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 bajachris88
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 11:03 AM |
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An example of a car cramped with teens, very scary stuff. Dude on the right looks high on something, and funny thing is, its a pic on the front of a
Queensland Government document.
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(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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PrettyBlueBug
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 11:18 AM |
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 12:51 PM |
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another thing that would make one of these alot more practical is insurance companies. did you know that your insurance company does NOT cover you
whilst you are participating in one of these courses, so if something goes wrong you have to pay the repair bill? alot of people cant afford the risk
(even if they cant afford not to take it)
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PrettyBlueBug
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 01:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by baybuscamperkid
another thing that would make one of these alot more practical is insurance companies. did you know that your insurance company does NOT cover you
whilst you are participating in one of these courses, so if something goes wrong you have to pay the repair bill? alot of people cant afford the risk
(even if they cant afford not to take it)
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Was just reading a Shannons insurance brochure thingy yesterday, and they will cover you for doing a driver education course unless
it's run by CAMS.
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tassupervee
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 03:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bugeyedbabe
the problem i think with most of this is: etc. etc. et-al
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Ahh kay, this is a long and thought out response but you need to go back and read my original post on the matter which may have enlightend you a bit
further.
The devils advocate stance here is certainly relevant and entirely understandable, no system is totally foolproof.
But ANY system that is successful to ANY degree is streets ahead of no system yer?
The competency based training system is already in place, has been working well for years.
There is always the spectre of corruption, You cannot get around this fully.
The Stay Upright (motorcycle) training modules are all compentency based.
Basically, in order to pass a particular compentency, you have to demonstrate to the instructor you can do the exercise in the time alloted.
Its very simple and as the exercises are done in a class based environment, its is a little difficult for ther instructor to blantantly allow a
student to pass the compenency in front of 4 or 5 other students when cl;early, he cannot.
Each student undertakes the task individually.
If the student cannot complete the task, which is really black and white where, you either can, or cannot do it, he fails and he/she is invited to
leave the class and come back another day.
Some of the car control suggestions you make are very desireable and important in an advanced driving sense but are considered advanced driving
techniques and not defensive techniques which needs to be the main thrust of PRE-license training. (Note: The emphasis on PRE-license training).
That is basically re-active rather than pro-active in defensive driver education where the focus is on actually how to RECOGNISE and AVOID the
emergency instance in the very first place rather than HOW to actually steer out of a drama with the car in a delicately controlled, tyre smoking and
hair-on-fire tailout sideways slide and so-on!
Things like stopping distances at various speeds, which almost all of my students fail to grasp, braking and avoiding, seating position, steering
wheel technique, where to look on the road etc.
Its often laughable how incorrect seemingly (at first) compentent and experienced drivers underestimte things such as following distances and their
own personal reaction times.
Even the very best of race-car drivers take around half a second or more to even BEGIN braking in an unexpected situation.
Now haw far do you travel at 60KPH in 0.5 of a second?
Remember the ad with the "two identical cars, one travelling 5KPH faster than the other"? The difference in impact with the semi-trailer being a
dented front-end and pride and death?
The amount of drivers that actually believe that that is a load of bullshit is staggering and many truly believe that lowering of the speed limit on
suburban streets by 5KPH is garbage and has NO effect other than to irritate them and to quickly fill police revenue coffers.....Oh....My....Gawd! Its
the difference between a frightend child and a splattered dead one............
I recently took 2 police traffic branch sergeants as part of a broad cross section of candidates thru a basic defensive driver training course and
they both failed most of the tasks.
These guys are advance driver trained already and must be considered competent and experienced drivers, yet were unable to brake and avoid in either
direction at 40 KPH! Not able to do an emergency stop without locking all 4 wheels (without ABS) and some other fairly simple tasks.
I actually felt quite sorry for them as they displayed a dismal grasp of basic defensive driver awareness in front of some rather influential
government managers.......
There are multitudes of other instances that i can write about that further highlight the basic items that drivers should know as rote, before they
are EVER allowed to even attach an "L" plate, yet are completely unaware of things which sometimes goes close to frightening me!!!!!!!!!
This is the main direction as far as I am concerned, not how to maintain a long slide, how to double shuffle, how to emergency brake without locking
wheels, clutchless gearchanges and so-on.
Those more advanced techniques can certainly come later for those that actually WANT to do them but armed with the mandatory basic driver awareness
and defensive techniques, you may NEVER actually have to use them in ordinary day to day motoring!
