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 ratty 63
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| posted on January 5th, 2006 at 09:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 76bug
ever concidered using a michrotech? much the same price and a very simple and effective unit
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Yep, but they didn't do half of what the Delco can. I have an old Microtec that I was given by a friend - it needs repairs but once this is done I
will set it up on a dummy engine and see what it can do.
I spent months looking at the different ECUs, but when I saw a Delco/Kalmaker system in use in a friends car, there was no comparison. I also saw
vehicles fitted with Microtecs, Wolfs, and a couple of others....although I feel that some of them wern't set up correctly, some of them didn't
drive very well at all!
R 
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76bug
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| posted on January 6th, 2006 at 08:03 AM |
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so wot can the Delco/Kalmaker system do?
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MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 09:22 PM |
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Everything but boil water but well leave that to the subies trying to keep up:P
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
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Brad
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 09:41 PM |
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mmm
| Quote: | Originally
posted by MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Everything but boil water but well leave that to the subies trying to keep up:P
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So how was the beach Tim ?? Must have missed your VW EFI powered Baja there .. hope it is going in time for my next back yard bash .. I need some cars
to fill in the ditches all these subie powered offroaders are digging ....:kiss
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subibaja
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 09:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 76bug
so wot can the Delco/Kalmaker system do?
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NOT give your baja the ability to get up hills
and
DO give the ability to get your baja bogged everywhere
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
terry
anyone who says it's bad to put subaru motors in vw's.....
hasnt got a clue about smoooooooooth
terry
brisbane
0403252522
you know who i am
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MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 08:28 PM |
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| Quote: | So how was the beach
Tim ?? Must have missed your VW EFI powered Baja there .. hope it is going in time for my next back yard bash .. I need some cars to fill in the
ditches all these subie powered offroaders are digging ....:kiss
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yeah that would be like me when i was there last year and me missing the mega manx thats taken how long to build its up to 8 years now and its now
where do you know? and as for digging holes yeah that might be all there good for they never get anywhere unlike a aircooled manx that got up the hill
which has stopped every water boiler that has TRYED it before it to bad that one didn't make it to the fourm on film
gees im a prick but a funny one
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
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MUD BASHING ANYONE ??
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 08:35 PM |
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| Quote: | NOT give your baja
the ability to get up hills
and
DO give the ability to get your baja bogged everywhere
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
terry
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thats funny dave tells a different story that thermo fan must be rooted by now hay it was always on and a quote i heard from bazz oh just wait a
minute i have to turn it off its to hot gees guys sign me up for one of those great engines i would love to have one ha ha ha ha
You only need two tools
Wd40 if it don't move and it should
Duct tape if it move's and it shouldn't
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Brad
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 10:06 PM |
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mmmm
| Quote: |
the hill which has stopped every water boiler that has TRYED it before it to bad that one didn't make it to the fourm on film
gees im a prick but a funny one
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So where is this hill ?
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 12:27 PM |
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Now I know that you guys are just trying to stir each other up - I have heard both sides of the story and it sounds like everyone had problems getting
bogged...not that that has anything to do with EFI.... so perhaps if you wish to 'discuss' this Subi Vs VW topic, you should start your own thread
(where those who care can go to hear the facts ) rather than take
over an unrelated thread?
I haven't had a chance to have a close look at Daves EFI system since he got back, we have both been rather busy. I do know that Dave has lashed out
and fitted a full set of new tyres to the Baja (are you surprised?). I have worked out why it is still stalling occasionally (my fault for not tuning
the entire deceleration enrichment map - only the part above 900RPM - I can explain further if anyone is interested). Dave also tells me that it is
allowing unburnt fuel into the exhaust when he backs off from high revs, which then ignites with a large flame out the tailpipe... I'm not yet sure
why its doing this, but Dave suggested we leave it like this for a while as its great for scaring other motorists that drive a little too close to the
back of the car....
