| [ Total Views: 3092 | Total Replies: 114 | Thread Id: 7168 ] |
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 fatboy
Wolfsburg Wizard
Disciple of Kol
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 10:35 PM |
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Of course you could just delete everyones account make them sign up again.
:jesus
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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KruizinKombi
A.k.a.: Col
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 10:47 PM |
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I see no problem with the new rules, basically because I have no plans to break them. :thumb
Kruizin Kol
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amazer
Bishop of Volkswagenism
kombi pilot
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Spook
Because, Andrew, if the answer is exclusion, you will find yourself in court.
As no law can be made retrospective, neither can any rule.
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bzzz no gong for you. I paid $800 for the best radar detector money could buy a few years ago. If I put it in my car now, even if its in the box, I
will be fined.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by amazer]
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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57kombi
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:07 PM |
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Just had the Missus read these posts,
she is a solicitor,
and stated that the forum can restrict any one it wants, it can also be held responsible for other peoples comments as it is publishing them,
She did inform me that if I said " fred Boggs changed the brakes on my kombi and I drove it home and the wheel fell off" i could not be sued
, neither could the forum.
If I went on and said they changed thebrakes and the wheel fell of "they are crap dont ever use them" I could get done for deformation and
so could the forum for publishing it.
She did say that there is no record of any site in OZ being sued yet
The way around this is to state on the first page of the forum that comments are from the individuals and do not represent the views of the forum or
its operators.
She told me that the truth is absolute defense so if a company/person has done wrong and you can prove it then you have nothing to worry about.
I am only saying this as i think this is all down to the the fact that some one has slagged off a supplier, could be wrong.
Another thing, in the South Australian Supreme Court it was found that the word FU*K was not found to be offensive , but then some people might find
it offensive it all goes to the person who said it and in what context it is said(i didnt want to type it incase I am kicked off this forum).
I have inthe past stood up for freedom of speech and always will, its just really sad when it gets to this.
We seem to have thses episodes every 6 months and a lot of it has to do with the way some moderators talk down to other members and say it WILL happen
this way or You Will do this , I think if a little bit of tact was used we would all get on a bit better,
I agree with Jim a few people have been on this forum a lot longer than some moderators and deserve a bit of respect.
As usual just my 2 cents worth , and it is only my view.
Also FatBoy, this site is to do with volksy's so why do you have that comment about the war on your posts,
I find that offensive so will you remove it.
Isnt that the same as you found nudity offensive, The fact about the nudity was that some one decided to get rid of the post after they had said they
needed to get a special program to enhance it to see pink bits, yes it was Andrew and that is why Spook was pi$$ed off, so where a few others, it
wasnt that it was taken off it was the way that it was done.
Cheers
Dave:jesus
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by 57kombi]
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PostModern
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 57kombi
She did say that there is no record of any site in OZ being sued yet
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Ah. Now that you mention it, it appears the site I hinted at was threatened with a law suit and spent a ton of money on advice about how to avoid a
full-blown suit.
Their rules are here and here. Long and convoluted due to the legal expenses they've had
to face in the past.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]
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PostModern
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:40 PM |
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This is the stuff I mentioned earlier about info only under court order.
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The Broadcasting Services Act provides a statutory defence for Internet Content Hosts against suits for subsidiary publication of defamatory
materials. Therefore, if a person has a problem with the content of a post, their only remedy is to contact OCAU to ask that the post be removed. If
they want to know the identity of the person who made the potentially defamatory post, they should apply to a NSW court for an order for OCAU to hand
over whatever information OCAU has which could potentially be used to identify the person. They will have to pay all costs associated with that court
order. Once OCAU receives such a court order, we will happily comply with it and then the person with the complaint is free to attempt to directly sue
the person who actually made the post for defamation, at their own cost. OCAU will play no further part in the matter.
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amazer
Bishop of Volkswagenism
kombi pilot
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:47 PM |
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I have no problems living under the rules.
The 'without any reason' statement is everywhere. Its in CAMS documents. Doesnt mean you are going to be kicked out for being ugly or left
handed or ... ( i do hope nobody is ugly and left handed . entirely ficticious, any resemblance to forum members living or dead coincidental)
If you go and start listing reasons then you cant do whatever it is when that one reason you dont list shows up.
