and is regulated accordingly.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on October 30th, 2005 at 04:13 PM |
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Couple of pages of mostly waffle and a few smart replies. No one has yet asked for the original poster to refine the question.
What is best: blown or turboed? The question needs to say for what specific purpose.
There are times when the turbo will be best - most of those reasons have been reasonably well stated. Other situations will see the blower by far the
best and a turbo could never ever compete. Take a car competing in super gas for example.
A blown car will get off the line make its run and then allow the driver to on and off keeping the torque and instant power just under the right foot
to keep under the time but still beat the other to the line which is still running at WOT.
When the question is better framed the debate might be more informative.
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jvl054
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| posted on October 30th, 2005 at 04:45 PM |
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Fiction or Fact.....most Turbo cars only rely on the turbo itself with standard bottom ends to produce hps.....most Blown cars rely on a stronger
bottom end to run the blower to its potential......JVLRacing???????
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 31st, 2005 at 03:57 PM |
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i cant even think of the last time i saw a blown super gas car? You dont need a blower to go 9.90!
testing 1 2 3...
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on October 31st, 2005 at 04:15 PM |
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Faster cars that have to run in gas from time to time that have blowers use it to full advantage because they can on and off in the last quarter of
the track. Forcing the other car to run under the index to "apparently" catch up and then run under the index.
It's all academic because the question still hasn't been posed - what is better for what purpose?
[ Edited on 31-10-2005 by HotRodMatt ]
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2443TT
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| posted on November 3rd, 2005 at 09:41 PM |
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I'd gladly go with a turbo every time. With the advent of electronic boost controllers, launch control, staged boost, anti-lag, twin port wastegates
and hybrid turbo configurations there isn't much you can't acomplish with a well designed turbo setup these days.
Look at superchargers. Their major breakthru's in technology in the past few years are basically just improving tolerances and there's also been
the development of centrivical superchargers that use turbo style compressors because they recognise the efficency that can be gained. Other than
that superchargers have the same issues they've had for years. High air temps (except with capa's new intercooled v8 manifold setup) are a serious
issue. An 8/71 on a 493ci I was looking at in darwin when visiting with reub ran air intake temps in the area of 100-105 degrees C at 8lb boost which
is frankly insane.
Putting asside air temps the thing people mostly complain about huge power turbo setup's is that although they can have massive top end they also
have a lot of lag at low engine speed and as a result low torque. Anti-lag is a partial solution but seriously who can use that from light to light
driving in traffic.
Enter the idea of hybrid turbo's. Basically by running a small turbine housing to get shaft speeds going at low RPM and a large compressor to
achieve the required air flow for big boost and HP at high rpm's. Early hybrid setups were plagued with issues of boost surging and overboost due to
poor boost control. The diaphram based wastegates just couldn't anticipate what was going to happen at certain engine speeds so spikes and eratic
power figures were a big problem.
Also, when using a small turbine the exhaust back pressures would get very high at high rpm. Eg: Boost pressure = 25lb, exhaust back pressure = 50lb.
This back pressure would reduce the efficency of the engines ability to draw in fuel(even with boost) because when old die-hard hot rodders turbo'd
engines they'd choose a cam with big overlap. The exhaust pressure would force intake charge back up the intake till the pressure equalised, then
when the exhaust finally closed the engine could actually intake some fuel. This scenario would cause a huge power fall-off at higher boost levels.
The big back pressures would also cause the wastegates to open before full boost could be achieved, because wastegate spring pressure would be being
exceeded by exhaust back pressure.
Now thanks to those clever japanese guys the use of electronic boost controllers, twin port wastegates and well designed camshaft profiles hybrids can
provide wide torque bands with huge top end power as well, and without anti-lag.
To sort out the cam issue, they close the exhaust valve before the intake opens. This allows exhaust pressures to be higher than the intake pressure
with no adverse side-effects. Cam overlap was only used in naturally aspirated and supercharged engines to allow the momentum of exhaust via
EXTRACTORS to extract (scavenge) exhaust and help pull in the intake charge. Not needed anymore with boost forcing its way into the engine
anymore...
The twin port wastegate control via an electronic boost controller gets around the back pressure wastegate creep problem and the boost surging. Twin
port control allows intake pressure to re-inforce the wastegate spring in holding the wastegate shut, then at programmed boost level the gate will be
opened by a frequency pulsed solenoid. Most decent boost controllers LEARN your engines boost profile and get better the more you drive them so they
eliminate overboost completely.
Well there's my 2 cents! Sure we are all into old air-cooled vw's but I'm a big believer in using as all the new performance ideas to maximise the
potential of my car. There is no denying what a well engineered ricer car can do with some decent bolt on's.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 4th, 2005 at 12:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by iswinkels
An 8/71 on a 493ci I was looking at in darwin when visiting with reub ran air intake temps in the area of 100-105 degrees C at 8lb boost which is
frankly insane.