Of course, it goes without saying that there is an element of drivers that will simply ignore/forget or whatever basic defensive driver training the
moment they leave the training ground and will insist on 160KPH traffic light derbies with 7 in the car, drive when pissed, apply makeup, not strap in
a baby and think they can hold them in event of a minor impact, read the paper or yaffle on a fucking wankerfone whist driving oblivious to all around
them and so-on.
There is a term used for these people,
"You cant educate fuckwits"
and the rest of us have to deal with them as best we can but hopefully, some of our basic defensive knowledge will come into play automatically and
maybe/possiblly avert a major drama.
IMHO, make gaining a driving licenses a priveledge and not a right!
"You wanta play? You gotta pay!" Put a bit of value on a drivers license and you "may" just save a life!
Even one life is worth it in the long term.
L8tr
E
[ Edited on 8/1/06 by tassupervee ]
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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jvl054
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 03:28 PM |
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These are good valued opinions:thumb....But i still say dont blame it on the roads.:oDrive to the conditions given to you or thats in front of
you!!!!....most roads aint going to be fix until we are 100years old!!!! sounds silly:o.....Compulsory advanced driving course:thumb JVLRacing
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tassupervee
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| posted on January 8th, 2006 at 05:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by jvl054
But i still say dont blame it on the roads.:oDrive to the conditions given to you or thats in front of you!!!!... JVLRacing
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Couldnt agree more old china!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Spook
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 07:37 AM |
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It's a no win situation.
You can't teach common sense & you can't legislate against stupidity.
Long before you call for advance courses, you have to look at the licencing system itself.
In 1979, when I got my bike licence, a man stood in front of me & gave me a verbal exam. He asked nearly every question in the book & he knew the
answers. He knew whether you knew what you were talking about. Pass or fail.
In 1984, I got a car licence. A piece of paper with multiple choice questions. Then a little girl puts a piece of plastic over it with the right
answers circled. So it's not the girl knows whether your right or wrong, it's the piece of plastic.
Because I let my car licence expire (these were the days of seperate licences) I resat the test in 1992.
This time it was all computer, no human interaction. Multiple choice again, with two of the four "answers" so absurd you always had a 50/50 chance
even if you knew f#ck all.
This is the system in NSW now.
I have no doubt the actual driving test still consists of stop, start, hill start, reverse park & 3 point turn.
You have to go back to the initail tests being more stringent before you start talking advanced.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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green_golf
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 07:51 AM |
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In the States, everytime you get a speeding fine you have the option of paying the fine and recieving the demerit points, or you can do a Government
funded driving course. The other thing that is better over there, is that you can get your licence at 16 and it takes another 4 to 5 years {depending
on which State you are in} before you are able to purchase alcohol. So you eliminated that "I am drunk and just got my licence lets go for a spin,"
and it will all be fine attitude. |
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 barls
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 09:53 AM |
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i think this is on the right track with compulsory advanced drivers courses, but we need to go further and do a total review of the system, starting
with driving tests every 5 years and different licenses for different classes of vehicles i.e small cars, medium cars, large cars, 4wds and heavy
passenger.
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amazeer
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 11:29 AM |
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You people have licences????? According to figures published in Wheels magazine, NSW police picked up 60862 unlicenced drivers in 2004. If you think
of how many people are out there speeding and getting away with it, and transpose those figures over to unlicenced driving..... hundreds of thousands
of people are out there unlicenced. You will pass a couple on the way to school/work today.
They also published speculative figures on how many people are driving unlicenced and getting away with it, how many are involved in accidents and
fatalities, although I scoff at these figures as they are exaclty the ones that Wheels scoff at when arguing against the speed limits. The 60862 is
probably an accurate figure though.
I think the driving courses would be good for most people over 30. I think for young people, especially the most at risk, the opposite could happen
and we make them overconfident. If they think they can get away with a big 4 wheel drift on the eastern creek skidpan, they may just go try it around
the neighbourhood. When you push things to the limit... shit happens. View summernats and any race meeting in the country.