I've had the power to delete or edit threads since day one. I dont need a reason. I can do it anytime and nobody would know who did it. Certain
people and threads I'd like to do it to every day. But I dont. Nobody here is a nazi. Everything that has been done has been done in consultation
with other mods online as far as I know.
If we dont have rules and make people stick to them, who is going to maintain the forum? Maybe if we kick in $100 each to fund andrews liability
insurance he will stay on. Or do we just keep losing people like brad until there is no more forum?
perhaps those who want a flaming enriched, porn drenched vw forum could make their own?
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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 vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:53 PM |
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I am not discussing nudity again as I simply cannot get through to those who like their pink bits.
On the issue of respect. I am a nice guy. People who know me and have met me know this to be true. By default, I respect everyone, particularly those
active in the scene. But if anyone time and time again kicks virtual sand in my face for no apparent reason, I don't have to take that. If you
have lost my trust and respect, well, it takes an awful long time to regain it, and only through consistent and wilful application of being
thoughtful, active members who give selflessly to their community. I don't see that AT ALL in the one or two people who seem to have lost my
respect.
I have tried to respect Spook's views. If you look at the edits, they positively reflect many of Spook's suggestions / comments, such as a
time extension and clarification of certain points. I edit them, and he kicks back at me again. Respect? Yeah, right.
---
On the < 18 y.o. issue - fatboy you are right. Less than 18 yo's can't sign binding contracts, so them clicking "accept" will
not be valid. Let me do some research on a method to do this. I think we have three active < 18 y.o's - Adam, Zac, and Moonlight and there
will be others. I don't want to lose any of them.
Andrew
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:06 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by PostModern
The court would go to the ISP and ask for the DHCP logs to be checked and find out whose account and (according to the mail I just got from Optus)
which phone number used that IP at the time of the post - even if you switch off caller ID.
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I looked at that when I worked at OptusNet. Caller ID blocked are logged by the 5300's like this:
03 9395 4XXX
ie, they can tell roughly where you are from, but provide you with a bit of anonyminity. Emergency services don't face this block - hospital and
000 switches have your number and address flash up when you ring them, but lucky for you guys, we aren't an emergency service!
Now, yes, we do have the time and your IP address from where you logged in last, and the time and IP address from which you posted every single
post.
Theoretically, we could bring that up by doing custom queries. If required by discovery to do so, we would HAVE to provide this information, or face
contempt of court and potentially jail. I like you folks, but not enough to become someone's beaaatch.
Andrew
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hool
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:10 AM |
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an ip address is owned by an isp, even if you are on a dial-up account the isps records will show which user account an ip address was allocated to at
any given time, rather than the phone number you dialled in from...
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amazer
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:17 AM |
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solicitors/lawyers/barristers can say whatever they like. The facts are that people do get sued. It doesnt matter if they 'can' or not. they
do. Even if you are in the right, it still costs money to prove you're right.
Lets face it. the whole liability crisis comes from law firms advertising that they can sue people, pay no costs unless you win rubbish. I'm not
sure if we should blame those people or shoddy defense lawyers. The fact remains, they will sue because they can make money out of it.
There's few places in this country where you can say what you like and not be held accountable. And to get to those places you have to be a
politican. Coincidently a lot of politicians are law graduates.
Ride out the storm andrew! You got my support.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:18 AM |
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hool, you are right.
But Optusnet also keep the caller ID string. We used it to find abused staff (zero rated) accounts.
Andrew
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hool
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:36 AM |
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rules unfortunately are a fact of life. this forum has grown beyond the casual meeting place where everyone knew each personally and didn't take
offence unnecessarily. there are plenty of people on here who have never met each other and the one-dimensional nature of this type of communication
often makes it easy to take comments the wrong way.
you've also attracted a lot of companies that make their living from the vw community. as an individual i can cope with crap being directed to me
as an individual, however any comments directed at my business that have the potential to impact my livelihood (and my ability to provide for my
family) i would take more seriously, as the consequences are obviously more serious.
the mods and admins on this forum are doing a great job in keeping this forum going and growing. i can't see that they would delete or alter any
posts for no reason, and i think they have already shown a very responsible and moderate approach.
i also don't believe they should be held liable for any comments posted by members, however i would hope that they would act sensibly, as they
have done in the past, to manage any weirdness - take it offline and help the parties involved resolve their problems in private.
someone mentioned in a previous post that no site in australia has been sued yet - yet is the operative word, and i wouldn't want this forum to
be the precedent.
to those that don't like the rules and disclaimers, i suggest getting over it, in the best interest of the forum. if you can't get over it
then suggest a sensible alternative - all i've read so far is criticism without any constructive alternatives offered
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hool
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:38 AM |
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optus abused staff?? now i find that hard to believe!!
hehehe!