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That example is an old roots style supercharger with no intercooler. They are very inefficient set-ups, but look cool.
Let's face it, if someone is going to supercharge a vw motor they will probably use something like a an SC12 from a 4agze or an SC14 from a 1GGZE
because they can be found very cheap from jap import shops. They are roots style but have coated lobes (teflon of some kind?) which helps with the
efficiency a little. The main difference is they are normally set-up to use an intercooler. They also have electromagnetic clutches to allow you to
turn the supercharger on and off.
Then if you have a little more money you'd go for an Eaton supercharger. These are roots style as well, but have helical lobes which really makes
them operate more like a screw supercharger. So they are quite a bit more efficient than your old skool BM supercharger. They can also easily be
set-up with an intercooler.
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2443TT
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| posted on November 4th, 2005 at 01:21 PM |
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All forced induction systems SHOULD be intercooled for reliability and improved performance. Regardless of whether its supercharged or turbo'd.
Some turbo setups without intercoolers reach simular air temps as the 8/71, but with a well designed intercooler with sufficent cooling area its
possible to get air temps as low as ambient air temps while on boost, and even lower if you run water spray, or CO2 or NOS intercooler spray.
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amazeer
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| posted on December 8th, 2005 at 07:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
I guess it all depends on your definition of reliable. I seem to remember sitting at one particular Valla (2003) watching Amazer try to rebuild his
dead turbo type 4 engine at his campsite. Not surprisingly the exhaust ports had failed on both heads. So I guess reliable is a relative term
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Awww wes, you are so cruel. That engine was a dud I have to admit. But it was also thrown in with the $900 purchase price of the kombi. The head swere
probably already cracked and the turbo just plasma cut through them. The one before that which was properly built with 3 times the horsepower lived a
lot healthier life. Although it too has cracked heads, the reason it was euthenased was the gritty metal bits in the sump and because I could no
longer afford the gearboxes (still havent paid for #2)
As to the best compressor.... I'm thinking my next fast car wont have either. Things with Honda badges are appearing enticing. *reaches for the soap*
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71superbug
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| posted on December 8th, 2005 at 07:52 PM |
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i cant give such a technical view. but i think i can agree with the statement that both can be equally as good.
Rotarys for example rely a lot on the torque that a turbo provides to get them as fast as they go. and they go pretty damn fast for a 1.3 litre. and
can make quite hgih power.
also a mate has a 57 chev that has a supercharged 454 in it. he is making 842rwhp without the nitrous setp installed yet. and on a street tune. he
says he has no problems at all with it and is VERY happy with what he has got.
although he has built his car mainly for burnouts.
so i think both can be used to full advantage depending on what you are building the car for.
Anthony
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DIY-DUB
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| posted on December 9th, 2005 at 11:39 AM |
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Blower!
problem sloved!
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DIY-DUB
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| posted on December 9th, 2005 at 11:41 AM |
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...
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bajachris88
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| posted on December 9th, 2005 at 12:41 PM |
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lol, u serious? 
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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dangerous
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| posted on December 11th, 2005 at 01:45 PM |
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Good for de-icing your carb in cold climates.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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jonno-t3
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| posted on December 11th, 2005 at 04:31 PM |
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this thread was interestingto read as i am currently in the process of re-restoring my type three and i was teetering on that wal of whether to go
super or turbo. my plan was to go off an alloy block, with serious bore and stroke, nasty ass cam....that type where the car won't idle and then i
was gonna stick an older style roots type super on top with a custom intake of sum sort.
my only problem is that i have been told that both turbo and super suck under natural aspiration and work better with injection. is this true? and if
so, whats a custom efi system worth to set up?
jonno
"if only everything in life was made like a volkswagen"
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71superbug
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| posted on December 12th, 2005 at 01:18 AM |
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its not that they SUCK under the hood of a carby fed car. many people still use carby s for turbos. would just drive smoother .etc with turbo.
Anthony
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shiftyvw
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| posted on December 12th, 2005 at 04:19 PM |
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a supercharged setup should work quite well in draw through carb mode, as the supercharger doesnt separate the fuel mixture like a turbo does.
testing 1 2 3...
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amazeer
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| posted on December 13th, 2005 at 10:57 AM |
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Do you want induction sounds or turbo whistles? That is the question.
With a type 3 or 4 engine turbo it is far more easy to use the standard efi manifolds and throttle body and throw on a programmable efi system. If you
go the quad throttle route then there is going to be a lot more pipework involved and harder to keep neat. You could also build your nasty cam na
engine and still have it idle with efi.
For all efi it will cost more bucks with the hi pressure fuel pump, regulator, return lines. I'm guessing that throttle bodies would cost roughly the
same as carbs. Installation I found to be easy, but keeping it neat with the extra wiring and hoses is a problem. I wanted something that appeared as
though it came from factory but failed rather miserably once the EFI system went on... and then gave up trying.
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