| [ Total Views: 6029 | Total Replies: 132 | Thread Id: 75230 ] |
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 LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 10th, 2009 at 10:39 PM |
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whats the cost to benefit ratio?
insurance coverage?
engineering approval costs?
did Mike drive the beetle to warwick or haul it up with a dirty carbon producer?
battery warranty life?
These questions are all relevent, but if that is the road you want to travel, then good luck and post up details regularly.
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 12:51 AM |
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what bout the gvm with the batteries in it?
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 08:09 AM |
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Here's another place that does Volkswagen electric conversions:
http://www.e-volks.com/about.html
Yes I remember the VW Elektro Transporters (1975). The batteries were mounted on a slide-out platform mounted in the cargo area (van) or under-tray
storage locker (pickup). The whole battery package could be slid out and removed for easy replacement. They were built as a fleet trial but the costs,
weight (850kg) and range limitations brought about an end to the project. Still, nothing wrong with trying new things. VW also tried the engine
'stop-start' technology on the Eco-Golf, which could save 15-20% on fuel in normal driving and sometimes up to 60% in stop-start traffic, but they
don't do that any more either. VW recently built a 'Twin Drive' Golf, petrol-electric, but not really a 'hybrid':
http://www.carcentral.com.au/200806271721/hybrid/electric/vw-enters-plug-in-h...
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cbbvw
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 09:08 AM |
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Hi all Mike from CBB
The electric car we took to Warrick was on a car carrier along with 6 other of my customers cars, the reason is that it is simply not viable to drive
any electric only car such a long distances.
It was built to drive to and from work a total distance on 22 klm along with short local commuting. Horses for courses.
After Andrew told me of this post yesterday I felt I should reply to some of the less than positive comments made here about electric vehicles in
general and towards the green beetle we spent 4 years developing and getting RTA approval for.
The reason I decided to follow through with this and many more electric vehicles to come is my view on what can be done to lessen the impact I have on
the environment for myself but more importantly for my 4 children and their children my grandchildren to come.
I believe that everyone should have at least one electric car in the family for the use of daily city style commuting of up to 180klm single commute
without charging. The reason being is that 90% of our emissions come from short daily commuting to and from work. How many of you spend up to an hour
sitting in traffic with the car idling away. Take a drive through any city tunnel and look at the plume of pollution that results from the vehicles
passing through it then try to imagine the rest of the vehicles around doing the same. As for the comments that electricity comes from dirty coal
plants I don't think anyone has really done their home work to see how little power is used in the charging of the batteries. That is a "lets jump
on the bandwagon of negativity" argument. We should instead be putting pressure on the politicians for more greener supplies of electricity. How many
of you could save power by shutting down your computer at night or turn of all unused lighting around the house. We all want 24hr hot water and
heating/ cooling against the elements, so on, so on . Do you have gas heating and cooking hats of to those who do.
Are we going to replace petrol, diesel, lpg power cars ? No way. It just is not possible at present or even in the near future. Electric vehicles have
there place along side oil based vehicles.
Batteries are a whole topic of their own. I decided after years of studying battery make up to use a sealed lead acid battery which contains no
liquids. It is the Genesis battery designed for electric vehicles. It is completely safe, non hazards, maintenance free battery which is recyclable.
They are reasonable priced and deliver quiet good performance. Yes there are exciting developments in battery technology with the lithium ion and
lithium polymer batteries that are now more popular amongst the electric car associations. They are presently quite expensive and a relatively new to
the market, but given time I feel they should prove themselves as a viable and hopefully more cost effective type of battery for electric vehicle. We
have fitted 200amp hours of the Thunder Shy Lithium Ion battery to a 74 bay which should return around 180 - 200 klm, the same batteries in 160amp
hours have produced 150klm with still more in the tank in a Toyota Camry. I ask all my customers to be brutally honest with me when they ask about
electric conversions as to how far they want to drive the car on a single charge. This will either result in them being told an electric conversion is
not for them, or ultimately decide the battery which would be required to make the conversion work for them.