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:59 AM |
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Not quite!
The help desk is manned by various itinerants like backpackers, etc. They get a free dial in account for some reason, which also has no restrictions
like time outs or download limits, or similar.
Many chose to share details of the account inappropriately. We had to make sure that staff weren't letting their accounts being abused.
The SQL query for that was a bit of a nightmare, and took a while to run.
Also, hool, thanks for the feedback. I've seen some - in my opinion borderline - posts about the rare cars you have available for purchase, and I
appreciate you not taking the matter in the wrong way.
Andrew
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hool
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 01:11 AM |
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so the staff actually abused optus - well done! (i don't like their door to door sales people very much...)
as for the comments about our cars, they're to be expected - i'd hate to live in a world where everyone had the same opinion! most of the
comments are now water under the bridge anyway
good luck with your current tribulations, you're doing well!
julian
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lugnuts
A.k.a.: Mike
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 04:23 AM |
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Just look at the BIG PICTURE and stop whining about the fine print,if people cant play with a few simple rules and the majority can then the minority
can POQ.I dont think some people realise just how fragile our forum is and how quickly it could disappear,if the few people that are running this
forum tossit in whose gunna step up hmmmmm yeah thats what i thought.Disclaimer:these ramblings are entirely my own,and if you dont like it then you
can just go and have a nice day.:P |
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Spook
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 04:55 AM |
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For the last time my beef is not with the lost nudity.
It is the principle.
That a decision made by the entire forum(at the time) was overturned by one man with no discussion whatsoever.
Subject matter is irrelevant. It should never have been done that way.
That he gained support for it after the event is of no consequence.
It was wrong & will always remain wrong.
To the matter at hand;
From what I can see Andrew, if we must have rules, you only need paragraph 2- the views are not that of the forum, paragraph 6 - you are responsible
for what you say, the last paragraph & the copyright bit.
The rest of it is to wide open.
For example; Fatboy has obviously found my last post on this subject objectionable.
Had this been the 6th of July instead of June would that post be removed?
If not, why not?
Is he not a reasonable person?
Can you see what I'm getting at??
The idea of a forum is a place of open discussion & debate.
Now a debate by definition needs 2 OPPOSING sides.
For those of you who haven't been around long, we have had some humdingers.
But how can you have a debate if one, or both, sides have the others posts removed because it's objectionable, harrassing, inacurate?
For those shaking their head, 12 months ago someone from the forum getting sued was hilarious.
I don't hear anyone laughing now.
I've asked you to define objectionable, now the rule says "etc".
That doesn't exactly narrow the field Andrew.
A post that is complained about will be removed if you or another moderator deem it necessary.
Are you going to explain why it was or was not removed?
Aren't you going to insult the member who either posted or asked for the removal?
Isn't that harrassment?
It's to broad, & to leave it broad like that is to leave it open to abuse. Best to leave it out altogether.
By all means keep the disclaimers, but lose the rest of it..........
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 06:54 AM |
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Simple reason why no sites have yet been successfully sued for libel yet in Australia. As publishers they do the simple thing and publish a
retraction. The publishers don't loose anything from doing that and if the original poster doesn't do the same they go to court.
And yes this has happened - several times.
By the way. Truth might be a defence in SA it isn't in NSW, VIC actually the majority of places. Defamation laws are state laws. In NSW truth
& proof are not always a valid defence.
Gutnick Vs Dow Jones gives us a good example of why we have to be especially carefull. If a libellous piece is seen somewhere, or could be seen
somewhere defamation proceedings can be listed in that place. Hence they go to where the law best suits them. Dow Jones (a U.S. company) published an
article. Gutnick didn't like it. It was found that there are about 300 licences in Victoria that could have been used to look at the article.