I will try to get a few more pics and hopefully spend some time fixing up the minor tuning issues over the next couple of days.... I'll post the
results.
R
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Midlife crisis
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 12:32 PM |
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Hi Ross
Yep keep the details coming it is a great read.
Marc
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 12:38 PM |
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Yep good read as always ross - you want to be careful or you might end up running a wiring loom modification and Delco tuning business
Any motor that is still air cooled and can leave black marks on the road whilst wearing 31x10.5R15's is making some serious torque. So I am impressed
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76bug
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| posted on January 11th, 2006 at 01:49 PM |
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is the delco a 32bit computer?
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 16th, 2006 at 05:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 76bug
is the delco a 32bit computer?
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Nope. Unless you have everything in the car controlled by the ECU I can't imagine why you would need 32 bits...? Have a look at the Delco/Kalmaker
web site for all the info on the ECU and software that I am using: www.kalmaker.com.au
Update:
I went for a drive with Dave the other day, just to get some idea of what was happening when the engine was returning to idle... It's a fairly simple
issue that is (basically) being caused by the fact that we are not using a Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) at this time - we will be installing one in the
future.... I'll try to keep this explanation as simple as possible....:
As an EFI vehicle idles, the ECU monitors the engine speed and makes changes to the IAC (Idle Air Control - controls the amount of air that bypasses
the throttle plate) to keep the engine as close as possible to the requested idle speed. This part works great on the system that we currently
have.
However, to enter a idle, a number of situations must be met: The throttle plate must be closed, the engine must be below 1500RPM and the vehicle must
be stationary - now without a VSS, the ECU can't tell if the vehicle is stationary or moving, so it assumes that it is stationary...and this is where
the problem begins.
If you decelerate back to below 1500RPM, with the car in gear and the clutch out the ECU assumes that the car is coming back to an idle. It trys to
bring the idle speed down to the preset idle speed (900RPM in this case) as quickly as possible by reducing the amount of air bypassing the throttle
plate through the IAC. The IAC is a stepper motor - the less steps that it is open, the less air that get through. Now if you are decelerating in
3rd gear, it will take, say, 15 seconds to reduce your speed enough to get from 1500RPM to 900RPM - by this time, the IAC has wound back to 0 steps
(completely closed) as it trys to control the idle (this only takes about 2 seconds). If you then push the clutch in with the IAC at 0 steps, the
engine has no air, and no 'force' from the gearbox to keep it moving, so it stalls. Unfortunatly the IAC wont react fast enough to catch the stall
at that lower rev range.
Of course, if we fit a VSS, the ECU will know that the car is still moving, and will not try to return to an idle, therefore having no effect on the
IAC steps...instead it will try to hold the revs at about 1500 RPM, assuming that you will either want to accelerate, or you are about to push the
clutch in, but either way, it won't stall.
So, after all that, it would appear that we will have to fit a VSS - which we were going to do anyway.
It has been suggested that I open the throttle stop just slightly so that when the IAC is at 0 steps, the car will still idle (albeit just!) - this is
a quick and bodgy fix, but it might just work until the VSS comes along.
As for the flames coming out the exhaust when backing off at high revs, I am fairly certain that that is being caused by their being too much
deceleration enrichment (like an accelerator pump, but used when decelearting - stops popping/burbling in the exhaust when set right). I will be
catching up with Dave tonight and will back the Decel enrich. off and see what happens - the flames do look cool at night though...you wouldn't want
to get too close to the back of the car! :duh
I am also planning on reducing the amount of ignition advance in the lower throttle and RPM ranges to make acceleration at lower throttle setting less
jumpy.
I'm having a ball with this system! I'll let you know how I go with this next batch of fine adjustments....
R
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ratty 63
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 posted on January 16th, 2006 at 06:20 PM |
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pics...
Ok Volks,
Just found a few more pics for those interested....
...its very hard to take pics of this engine as Dave has a spare wheel carrier mounted over the engine (attached to the engine cage) but here you
go...
