| [ Total Views: 4506 | Total Replies: 189 | Thread Id: 71616 ] |
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 HotRodMatt
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 11:05 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I want to see people live forever.
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Delusional.
Stick to Prozac. It does less damage to your brain.
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 12:51 PM |
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I'm sure he is speaking MetaPhysically
I miss DoubleCab.. It was my faith to harass the hell out of him (ooh.. I said Hell.. Is that a religious statement?)
| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I want to see people live forever.
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Delusional.
Stick to Prozac. It does less damage to your brain.
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volumex
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 12:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!! 
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Well said, this is about the most constructive 'religion' thread I have ever seen. Most collapse into anarchy in a few pages, but this has
generally been very positive.
I'll throw my 2c in. I have a faith, but I only discovered it later in life - so I totally agree with everyone who gets jacked off by bible bashers
or other 'in your face' recruitment styles. I try to live my life according to my beliefs. If people ask me a question about my faith, then I give
them a straight answer. I don't go looking to ram it down other peoples throats - and conversly I don't appreciate it when others try to
"convert" me to their faith or lack thereof. I get particularly annoyed by those who seek to belittle my faith with "facts", when their goal is
simply to commence an arguement that I have no interest in pursuing.
Everyone has to believe in something, but no-one should force anyone else to believe the same thing.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 01:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by volumex
Everyone has to believe in something, but no-one should force anyone else to believe the same thing.
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that's true. well said.
by that measure, we need see that atheism is a religion of sorts too.
btw, I was speaking literally when I said "forever".
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newoldmanx
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 01:40 PM |
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religion is fantastic ....if you lack the mental capacity to cope with life without it its great to have a shoulder to lean on for those less
fortunate in an array circumstances fundamentalism in all its guises is something to beware of
for the rest of us spontaneous goodness might suffice
but i reckon stealing is very wrong if you you kids or your friends want to steal something and make it acceptable just say we "discovered" it
make up excuses like "well the previous owners were not going to use it to the full potential that i have"
'the previous owners are just savages anyway" etc etc
if you really believe stealing is wrong and you live in Australia poll / lobby your local reps to give it ALL back and all the foreign revenue earned
from exporting its natural resources to its owners and prepare to pay RENT!!!! yep even the so called "dole bludgers"
still don't like the idea of stealing??????
its just a car for f*%k sake
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 01:50 PM |
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No doubt the idea of an afterlife is a powerful and conforting notion, particulary as you start getting on in years and you realise that your time on
earth is slowly running out. But I just can't belileve it. It raises more questions than it answers.
For example, are humans the only creatures that have an afterlife? Have all humans through history had an afterlife? Do you have to be a christian to
have an afterlife - what if you are a follower of another religion? What about native African, American or Australian people, particularly those who
haven't come into contact with Christians, if that is a requirement? The ancient Egyptians believed in afterlife - at least for the Pharoahs - what
about the rest of the population? What about the people who were born before Christ was born? What about the people who lived in ancient China, or the
Aztecs, Mayans, Vikings and so on?
If people have afterlives, what about chimpanzees? Gorillas? Surely a dog who spends its life doing devoted work, showing emotion, and intelligence,
also deserves an afterlife? What about cats? Hamsters? Koalas? Dolphins? Fish? Eagles? Budgies? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Where do you draw the
line?
And even if we do have an afterlife, how does it work? Do you spend eternity at the age (and condition) that you die? Does an invalid who dies at 90
spend eternity like that? Does a cot death baby spend eternity as an infant? A child killed in a car crash spend eternity as a child? Or do you get to
choose? If you get married several times, which spouse do you get to spend eternity with? If you meet your ancestors (such as your dead
parents/grandparents etc), are you all the same age? How would they see you?
It just seems so unlikely to me. My own opinion is that we altready know what it's like to be dead - you think back to what it was like in the years
before you were born. You just weren't around.