That's 300 chances - not 300 people saw it (we have over 1000 chances). The case was heard here. The courts ruled that it is published whereever
it can be read.
By the way... even newspapers/television etc use the waiver/disclaimer - and guess what? They always still get the arse end of the proceedings. Unless
they do the simple retraction and then leave the author to fight there own battles....
***So if you want to use the forum - follow the rules.***
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57kombi
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 11:42 AM |
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Why cant you people get it.
It wasnt about the nudity it was the fact that one person decided what the rest can or cant see.
That is what spook is on about
We dont need nudity on this site . but it was used as an example.
Just put a disclaimer on the beginning of the site and post what ever you want.
If people dont want to view it , they dont open it,
A forum is about discussion, now some people want to force their point of view on others by deleting posts without giving anyone a chance to
comment.
P
Andrew please name the parties involved in this dispute, It is not illegal to do that and you will not be sued.
Just stick with the disclaimer and lets get back to using the forum for what Jim intended it for.
To Discuss and make comment about Volkswagens(this name is used with out the authorirty of VW.ag, Volkswagen America or any other affiliation of
Volkswagen)
do we really have to go the way of some other sites.
Cheers
Dave
Again it is just my opinion and open to interpretation if you dont like my view, who cares as it is mine and you cant take it away.
:jesus:jesus
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 12:58 PM |
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The most recent action is between DakDat and CBB. That is an on-going matter between them, and I will not comment on it further.
Gratifyingly, we were notified late last night via e-mail that CBB are not going to sue Aussieveedubbers, or Brad, Jim or myself, and will be
receiving the notification in writing soon. Personally, I am much relieved that Brad's and my efforts to resolve this issue (including this
thread) have come to this (in my view) successful outcome. One less thing to worry about.
However, there have been other legal threats in the last month or two (think of the 1916 threads), and I want examples like these and any future
threats against us to stop, or at least be minimized to those where we actually have something to answer for.
I am all for a simplified version or bullet points that is in even more plain English than the current one... as long as it covers our collective
petards. However, the simpler we make it, the more open it will be to interpretation as we remove conditionals, which works against Spook's
requests to make it tighter as to what may be deleted.
Andrew
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 01:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 57kombi
Why cant you people get it.
It wasnt about the nudity it was the fact that one person decided what the rest can or cant see.
That is what spook is on about
We dont need nudity on this site . but it was used as an example.
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It's not just an example. It's THE example as there are no others. I've apologised for it, we changed the way we do that now, and I
can't re-iterate this time and time again every time Spook selectively forgets about all the other times.
In that ONE incident, someone posted nudity. A few people (mostly women, but that's irrelevant) objected to this post, some of whom are very
active posters. We have over 40000 threads here, and probably we've received complaints on 10 or so threads. None of them as many as this one
thread. Without reference, I made the call to delete the image. It later turned out to be a problem with our hosting as well (we're not allowed
host nudity), so it became official policy regardless of whether I or anyone likes pr0n or not here. There are other arguments against nudity here,
too, such as no adult verification system, etc. But they're irrelevant in the face of our contractual obligations not to host nudie pics.
| Quote: | A forum is about
discussion, now some people want to force their point of view on others by deleting posts without giving anyone a chance to comment.
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As I've stated before, the practice we do at the moment is simple - we snaffle the post for further review and then we either put it back (rare)
or we keep it hidden if a majority of the mods think it's bad. But the rules need to cover our petards, so it's blanket.
| Quote: | do we really have to
go the way of some other sites.
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Yes, or we simply have to do as some of those other sites did - close down. I'm sorry we live in a country with rooted defamation laws and no
freedom of speech, but ...
Andrew
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XXX-1.8T
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 04:32 PM |
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can u please check ur u2u
concerning my group buys
cheers
:beer
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baybuscamperkid
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
prince of insufficient light, ruler of heck
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 04:37 PM |
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good work. if this is what is needed to keep an operation of this size going then go for it.