To answer the question posted above about GVM which I think should actually be more a question about Tare weight. The electric conversion on the green
beetle pictured in this post came in on the weight bridge 80kg over a standard beetle tare weight which when you think about it is one passenger. You
need to take into consideration the fact that we have removed a whole engine and replaced it with a 48 kg motor, we have removed the starter, clutch
and flywheel, petrol tank and fuel etc etc. We used a 14.9kg battery X 12 = 178.8kg. the battery pack is 42amp hours at 144 volts. It delivers 38klm
drive on one charge which takes 2.75 hours to fully charge.
I am a little surprised at the negative comments from what I though very more intelligent members of this forum. In saying this I am not saying that
you have to agree with my comment everyone has their own ideas it is just a shame when people don't think or base there comments on fact or reason.
But I guess in a world that is skeptical of change and full of those that would rather argue for the sake of arguing rather than doing I should not be
surprised.
My views are mine, I try to base them on actual events I have witness or tried myself. I only believe 50% of things I read in magazines or view
through the media. I have to completely convince myself of the facts before I take them on. And Yes I can be wrong too.
I hope this helps clear up some of the miss informed information presented in this post. Please feel free to ask any other questions about electric
vehicles and I will do my best to factually answer them for you. I am not an over night electric vehicle professional, I am still learning, resourcing
and visiting new areas in this field, i think it is a real shame that more are not.
Looking forward to a exciting future.
Regards
Mike
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silver
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 10:35 AM |
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Hi Mike I was hoping this post would prompt a reply from you
you may remember me from our brief discussion at the shootout (i was the good looking guy)
I think my next step in this is to come over for a visit and take a ride in your beetle.
I am interested in some performance figures from your beetle, and can we with either a bigger motor or more batteries make one really zoom if it
doesn't already
This post has raised some negative comments,( which are appreciated as this was my intent with the topic) but they seem baseless and ill informed and
have not really given any reasons for my not going ahead with this conversion
I think it will be cool
I think it will be fun
and it will certainly be different
I like different!!!!!!!
Keeping it real !
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notchy
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 01:51 PM |
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Silver
I was fortunate enough to be asked by Mike to drive his electric car to the "shootout" last Nov. It was parked at my business for a couple of days
prior to the show and i was able to have a few drives around the local area. All our regular customers who i called in to see where very curious about
it and where really blown away by the overall concept. Show day arrived and along with my brothers beetle and fathers Volksrod, we cruised from
Ingleburn to The show. This meant a trip along the highway and let me tell you cruisin' at the speed limit was effortless. The car accelerates really
well and has no trouble maintaining speed. Having fun, as you do, i gave her a little more pedal and managed to pull away.
Me being the bonehead i am sometimes, i forgot to charge the car the night before the show. We managed to get there on the day pushing the batteries
limits. However, after charging her back up throughout the day getting home was a breeze.
Mike has installed a battery system with the range it has, as it suits his requirements. If i hadn't forgotten to charge it up we would have arrived
no problems.
When i was driving the car it was fantastic, listening to the tyres on the road and wind in the window. I had an absolute ball driving it and would
love to again anytime Mike needs a driver. I have driven a variety of VW's in the past, and have to say that was one of my most enjoyable
experiences.
It must be pretty cool when you have to struggle with the wife about who gets to drive the electric car.
If you are seriously thinking about doing the conversion, arrange a time to see Mike,Go for a run in it (you will be surprised at how much pull it
has), give him as much info as you can about what your intended uses are and desired range, so he can offer you the best suited battery and motor
system.
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silver
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 02:41 PM |
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Thanks for your reply notchy, it is great to hear feedback from someone who has driven one
I am getting tired of all the noise from the 1776, don't get me wrong it has great performance but this car is a city driver, sitting in traffic on a
40 degree day with the thump thump thump of the motor gets very tiresome. 1/2 of all my daily trip time is spent stationary
I am very serious about the conversion and I doubt I do more than 60 kms a day, on the weekends trips can be as low as 5 kms
having said that I would like to have optimum range and performance. the current range of 180klms is heaps
cheers Silver
Keeping it real !