P plates dont mean incompetant, it means provisional. You are suppposed to be competent and are assumed so while you serve your P plate period. The
losing 4 points idea meaning that you arent competant so get off the road/ Non P platers get 12 points so arguably they could be less competant. They
can be 3 times as bad as P platers. In general driving I dont see young p platers as bad drivers. They are probably better. They at least have a
better knowledge of the rules as they have just studied the book. Its only the hooning factor that comes in occasionally that sets them apart. Slacken
off the accelerator so they only get half throttle and that would fix em
 
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 12:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Pretty_Blue_Bug
Was just reading a Shannons insurance brochure thingy yesterday, and they will cover you for doing a driver education course unless
it's run by CAMS.
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well thats good to know, because most policies will not cover any course or activity undertaken off a public road, so if it is on a test track that
you are doing your program you are not covered.
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baybuscamperkid
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 12:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Spook
You can't teach common sense & you can't legislate against stupidity.
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couldnt agree more 
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on January 9th, 2006 at 02:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Pretty_Blue_Bug
Was just reading a Shannons insurance brochure thingy yesterday, and they will cover you for doing a driver education course unless
it's run by CAMS.
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Why does that not surprise me? I think it says alot about CAMS.
Conferation of Automotive Money Stealing....:P
Just kidding of course, but damn it feels like that.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 10:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | Originally
posted by jvl054
But i still say dont blame it on the roads.:oDrive to the conditions given to you or thats in front of you!!!!... JVLRacing
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Couldnt agree more old china!
L8tr
E
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I agree too... but the problem is, there is very little training to recognise what the 'conditions' are. That's what defensive - not advanced -
training is all about
Pay your debts, CxxT
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PrettyBlueBug
A.k.a.: P.B.B....
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 11:49 AM |
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True Pete! :P
I think it's because Shannons won't insure you if you're racing.... and since CAMS is associated with racing they don't go there. I'm pretty sure
though that if you do a CAMS course or something, you're car is covered by their insurance thingy.... and if you want yourself covered you need an
Ambulance membership.
I used to co-drive in rally cars and when I went to renew my CAMS license they wanted me to have a full medical (even though I filled in a heap of
info on the forms... but then I got another letter saying that since I'm asthmatic I can't be covered. How crap is that! 
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Pretty_Blue_Bug
Was just reading a Shannons insurance brochure thingy yesterday, and they will cover you for doing a driver education course unless
it's run by CAMS.
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Why does that not surprise me? I think it says alot about CAMS.
Conferation of Automotive Money Stealing....:P
Just kidding of course, but damn it feels like that.
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amazeer
A.k.a.: Surly Duff
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| posted on January 10th, 2006 at 04:57 PM |
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Conspiracy Against Motor Sport is my chosen acronym.
Any grade 3 stewards out there want to come to Huntley so I can run the same hillclimb ive been running for 15 years? Officials accreditation is
killing Huntley Hillclimb.
Not sure about driving courses, but any other cams sanctioned event permit including non speed touring events only covers liability insurance.
Personal accident insurance is provided under your cams licence. I 'think' you can insure a race car for theft, but cover for cars in competition
not available
We had a guy in our club who had a bad heart. He was allowed to compete up until the point where he had a bypass. So when he was sick, unfit, and at
risk of heart attack he was safe to run. Now he is fit and healthy.... they wont issue a licence. Thats logic for ya.
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theverybigtallman
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| posted on January 11th, 2006 at 03:49 PM |
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my $0.02
| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee, slightly modified
licencing should be more pro-active rather than re-active in defensive driver education where the focus is on actually how to RECOGNISE and AVOID the
emergency instance in the very first place rather than HOW to actually steer out of a drama with the car in a delicately controlled, tyre smoking and
hair-on-fire tailout sideways slide and so-on!
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very true, but it always good to know what to do, just in case.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
Remember the ad with the "two identical cars, one travelling 5KPH faster than the other"? The difference in impact with the semi-trailer being a
dented front-end and pride and death?
The amount of drivers that actually believe that that is a load of bullshit is staggering...
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lets change that scenario. now make it:
"two cars, one doing 60, the other 65. the one doing 65 is a brand new bmw m3 (for eg.) and the one doing 60 is a 30 year old corolla with rooted
shocks and springs, bald and half flat tyres and dirty windscreen. the same truck pulls out in front of them, which driver walks away?"
what amazes me is:
1) as long a car is kept in rego, it doesnt have to have a roadworthy check. this is madness! i wonder what a compulsory r/w check every 1, 3 or 5
years (depending on vehicle age) would do to the road toll
2) most drivers don't know how to check if their car is safe. surely, included into shaihulud's compulsory drivers ed day could be some education
about how to keep your car safe - tyre pressures and tread, suspension condition etc. sure, we hear about this stuff when a change of season comes and
on public holidays, but there a lot of time in between.
early 60s beetle for sale - ex bush basher - spares - $100 or offers
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tassupervee
A.k.a.: Knob Jockey
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| posted on January 11th, 2006 at 05:24 PM |
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| Quote: | 2) most drivers
don't know how to check if their car is safe. surely, included into shaihulud's compulsory drivers ed day could be some education about how to keep
your car safe - tyre pressures and tread, suspension condition etc. sure, we hear about this stuff when a change of season comes and on public
holidays, but there a lot of time in between.