I like the idea of reincarnation too, but there are reasons why it can't work either.
Pete I have to disagree with you about athiesm being a religion. You can't believe in something that you don't believe! I do believe in the law of
gravity, and the theory of electromagnetism, and that pi is an irrational number (to give just a few examples). But I don't see how that can be a
'religion'.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 02:08 PM |
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You would have to agree there are Atheists that exhibit a religious style of attitude to their beliefs and evangelise people to convert. Richard
Dawkins comes to mind.
I agree that the afterlife raises questions. And it seems hard to find answers. We want someone relialble to tell us what it's like. Someone who's
been there.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 03:14 PM |
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Yes you are right, although I'd say that some overly pushy athiests might exhibit a religious style of attitude to their LACK of beliefs. Personally
I am not a believer, but I'm not going to try to influence or 'convert' anyone away from religious faith. If I did I would be as bad as the pushy
'bible bashers' we've already mentioned. I'm only going to say that I don't believe, and I'll tell you the reasons why if you ask me.
Skepticism does have its place, mostly in the fields of debunking obvious nonsense such as astrology, tarot, iridoloogy, clairvoyance, auras, talking
to the dead, divining, energies unknown to science and the like, things that can be put to scientific testing. Particularly where it preys on the less
well informed to extract money from them (how many Brock Orgone Energy Polarisers were sold?). I don't think personal religious faith comes into
that. Things like fundamental creationism, religious persecution, cults, crimes committed by clergy etc of course, would, and rightly so.
One problem I see with believing (strongly) in an afterlife is that it may lead to a lack of appreciation of the value of human life. Would suicide
bombers still volunteer to carry out their heinous crimes if they didn't think they were going to heaven with x number of virgins? If more people had
the idea that once you're dead, you're dead, killings and wars might be greatly reduced.
I also have a mate who became seriously 'born again' (if you know what I mean) 20 or so years ago. I remember once he said to me, "Wow, I can
hardly wait until I'm dead." That made me very sad to hear that. He is far more moderate today (thanks to getting married and having kids), but he
still has his personal faith, which is great for him.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 03:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
One problem I see with believing (strongly) in an afterlife is that it may lead to a lack of appreciation of the value of human life.
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And how much better is it when people do "good" for reasons other than the ludicrous concept of an eternal reward after you're dead?
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Mick058
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 03:42 PM |
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| Quote: |
I also have a mate who became seriously 'born again' (if you know what I mean) 20 or so years ago. I remember once he said to me, "Wow, I can
hardly wait until I'm dead." That made me very sad to hear that. He is far more moderate today (thanks to getting married and having kids), but he
still has his personal faith, which is great for him.
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For me my faith brings meaning, a meaning to this life and an understanding of why things are the way they are.
I wouldn't say "Wow, I can hardly wait until I'm dead." But i do look forward to eternity. Just imagine the Christian point of view of
'eternity' - even if you personally don't believe it, it is a great thing for a Christian to look forward to.
To me there is too much 'order' in creation for there not to be a creator. I believe in the Christian God (if we want to label it that) because i
believe in the truth of the bible and i have seen the changes of my 'conversion' (this word holds to many negative connotation). I was a very
different person before i came to faith. I had no christian family and wasn't depressed or in need of another lifestyle, i just came to faith
because to me it makes sense.
It deserves careful study before rejecting the idea - unfortunately there are too many bad examples of a 'Christian' that create so many negative
views.