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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 kombi_kid
Super Moderator
Good Kid too many projects
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 05:01 PM |
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its shitty that the forum has had to come to this but its just following suit like every other bloody thing in australia know!!!!
i support any rules made and try my hardest not to break them!
but as the old saying goes " rules are there to be broken"
cheers
rhys
it aint just cool its aircool'd
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Adam_C
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 05:15 PM |
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Wouldnt a disclaimer such as
"all information posted on this messageboard is the opinion of the user who posted it and therefore the owners and operators shall not be held
responsible for information posted"
i have no problem wiyth the rules put foward but if something like that is legally sound and protects the board but leaves the user open to be held
for libel thatn i think it would be better.....
what do you think????
now to read the rest of this topic . . . . . . .
Adam
Adzslick@iprimus.com.au
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Adam_C
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 05:35 PM |
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I’d also like to add that these rules are needed to continue this forum and those who don’t like it will have to live with it coz without the
implication of these rules then we couldn’t continue using this site
With Australia being the most litigious country in the world I think better safe than sorry
Adam
Adzslick@iprimus.com.au
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pangalactic
A.k.a.: jeezus cheeses
Seriously Crusin Dubber
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 05:56 PM |
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ooh eer
I think i just cracked a nail whilst tapping away on my keyboard, anyone know a good lawyer ?
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BenettonVW
Super Administrator
AVD Forum Founder
Posts: 3125
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 07:23 PM |
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On a closing note, and a successful and happy tune, the Forum or admin won't be included in any legal action, and as Andrew said, thats all that
will be said about that.
Just whilst I am on the soapbox, I think it is very important with this respect issue, to take it quite seriously. Now I apologise in advance for
singling you out, but members such as lugnuts, please just think about what you are writing in regards to other members and criticism of their
comments and/ or opinions.
Comments like "Just look at the BIG PICTURE and stop whining about the fine print,if people cant play with a few simple rules and the majority
can then the minority can POQ." are just plain unneccessary. Sure we all think that from time to time, but it takes more thought to actually
decide not to do it. This is what I request. Alternatively, I agree with you on the point that the forum is fragile. Again, just making an example and
I apologise for singling you out.
Again, people like 57 Kombi, Spook, Baja Wes and so on have been here for virtually two years. TWO YEARS. Thats about 22 months longer than some of
you, so lets show a little bit of respect, and more so respect for their opinions and knowledge. |
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Spook
Custom Title Time!
Driving the 64 wheeler
Posts: 1168
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| posted on June 6th, 2003 at 08:18 PM |
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Andrew, it's open to interpretation now!!
Imagine, if you will, this scenario;
As of midnight on June 30, I click a yes button. OK.
I am now obligated that, henceforth, no post I put on this forum will, either intentionally or inadvertantly, criticise, alienate, discriminate,
harrass or otherwise offend, or be percieved to offend any one, or group, of the other 1100 odd members..... EVER!
That is what your asking for.
Now, I cannot & will not even attempt to garantee that. And I doubt anyone else could.
Because at the end of the day we do have over 1100 members & with the miracle of DNA we are all entirely different.
The down side of that is what is offensive is soley up to the individual.
That can range from you basic FO with knobs, to commenting on the worst paint colour you've ever seen- only to find out another member has just
spent 5K getting their car sprayed in that colour.
This person then objects to this post & the moderator is obliged to remove it, because if he/she doesn't, they have just deemed the
complainant to be not a reasonable person. Which I would see as an even graver insult.
And again Andrew, this is what is being proposed.
Which moderator do you think is so omniscient that they know what is or is not offensive to each & every one of 1100 people?
What you are proposing is unworkable.
I can give you a moral dillema, & it's a true story.
A guy once asked where he could get a 15 window deluxe splt.
Brad made a smartarse comment about it.
Brad knew it was just a shot, I knew, Jim knew & most of the rest of us at the time knew.
This guy didn't! He spat the dummy at Brad, then Jim spat the dummy at him.
He aint ever been back.
Here's a puzzle for you. Had these rules been in force then, would you have had a moderator remove the posts of, not one but two administrators
& apologise to a newbie??
This is the reality of what your proposing.
It would be good for everyone to agree on everything, we'd have world peace by tea time tomorrow.
But Utopia only exists in the minds of poets.
As I've said I fully agree with individual blame & absolution of the forum & affiliates.
But there are just too many variables to try to "legislate"(for want of a better word) against members differences. & the more members
the more variables you get.
[Edited on 6-6-2003 by Spook]
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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