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Yes! Very valid point but here is the rub.
We are not allowed to advise our students as to what pressures to run or in fact ANY other mechanical specification in both advanced and defensive
driver training programmes!.
We are only allowed to say "Whatever your vehicle owners manual recommends".
This is purely a liability driven issue as if we say, "sure, blow your tyres up to 35psi. Your car will steer more directly and be lighter in the
steering and contribute to better tyre wear and fuel economy" and the driver has an accident, we can be right in the firing line for a lawsuit if
some kind of twisted form of liability can be pointed at the instructors.
Now go and figure that out......................
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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jvl054
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| posted on January 11th, 2006 at 06:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | 2) most drivers
don't know how to check if their car is safe. surely, included into shaihulud's compulsory drivers ed day could be some education about how to keep
your car safe - tyre pressures and tread, suspension condition etc. sure, we hear about this stuff when a change of season comes and on public
holidays, but there a lot of time in between.
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Yes! Very valid point but here is the rub.
We are not allowed to advise our students as to what pressures to run or in fact ANY other mechanical specification in both advanced and defensive
driver training programmes!.
We are only allowed to say "Whatever your vehicle owners manual recommends".
This is purely a liability driven issue as if we say, "sure, blow your tyres up to 35psi. Your car will steer more directly and be lighter in the
steering and contribute to better tyre wear and fuel economy" and the driver has an accident, we can be right in the firing line for a lawsuit if
some kind of twisted form of liability can be pointed at the instructors.
Now go and figure that out......................
L8tr
E
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So the fact is......Should it be E...for Ego Driver instead of P...Provisional Driver.....So when these kids hop in a Advanced
Driving Course Car i bet they have the right tyre pressure.Then ,when these kids hop back in ther own vehicles (TYRE PRESSURES ALL OVER THE PLACE
35psi LW..26psi RW..etc..) the false of secruity comes into play!!!!!One accident to happen:o this is scary.JVLRacing
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tassupervee
A.k.a.: Knob Jockey
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That really hurts doesnt it!
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| posted on January 11th, 2006 at 07:41 PM |
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Actually, the notion that you teach drivers advanced driving techniques so they immediately go out on the road and put them into practise just holds
no, or at least, very little water.
This is a fairly common misconception, (and understandably so) but, no matter what the age of the student, (apart from the ones that dont want to be
there), the facts just dont support it.
Actually, to a certain extent, its quite the opposite as students have it demonstrated to them the fact that they are not as good drivers as many of
them think they are.
Especially galling for them is when this is done in front of their co-students. Instructors dont have to do much. They pretty much let themselves do
it!
Advanced driving techniques simply cannot be learned in an 8 hour session. These kind of techniques require repeated and intensive practise to get
them right time after time.
What most of these shorter advanced courses tend to do is more make them aware of their shortcomings and heighten awareness rather than simply
encourage them to fang about.
This misconception probably owes its existence to the clowns that piss off from the likes indoor karting venues and drag races like a bull-out-a-gate!
That kind dont have their failings made so public so probably feel rather invincible at the time.
From an instructors perspective, its really quite amusing to watch the really cocky ones strut in, in various souped up wagons, you know the type,
XR-6 Turbos, Clubsport Commondoors with all the fruit......... the HRT team jackets blah!, with plenty of tickets on themselves and as the tasks
become increrasingly more complex, watch the mantle slip and finally fall!!
A great laugh for instructors and rather embarrasing for them!!!
These ones are really quite easy to spot right from the initial get together in the morning.
I often think they think they have something to prove to the instructors or have something to actually teach us!!!!!!!!
Then, you can begin to work with them and its amazing the transformation that takes place and the usually take away a new respect for the road and
cars in general!
Anyway, I digress, the topic is really about defensive driving techniques.Advanced stuff comes later.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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