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grogy
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 04:00 PM |
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theres a big diff between bible bashing [sharing something u belive in, u dont have to agree] and literally bashing, which is what many so called
religions do to further their cause, or the political agenda from where they live,
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newoldmanx
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| posted on September 10th, 2008 at 05:20 PM |
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just imagine the aboriginals faces when the christians after taking all the land children and dignity educated them about the commandments of
"god"
dont use the lords name in vain
honour your father and mother (you remember the ppl we stole you from)
do not kill (this doesnt include savages)
dont commit adultery (unless she is a pretty young savage)
do not steal (we discovered your land we didnt steal it)
dont bear false witness (again we didnt steal your land)
thou shalt not covet
even though they had been there for 130000yrs +++ we felt the need to "Help" them through our religion
to many, religion is a very powerful and very useful tool
correct me if i am mistaken but Jesus was a carpenter not a paid minister
and to say that mass education is a legacy of christianity is a eurocentric view that all scholars of asian history would find laughable and at the
same time predictable
the pope just managed to come to Australia (my daughters both went to see him) can anyone fill me in on his planned visit to Dafur Afghanistan,
Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo,
Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives,
Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan,
East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia
seems like these countries need all the help they can get
its just a car for f*%k sake
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jenz58
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| posted on September 23rd, 2008 at 05:37 PM |
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God I am so glad there are still people posting like this on AVWD 
Religion, OK don't get me started 
If it makes people happy and it is not hurting anyone else then people should be free to believe what they want
People have always believed in a creator, and there are so many similarities with tribal beliefs all over the world
Organised religion is very bound up in politics and has been used against minorities throughout history
People do interpret the writings to meet their own ends
There are many good people in all religions, and a few baddies who go spoil it all
OK that was very brief cos I have to log off again
Stay cool
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h
A.k.a.: Towely BuMpEr KING! ILLegal ALIEN on a roadtrip
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| posted on September 23rd, 2008 at 07:11 PM |
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fyi..
i currently have my outstretched palm on my monitor.. (pause.. total concentration)
demons..
Demons..
DEMONS OUT!!
i hope that fixes all ur problems in life peeps.. 
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pete wood
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| posted on September 24th, 2008 at 12:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by newoldmanx
just imagine the aboriginals faces when the christians after taking all the land children and dignity educated them about the commandments of
"god"
dont use the lords name in vain
honour your father and mother (you remember the ppl we stole you from)
do not kill (this doesnt include savages)
dont commit adultery (unless she is a pretty young savage)
do not steal (we discovered your land we didnt steal it)
dont bear false witness (again we didnt steal your land)
thou shalt not covet
even though they had been there for 130000yrs +++ we felt the need to "Help" them through our religion
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I suspect it was just as foreign as everything else that white settlement brought.
Lets just remember though, there is a difference between European opportunism and real Christianity. Christianity means following Jesus and should be
selfless service to others in his name. Opportunism is something entirely different and is about what people can take for themselves. There are a lot
of people who say they are "Christians" but are certainly not "following Jesus". This is why middle eastern Islam has such a low view of
"Christianity". Look what greedy people have done in the name of Jesus. Let's not confuse these people with real Christians. Watch what people do,
not what they say. This is not to say that real Christians are perfect, but at least they are trying to head in the right direction.
| Quote: | correct me if i am
mistaken but Jesus was a carpenter not a paid minister
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When Jesus gave up carpentry, other people financially supported his ministry. So in that capacity, he was a paid minister. No he didn't stay in one
spot or have a bank account, but yes he was financially backed by believers.
| Quote: | and to say that mass
education is a legacy of christianity is a eurocentric view that all scholars of asian history would find laughable and at the same time
predictable
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And yet the protestant reformation brought just this. Anywhere protestant Christians went, they started schools so that people could read the bible
for themselves, in their own language if at all possible. Most Universities started as Christian education institutions. Now, that's not to say they
forced people to believe the bible, but at least they could make up their own mind. Prior to this, for a 1000 years, only priests could read the
bible in Latin and only the church in Rome was sanctioned to tell you what it meant...and they often twisted it. That's why the reformation happened
in the first place. Luther and Zwingli read the bible in the original languages and found large differences between what it said and what the Roman
Catholic church was teaching.
And yes, I too disagree with the pope on a multitude of things.