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t2
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 03:38 PM |
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silver,
i am interested in your 1776 how much you want for it???..send me a pm if interested
gravity wont get you high
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silver
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 03:48 PM |
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It will be going into my Splitty sorry mate
Keeping it real !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 05:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by cbbvw
the battery pack is 42amp hours at 144 volts. It delivers 38klm drive on one charge which takes 2.75 hours to fully charge.
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Mike,
I am not being negative, I am being realistic. So from what you say above you have 44amp hours at 144 volts which is 6.048kWh. That is what the
battery will deliver, it will take more to charge it as some energy is lost as heat during charging. But we'll say 6kWh to do 38km.
Coal fired power stations have emissions of about 1kg per kWh. So the carbon footprint of the 38km electric car drive is about 6kg.
The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.
A small efficient car like the VW bluemotion polo gets 99g/km, which is 3.7kg for the 38km.
My motorcycle that I ride to work is about the same as a bluemotion polo, so my Petrol burning motorcycle is better for the environment than the coal
burning beetle.
I'm not being biased or negative, just looking at the facts. Let me know if I've misunderstood any of your numbers.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 05:53 PM |
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I noticed there was a complete absence of $ costs of this conversion. If there is to be a completely honest response to the questions then I think
this needs to be provided for a fair and accurate cost to benefit decision to be made. Everyone highlights the cheap recharge costs but not the
startup/maintenence costs. I do not consider these to be "negitive responses" but genuine questions that need to be answered in a trueful accurate
manner. The easist way to cast dispersion on someone who does not see things the way you do is to class them as "negitive" or they have an
"attitude". This requires no proof and casts them apart from the "true believers". All political groups start this way.
my2c
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 06:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
From birth to death a Prius has the same carbon footprint as a Hummer. The battery manufacture uses toxic and rare chemicals.
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And an existing car has a far far smaller "footprint."
Even is left on "dirty petrol".
The largest part of a cars so called footprint is the manufacture and exporting process.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Where do you think the electricity comes from in Australia? It comes from dirty coal fired power stations.
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Not all, and as we move further into the future even less will come from this source.
This is why electric cars, even though they have been around in small number for around 100 years, are called emergent technology. They are a stepping
stone and a starting place.
Did you know that one Google search uses more power (and more emissions) than a 30 mile drive in a car? How efficient is your time on the web?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Although it might have shown the prius is better, it seems plainly obvious to me that a fuel efficient car like a diesel VW Golf is going to be far
far better than the Prius. And the golf doesn't burn coal.
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The same studies that brought about that paper and others like it also show that an existing car, using its existing technology and fuels, over the
next 30 years is far far better than even the Prius.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
But we all drive old cars, well any pollution that was made in my old cars manufacture is long past, from now on they only get greener.
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Right on... that is the whole point of converting older cars. They are inherently "greener" because they already exist. Converting to lower
polluting drive lines means they become even more "green" over the next stage of its use/life.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by silver
1/2 of all my daily trip time is spent stationary
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And an electric car is expending no energy when it's stationary!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Coal fired power stations have emissions of about 1kg per kWh. So the carbon footprint of the 38km electric car drive is about 6kg.
The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.
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So even ignoring the improved efficiencies that are being achieved and the even greater ones that are coming - you are, in fact, confirming that a
converted old, existing car is more efficient over the next 10-30 years than a new modern car.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
A small efficient car like the VW bluemotion polo gets 99g/km, which is 3.7kg for the 38km.
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But the manufacture and export of said vehicle more than negates the difference. Thousands of litres of diesel are used just to move a ship the
distance each of those cars travels in an average trip.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
My motorcycle that I ride to work is about the same as a bluemotion polo, so my Petrol burning motorcycle is better for the environment than the coal
burning beetle.