R
Pic 1: Modified manifold (passenger side of vehicle) - you can also see the electrical components board that we mounted the coil, MAP sensor, relays
and fuses on.
Pic 2: another shot of the top of the manifold - the electrical connector in the top of the plenum is the Intake Air Temp sensor - this is mounted
where the cold start injector was in the factory system.
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76bug
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 07:52 AM |
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a 32bit computer just gives u a better resolution i.e. wen u are setting up ur matrix map u will have a map that is 32x32 end result more rpm vs fuel
point to tune.
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 09:54 AM |
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really?
My VE map is 9 x 15 = 135 load points (with the rev limit set to 5500RPM - add another 9 points to the map for every 400RPM)...
...thats more than enough load points for most vehicles, after all, the ECU that I am using is the same ECU found in many of the GM produced vehicles
- and they appear to drive OK....
Update:
Spent another hour roaring around the neighbourhood late last night and learn a few things:
1. Don't try sitting in the passenger seat of my Brothers Baja and staring at a laptop screen whilst tuning for WOT in the dark after eating a roast
and a large lump of mudcake :puke
2. The autotune feature of the Kalmaker/Delco system only works when the 'coolant' temp (or head temp in this case) is between the upper and lower
pre-set limits, therefore if you are going to change the way the coolant temp sender reads by inserting a resistor, make certain that it is still
within range - the resistor that I used dropped the reading to below the pre-set limits and therefore it would only autotune when the CHT was in the
'hotter than normal' range....D'oh. Thankfully, like everything else on this system, I can change the pre-set autotune levels so thats not a major
problem.
3. Not only was the deceleration enrichment too much, but the acceleration enrichment was not enough - particularly at higher revs - causing a rather
unenthusiastic response when the throttle was opened further at high revs (like on the freeway) - this too was adjusted.
4 And finally, Daves engine likes to run rich at an idle (as to most engines) - leaning it out at an idle, even slightly made it run run like a
pig!
We are still yet to try the throttle stop adjustment to see if we can fix the stall at an idle... I'll keep you informed.
R
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76bug
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 10:42 AM |
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i had a look at the website, seems like a great idea if u own a comodore as u dont have to change the computer, same concept as ECUTEK which i have
played around with, as far as installing this system on a vw i think it is a little bulky.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 10:52 AM |
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Thsi is agood read Ratty and will be useful to me when I Foinally get around to installing my $80 Camira system on my Bug
Yes, VSS input and idle anticipation is CRITICAL to the drivability of the Delco/Holden PCM for the reasons you explained very well. I learnt that the
hard way with a couple of Holden V6 and V8 conversions, and a transplant onto a Ford EFI V8, I was involved with.
You may want to drill a small hole (start with say, 3mm - I think the HSV had 8mm) in the thottle blade to assist the idle - HSV did this on the 200kW
SV5000/VP GTS versions of the 5.0 in the late 80s/early 90s. Cranking open the throttle will upset the TPS... which will give you another set of
dramas!!
Pay your debts, CxxT
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56astro
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 02:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Thsi is agood read Ratty and will be useful to me when I Foinally get around to installing my $80 Camira system on my Bug
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Will it fire 8 plugs??
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 02:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Thsi is agood read Ratty and will be useful to me when I Foinally get around to installing my $80 Camira system on my Bug
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Will it fire 8 plugs??
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Won't need to at first as I only intend to do a single TB conversion on my base 1916.
BUT I can see no problem with running one of Stans dissys fitted with the guts of the Camira distributor to splice the Delco to operate in team with 8
plugs. Or maybe use double-ended wasted-spark like the V6 configged with an crank angle sensor, and an ignition map yadda yadda from a 304 V8 to run
another coil pack... Maybe?? That's a bit beyond my experiecne but I reckon it's possible...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 17th, 2006 at 06:01 PM |
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Give Injection Connection an email on Injection Connection [tpiconn@space.net.au] (Alan Gibbs). He knows everything there is to know about Delco /
Kalmaker.