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ancientbugger
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| posted on September 24th, 2008 at 05:44 PM |
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Sorry to interupt guys and here I can only speak for myself, but what I fear most is that when I'm on my deathbed isn't whether or not there is to
be an afterlife (or an 'apres vie'- you need to read hitch hikers guide for that one) but having missed out on all the things I hadn't done. I
certainly won't regret anything I had done as most of them were fun
And what could be more disappointing than if you have been strictly religious all of your life and then suddenly having the revelation that this was
it, nothing more, and you've missed out on all the partying and women and partying and women and party....sorry I've already covered that. But just
in case though I have been led to believe that if there is a god he'll forgive me anyway so I win both ways.....now back to that party
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on September 24th, 2008 at 06:37 PM |
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So what happens if you get killed on the way to work tomorrow??
If you haven't asked for forgiveness you know what happens next.....
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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MickH
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| posted on September 24th, 2008 at 07:35 PM |
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When you're dead you're dead.Worm food etc.....
tssnq.com.au
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pete wood
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 11:18 AM |
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A friend said to me last night she heard two athiests (one serious, one not) talking about whether it mattered if there was a God. The serious athiest
said, "if God does exist, we're in a lot of trouble". Funny thing was, even though he doesn't think there is one, he apparently looked very
concerned. I often wonder whether Atheism is a way of avoiding responsibility for most people. It's the whole "if He doesn't exist, I don't have
to answer to Him" concept.
Some people protest too hard that there is not a God. You know what they say about protesting too much. Food for thought. 
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 02:05 PM |
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Interesting points there Pete. I don't understand why a thinking athiest should be concerned at the possibilty he is wrong. Athiesm is not a belief
system, it is the lack of a belief system! He starts with the assumption that there is no God. A Christian then tells comes along and tells him what
SHE belileves, and why, perhaps with the goal of making him a believer too. A good athiest will listen with an open mind (and NOT dismiss out of
hand!), and then point out his perceived problems with the belief, or the reasons, or both. He should look at the reasons. He ought to take time to do
some further study, if required. He might then say, 'sorry, based on that evidence, I don't believe it.' On the other hand, he might find the
reasons convincing, in which case he might become a new believer.
But in either case, it should be based on what evidence he sees. It is not up to the athiest to 'prove' there is no God - that's impossible. The
athiest is starting from the 'blank' position. The believer is the one making the proposition for a God existing, so the burden of proof lies with
them. It is like proposing that two-headed, omnipotent purple aliens live on the planet Cylon. I can't prove that statemen is wrong, but I don't
have to. I start by assuming they don't exist. If you propose the aliens exist, then YOU have the burden of proof. Show me! They might very well
exist, and you might believe with all your heart that they do. But until there is evidence, I don't accept it.
Maybe the purple aliens do exist after all. But if they do, am I trouble for not believing, based on insufficient evidence reaching me? If so, why?
The serious athiest Pete describes, sounds more to me like an agnostic who wants to hedge his bets! Certainly the Christian beliefs of a glorious
afterlife for the faithful would be very comforting on one's deathbed (one of the reasons it is popular?). But I don't believe it, so I reckon
that's taking, not avoiding, responsibility. And we can't keep trashing the earth and each other, and say 'Don't worry, Jesus will come back soon
and fix everything.' Why should I believe that? We need to take responsibility ourselves.
Pete is right, some people do protest too hard, saying there is no God. But I would think that lots more people protest too hard that there IS.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 04:27 PM |
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One of my favourite bits of graffitti was near Milton Station it said "God made athiest's too" Now who do your reckon wrote it? A believer or a
non-believer?
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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pete wood
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 05:53 PM |
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We need some that says, "Atheism was an accident"
Think about it.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 06:43 PM |
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Or better still "religion is a lie for the weak minded"
Think about it
tssnq.com.au
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 06:45 PM |
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aw karn, that's old. come up with something different. I'm bored with it.