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You are leaving out the oil you replace, the contaminants other than carbon emissions that come out of the tailpipe etc etc.
The point you are missing, apparently for sake of argument alone, is that electric conversions are not only reducing future output, they are recycling
the bulk of an existing vehicle without the wasted energy of smelting to make new panels and components, the manufacture and export of a new
vehicle.
The point of an electric conversion is to extend the working life on an existing vehicle, while reducing its output/impact on the environment and the
best thing of all, making people aware that non internal combustion drive lines are viable.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:02 PM |
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"The point of an electric conversion is to extend the working life on an existing vehicle, while reducing its output/impact on the environment and
the best thing of all, making people aware that non internal combustion drive lines are viable."
Good Point and the older the Beetle the more carbon credits you should have in your Green bank. But still there needs to be a REAL conversion cost
supplied to make an informed decision to proceed.
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:08 PM |
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I never said anything about the life cycle of an electrically converted existing beetle. All your points for an electric conversion could be applied
to a biodiesel conversion.
My point has been that electric cars are by no means clean. Some people say electric cars are emissions free but they are wrong with the current
electricity source.
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silver
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DUBB61
I noticed there was a complete absence of $ costs of this conversion.
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Thats because its not the issue here, its should "I" go electric not should you go electric
lets just say I can afford it.
Keeping it real !
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silver
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:13 PM |
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I am not doing to be green
I want to do it because its fun
Keeping it real !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by silver
I want to do it because its fun
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Mate, that's all the reason you need. If you think it will be fun, then go for it!
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja WesSome people say electric cars are emissions free but they are wrong with the current electricity source.
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In terms of how cars are technically measured (there is an Australian standard for it) they are 100% emission free. So the claim by anyone with an
electric vehicle is entirely accurate.
The whole "carbon footprint" argument is a diversion, and anyway, it is shown scientifically that a converted electric car is far superior to
anything else on offer as a whole of life equation. For the person walking their dog beside the street, or the hippy riding his bike - tail pipe
emissions are the beginning and end of their concerns.
Instead of trying to argue to the nth degree the total intricacies of whole life emissions, look objectively at the achievements of all the people who
are doing or buying converted vehicles.
Each week they drive their "dirty coal powered" electric car (even though the balance of sources for power will be entirely different in 10 years
time) they are putting less shit in the air directly. That's what is important to most of them.
And like silver has said. It's not all about being green.
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darren-h
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 07:57 PM |
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Electric certainly has some merit, not just for the enviro reasons but the power (torque) reasons as well.Battery technology is advancing quite
rapidly, which i hope will make this form of motivation a lot more viable!!
67' deluxe
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 08:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by darren-h
Electric certainly has some merit, not just for the enviro reasons but the power (torque) reasons as well.
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The torque is amazing! It's hard to know until you drive one - the same power is there from 5rpm to 5000rpm.
I probably responded a little harshly above, but what people have to realise, instead of being holier and greener than thou, is that developing and
perfecting vehicles now with electric drive is getting the cart in place for when the wheels are ready.
If people don't do it now, if they get rubbished and distracted before the big advances in "green" power generation then you are gonna have to wait
a long time for the vehicles to be available to exploit those energy sources.
I can't see it as anything but shortsighted to argue about the (current) sources of electricity instead of participating in the development of
getting things ready now...
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 08:29 PM |
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I and others don't think electric cars are the answer. Neither does Honda apparently;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw
Although hydrogen fueled cars are not without their drawbacks either.
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Grey 57
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 08:33 PM |
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This is a very interesting thread. I have been thinking about sometime down the track converting the Type 34 to electric power. Seemed like a good
thing to do to prolong its life. Lots of stuff written here has reinforced this thinking for me.
My only concern is battery life and disposal. They say that a Prius battery will need to be replaced after 5 to 10 years. Is that true?