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on January 19th, 2006 at 11:15 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Will it fire 8 plugs??
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I agree with VWCOOL - there is no reason why it couldn't - the Delco only tells the coil (or coils) when to fire. The ECU doesn't control which
plug(s) are firing at any given time, so fitting one of those dissys that I have seen being used with the dual plug conversions shouldn't be a
problem...or you could get really fancy and go for a multi coilpack set-up....
R
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 19th, 2006 at 11:30 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Thsi is agood read Ratty and will be useful to me when I Foinally get around to installing my $80 Camira system on my Bug
Yes, VSS input and idle anticipation is CRITICAL to the drivability of the Delco/Holden PCM for the reasons you explained very well. I learnt that the
hard way with a couple of Holden V6 and V8 conversions, and a transplant onto a Ford EFI V8, I was involved with.
You may want to drill a small hole (start with say, 3mm - I think the HSV had 8mm) in the thottle blade to assist the idle - HSV did this on the 200kW
SV5000/VP GTS versions of the 5.0 in the late 80s/early 90s. Cranking open the throttle will upset the TPS... which will give you another set of
dramas!!
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Yep - I anticipated some other sort of problem when we played around with the 'at rest' position of the throttle blade, but as it only requires a
screwdriver and some spare time we will still give it a go... just so we know what sort of problems to expect! (If you don't try, you can't learn
) I hadn't thought of drilling a hole in the throttle blade, but it
makes sence.
We are currently chasing prices on VSS's to suit the VW set up - for those who would like to know, a VSS to suit a VW is fitted between the back of
the speedo and the speedo cable and provides the ECU with a set number of electrical pulses per wheel rotation. So far we have come across two
different VSS that will fit the VW speedo. Their specs are different (different number of pulses per rotation), but as I can set the number of
pulses/wheel rev in the ECU software this is not all that important. I am not certain about any other differences (does anyone here have any
experience or knowledge about VSS's? Are they compatable with any ECU?) It would appear that there is not a lot of public knowledge about VSS's -
most people just fit the one they are told to fit and it works. There is a $50 difference between the two models of VSS that we are looking at. The
most info that we can get on either of them is the number of pulses/rotation and that they fit a VW speedo....
R
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56astro
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| posted on January 19th, 2006 at 01:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Will it fire 8 plugs??
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I agree with VWCOOL - there is no reason why it couldn't - the Delco only tells the coil (or coils) when to fire. The ECU doesn't control which
plug(s) are firing at any given time, so fitting one of those dissys that I have seen being used with the dual plug conversions shouldn't be a
problem...or you could get really fancy and go for a multi coilpack set-up....
R
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Ross,
Could you elaborate a bit on this. If you have a crank-fired system and 4 twin-post coil packs (wasted spark - 2x1/3 & 2x2/4) you would need a 4
channel ignition system, right?
If you use an 8-post dizzy, what controls the spark timing?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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56astro
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| posted on January 19th, 2006 at 03:26 PM |
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On the Injection Connection website it states that the Kalmaker software "features complete self tuning in Closed Loop and Open Loop."
This sounds like a huge benefit, especially when you compare it to the price of the Autronic set-up.
Do you know if is a similar system to the Autronic "auto-tune" (saving on hours of dyno time)? Have you used the self-tune feature Ross?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 20th, 2006 at 10:00 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Could you elaborate a bit on this. If you have a crank-fired system and 4 twin-post coil packs (wasted spark - 2x1/3 & 2x2/4) you would need a 4
channel ignition system, right?
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I haven't yet set up my crank fire system, but as I understand it if you were running it with 8 plugs (two per cylinder) you would have to run a 4
channel ignition system.
| Quote: |
If you use an 8-post dizzy, what controls the spark timing?