BTW, I'm bored with religion too. Not into religion at all.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on September 25th, 2008 at 07:14 PM |
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Sorry,forgot you were into cults...but if you were brainwashed at an early age I suppose thats all you know.When my eldest comes home from school and
tells me what he's "learnt about jesus" it cracks me up with some of the crap they fill young minds with. But being open minded and not one to push
my beliefs onto anyone else I chose to send him there (to a christian school) to be aware of "both sides of the story" so he can make up his own
mind when he is older.The education is sooo much better at a private school thanks to government funding
"The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared
conviction."
"The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and
teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."
I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.
tssnq.com.au
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newoldmanx
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| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 05:14 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
Sorry,forgot you were into cults...but if you were brainwashed at an early age I suppose thats all you know.When my eldest comes home from school and
tells me what he's "learnt about jesus" it cracks me up with some of the crap they fill young minds with. But being open minded and not one to push
my beliefs onto anyone else I chose to send him there (to a christian school) to be aware of "both sides of the story" so he can make up his own
mind when he is older.The education is sooo much better at a private school thanks to government funding
"The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared
conviction."
"The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and
teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."
I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.
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well said mick 
its just a car for f*%k sake
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newoldmanx
A.k.a.: Billy
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 05:32 AM |
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"believers"
we need more ministers
who would support us if we were all ministers 
its just a car for f*%k sake
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newoldmanx
A.k.a.: Billy
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| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 05:33 AM |
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do you think "god" would be pleased that we squander money on hobby cars while his children starve around the globe what would jesus have done
gods children -- our "brothers and sisters" children men and women starving to death
this message may or may not be inspired by god
it may not have been gods will that you read this or it may have been just that
what would jesus have done 
its just a car for f*%k sake
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Phil74Camper
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Head in the Clouds
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| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 07:39 AM |
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"One of my favourite bits of graffitti was near Milton Station it said "God made athiest's too" Now who do your reckon wrote it? A believer or a
non-believer?"
Who can say? I only know it was written by someone who doesn't know how to use an apostrophe correctly.
Religion must take some of the blame for 'children starving to death around the world.' Lack of contraception in developing countries is a major
reason for overpopulation and subsequent starvation. Teaching about birth control would be a good start - and keep religious beliefs out of it. And
Australia is one of the highest givers of foreign aid, per head of population, in the world. We already give generously to charities, so go point your
moral radar somewhere else.
What would Jesus have done about what? What would Socrates have done? Ghengis Khan? Shakespeare? Galileo? Florence Nightingale? Fred Hollows?
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on September 26th, 2008 at 08:54 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.
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religious practice? no I'm not into that at all.
I'm into faith and relationship. I pray when every I want, I help others whenever and wherever I want. There's no need for practice because I have
absolute freedom to do what I like. I choose to use my freedom to serve Jesus and talk about him.
I'm pleased you think I sound like the bible. That's my aim.
BTW, Christianity didn't cause world poverty. If we all followed Jesus teaching poverty wouldn't exist.
Also ask yourself where the great Aussie ethic of "giving people a fair go" comes from. It's not Greek Philosophy (democracy was only for rich men)
or Egyptian teaching (they had slaves remember), it comes from Jesus teaching. Look what happened after the Pacific Tsunami. Who gave all the aid to
the Islamic countries? From what I understand it wasn't other Islamic countries. Why is that?
When you point the gun at "religion", you're not pointing it at a bunch of beliefs that are all the same.
Muhommad said God talked to him and killed people, Jesus says he is God and was killed but rose again, Budha said God didn't really exist as such,
Hindu says there a millions of Gods, Atheism says none of them were God because God doesn't exist. All of them say they are telling the truth.
Truth is important. Which one of them is telling the truth? I don't think that figuring out the truth is as simple as people make out.
BTW, I'm still enjoying this discussion. It's great that it's not descending into personal attacks.
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