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 08:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Grey 57
They say that a Prius battery will need to be replaced after 5 to 10 years. Is that true?
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I know someone that works for Toyota. Head office. They have only replaced a few batteries in the 16 years they have had the Prius in Australia. One
recently in a car that has done over 300,000 ks.
I'll see if i can get the full figures from him again but I'm pretty sure there's only been 3 or so replacements.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 09:24 PM |
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I understand the Tesla Roadster uses several thousand Lithium-ion laptop batteries. I just hope they aren't the same ones that got recalled for
catching fire, or the crap one in my HP notebook that is rooted after only 18months! 
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justbrett
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 09:43 PM |
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A few links you might find useful if you're looking for info on electric conversions:
11 second electric datto, massive page that takes ages to load but worth the wait if you're interested in building a quick electric vehicle
www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php
lots of electric vw's www.evalbum.com/type/VOLK
electric vehicle discussion forum, i doubt there's a question about electric vehicles that hasn't been asked on this list www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
Cheers
Brett
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vwpizza
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 10:06 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by silver
I have been looking for a while at the option of converting my 66 beetle to electric
I spoke to Mike from CBB about his conversion at the shootout and I really like the whole idea of being electric
so
Have you ridden in Mikes ?
would you do it?
Why shouldn't I
I mainly use the car for city travel
I believe there is a discount on the registration, and some city councils allow free parking at meters.....
I currently have 1776 with 110 cam and 36 dells
What do you think???????????
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Gday Silver,
I can give you my answers to two of your questions.
First, yes I have been in Mikes Beetle and I have also taken it out for a good 30 min cruise in and around Penrith.the car drives great with plenty of
torque, very quick off the lights.I have had it on the freeway for a short distance and had no problem with speed it goes very very well.
Second,yes I think I would convert one of my early cars to electric,as I live and work local it would suit my needs.
I also see Mikes Beetle nearly every day of the week passing my shop or in the carpark of the shopping centre. it gets more attention then my wifes
Golf ever would, its a great looking car that is well put together..
Ill keep out of who's footprints who's...
cheers Dean
if it looks like crap smells like crap then guess what!!!!!
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silver
Veteran Volks Folk
Dangerous when poked
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 10:53 PM |
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Thanks dean
good feedback , I will be going for it I reckon
I cant wait for a drive in Mikes Beetle
I just finished reading the plasma boy link brett posted Wow That datsun is very quick.. electric drag cars hmmm?????
Keeping it real !
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volumex
Officially Full-On Dubber
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| posted on March 11th, 2009 at 11:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.
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Where did you find that one?
I found this reference
(page 39) from the Department of the Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts that shows in 2007 Australian cars had an average of 226 g/km in
2007.
Note that the average is usually the combined case, whereas a more equitable comparison may be to use urban only as converted electric cars would be
predominately used for the daily commute.
If some or all of the electricity was derived from renewable sources then it would also effect the comparison.
As usual, statistics can be skewed to prove whatever you want (remember that Goodies episode where Graeme Garden said that 9 out of 10 doctors said
that if you didn't [something] then an elephant would fall on your head)
If you were going to do (or rubbish someone who was considering) a conversion based solely on hard numbers, then you could find sufficient research to
support whichever side of the fence you want to sit. This sort of conversion isn't about numbers, it is about a lifestyle choice based on minimising
your personal carbon footprint. I applaud those with the courage, drive, tenacity and money to take this step. I believe that in the future they
will be able to sleep soundly knowing that they did all they could to minimize the climate problems that we are going to face in 25/50/100 years time.
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kombivw
A.k.a.: David
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 05:43 AM |
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Silver Been watching this thread and keeping quiet as not got any advice to provide anyway. But it has turned into a great thread with lots of great
points! You better go ahead with this and keep us all informed step by step. I may even do the same to my bug at the finish.
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LUFTMEISTER
Veteran Volks Folk
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 06:01 AM |
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I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is
overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia
went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers
starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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