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The Delco ECU only controls when the spark is fired. The decision as to which cylinder the spark is delivered is left up to the coilpack or
dissy. The easiest way to set up the ignition on an 8 plug engine would be to use the 8-post dissy with an electronic trigger (I'm not all that
familiar with the 8-post dissy - do they use points or some other way of triggering the ignition? I assume that both plugs in one cylinder fire at
the same time - is that correct?).
As I understand it, the electronic trigger sends a reference signal to the ECU at a preset point before the spark is required. The ECU then
calculates how much spark advance is required (dependant on MAP and engine revs (basically)) then works out how long to wait from the reference signal
to the point that the spark is required. Once this time has elapsed, the ECU sends a signal back to the spark controller (either the coil or coil
pack) to fire the ignition.
If you were using a dissy (normal 4-post or 8-post) the spark would be delivered to whichever post on the dissy that the rotor button is pointing to -
exactly the same as a standard dissy.
The coil packs that are used with the Delco ECU have to be able to determine which cylinder to fire (and therefore which 'pack' to fire). This
would be the tricky part of using a coil pack set-up with an 8-plug engine. There is no reason why it couldn't be done - it would just need some
careful thought and planning.
Using multiple coil packs is possible - have a look at the Kalmaker web site - there is a pic and brief description of a V12 Jag that has been
converted to run on a Delco. It uses 2x6 cylinder coil packs (from a Commodore). If they can make something like this run happily, then firing 2
plugs/cylinder on a 4 cylinder should be easy!
If you are interested in using coil packs rather than a dissy, perhaps a question on the Kalmaker forum would be a good place to start your research.
There are heaps of people on there that know a lot more than me about these sorts of conversions! (Alan Gibbs, Frank 'Choco' Munday, etc)
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on January 20th, 2006 at 10:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
On the Injection Connection website it states that the Kalmaker software "features complete self tuning in Closed Loop and Open Loop."
This sounds like a huge benefit, especially when you compare it to the price of the Autronic set-up.
Do you know if is a similar system to the Autronic "auto-tune" (saving on hours of dyno time)? Have you used the self-tune feature Ross?
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We are just starting to use the auto tune feature on my set-up. I would have liked to have used it right from the start (it was our intention)
however an incompatability between the temp sender and the software settings meant that the auto tune function only 'switched on' when the CHT was
higher than normal (ie: not very often).
The auto tune feature required a couple of things to be within range before it will activate. It requires the TPS reading to be stable for a period
of time, the MAP signal to be stable for a period of time, and the engine must be up to operating temp...and that last point is where we had our
issues. Normal operating temp for a water cooled vehicle would be around 80 - 100 deg - normal operating temp for an air cooled cylinder head was (an
indicated) 115 - 130 deg, which would cause the ECU to go into 'overheat damage control' mode (runs super rich and causes the check engine light
come on). Although it is possible to reset the temp ranges using the software, we decided to add a resistor in the wiring between the temp sensor and
the ECU (a decision made due to time restraints). This resistor dropped the indicated temp down to around 60 - 75 deg - which was not hot enough to
trigger the auto tune function.... ooops! :duh
I didn't realise that this was the case until just last week - so I have changed the auto tune temp range to suit the readings that we are getting
from our engine and it is now auto tuning. I have not yet seen any results from the auto tune (haven't seen the car since I switched it on), but I
will let you know how it works soon.
I haven't looked closely at the Autronic system, but I would assume that it would be similar... I do some more research and let you know....
R
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56astro
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| posted on January 20th, 2006 at 11:54 AM |
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:thumb
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on January 20th, 2006 at 02:13 PM |
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I don't know for sure, but I thought the 'cell-map learning' (auto tune) was only introduced in 1993 VR...? so wouldnt apply to teh earlier
Camira/Plusar PCMs. Or is it there (or can it be 'enabled') on the earlier stuff as well?
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 20th, 2006 at 02:59 PM |
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Its there on the early stuff too - all the 808 series ECU's have it (or at least with Kalmaker they do). Ratty mentioned this on his first EFI
thread.
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