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 1500S
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| posted on August 24th, 2010 at 08:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratbug
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1500S
Pulling up on the lever is a big mistake! If you place it so you can stand on the bar it's safer and the wheel is being pushed to the ground rather
than lifting it off the ground thus with a couple of chocks it's locked preventing rotation whilst undoing the nut.
In many cases, veedubbers are now suffering from previous owners as well as misinformation by believing you need a 2 metre bar to jump on or a FB
hammer to tighten the nuts up. Over tightening is just as bad as not tight enough.
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I was pushing down, pulling up is just asking for a hospital visit. it was lifting the front of the car off the groound. Also i didnt mention the car
had no body, just the chassis.
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Always be clear on anything we say! 
Ratbug said:
"I had 2m of leverage on one of my axle nuts once, and was just lifting up the whole car..."
If you were undoing as I suggested it couldn't possibly lift the front of the car remembering it is the wheel being locked by the chocks with no
mention of handbrake on or in gear to damage brakes or transmission.
In your case you should have had the wheel off and a piece of angle or flat about 1 metre long bolted to the drum with two wheel bolts to prevent
rotation.
DH
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VolksVair
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| posted on August 24th, 2010 at 09:09 PM |
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Hi All, 35 years back I welded a 36mm X 3/4 drive socket to a 4 foot length of pipe. never had any issues with removing flywheel gland nuts &
axle nuts. must admit, in the early days. before I got a feel for things, I did snap one or 3 gland nuts whilst installing them, but luckily, the
gland nut thread never bottoms out in the crank, so you could remove the broken gland thread with your finger. I still have this bar today.
Adventure Before Dimentia
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 24th, 2010 at 09:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1500S
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.
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You need a 3/4" drive one to make it easy and yes, give a hit on the end of the socket where the square drive fits. The bit of plate stops the
hammer damaging the socket. The socket will sit on the flange (washer) of the axle nut. A 3/4 bar also prevents the dreaded bending of the bar
under load. If you have no luck tonight you can have a loan of mine as well. Depends who is closer to you. I'm going Meadowbank way tomorrow
evening (about 3 pm) so could drop it somewhere for you or you can come over for a drive and pick it up after 5.30pm
DH
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just tried the hitting th socket trick and no cigar.
could i borrow that bar and socket pls? that would be great. I'll pm my address. if you could drop it in on the way to meadowbank that would be
awesome. I'll bring it back later.
Pete
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1500S
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| posted on August 24th, 2010 at 09:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1500S
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.
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You need a 3/4" drive one to make it easy and yes, give a hit on the end of the socket where the square drive fits. The bit of plate stops the
hammer damaging the socket. The socket will sit on the flange (washer) of the axle nut. A 3/4 bar also prevents the dreaded bending of the bar
under load. If you have no luck tonight you can have a loan of mine as well. Depends who is closer to you. I'm going Meadowbank way tomorrow
evening (about 3 pm) so could drop it somewhere for you or you can come over for a drive and pick it up after 5.30pm
DH
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just tried the hitting th socket trick and no cigar.
could i borrow that bar and socket pls? that would be great. I'll pm my address. if you could drop it in on the way to meadowbank that would be
awesome. I'll bring it back later.
Pete
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Will do Pete. Got your address now and not out of the way too far. I'll pm my phone number.
DH
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blkovl
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| posted on August 24th, 2010 at 10:37 PM |
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Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon
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VolksVair
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| posted on August 25th, 2010 at 07:34 PM |
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Ebay item number 200487860683 buy it now $80 usd. not far from my shipper, can arrange shipping with my stuff to Geelong Victoria, might cost
you $20 to ship here plus postage costs to my shipper ( maybe 8 bucks usd) if you or a member wants it, just let me know cheers Frank
Adventure Before Dimentia
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 25th, 2010 at 10:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by blkovl
Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon
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Hi Brendon, the back driver's side slave cyl is leaking and I can't drive it but thanx for the offer. Got something else to try on friday and I'll
see how I go from there.
BTW, have to say a big thanx to 1500s. the man is GOLD. 
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1500S
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| posted on August 26th, 2010 at 08:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
| Quote: | Originally
posted by blkovl
Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon
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Hi Brendon, the back driver's side slave cyl is leaking and I can't drive it but thanx for the offer. Got something else to try on friday and I'll
see how I go from there.
BTW, have to say a big thanx to 1500s. the man is GOLD.
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Just an update for Pete! Will be interesting to try this one to see if things move. The last try was with a commercial bar from a small mandrel
press but of Chinese quality unknown. Obviously they used mild steel as the 20 mm dia bar bent. We now have a new one from 4140 high tensile steel
at 25mm dia so we'll see if this one will shift things.
One does wonder what the difficulty is and if it's because of over tightening by the assembler (not Pete!!) or if in fact some chemical locker has
been used.
Will drop it down sometime tomorrow Pete. The apprentices needed a real job for a change today!!
DH
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 26th, 2010 at 08:45 PM |
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is that a challenge. see if I can bend it? 
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1500S
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| posted on August 26th, 2010 at 09:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
is that a challenge. see if I can bend it?
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DH
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Newt
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 12:04 AM |
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Is that still half inch drive? It wasnt until I went to a 3/4 inch drive that I stoped having problems.
Newt
It is as it is - If you didnt enjoy today, you've missed the opportunity.
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1500S
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 07:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Newt
Is that still half inch drive? It wasnt until I went to a 3/4 inch drive that I stoped having problems.
Newt
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3/4". Been using the original socket for 40 + years but loaned the original bar with another single hex socket with a good Type 3 manual in the
early 80s and never got them back!
No doubt Pete will have a big  on his face when he gets home
from work rather than another  . Incidently, an estimated 350-400 ft
lbs was needed to crack the nut! A little overkill when originally tightened! Remember VW thought that 217 ft lbs was enough when they designed
that part!
DH
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 03:00 PM |
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mate you are a legend. looking forward to having a proper chat.
BTW, people, what 1500s has done is what this forum should be about all the time. HELPING one another. Think about it. 
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byronmcmanus59
A.k.a.: Jono punton
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 06:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Thinker
most engineering supply companies (blackwoods) carry them they are call a torque multiplier. they dont look anything like the one from CIP1.
they are not cheap but if you are willing to spend the money you can get them to do up around 4000 ft/lb if that dosnt undo the axel nut then it was
never going to come off
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Got it in one, screw having a four foot breaker bar, i always use a torque multiplier. makes life so much easier.
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1500S
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 09:39 PM |
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I think we've achieved a good outcome here by saving Pete quite a few dollars. By purchasing a torque multiplier, you have to weigh up the cost to
the number of times you can use it. To hire one will get the job done but it's still cost $50 basically for someone else to supply the tool plus
the time involved in picking up and returning. In the fitting trade we always teach/learn different ways to tackle a problem. In most cases we
try to retain components without damage or in harsher words, butchery. In saying that, there is always that last resort of splitting the nut as all
other methods have failed. With splitting the nut using a chisel there is always the danger of damaging a bearing with the high number of impacts
required to do the job. You can also get a commercial nut splitter but then again cost outweighs usage. Then there's old friend angle grinder
there as well.
It's ended up with no cost and no damaged components so the repair bill is now only for a slave cyl. The main reason here is that Pete has given
the area he lives (now closer at Rope's Crossing!!) so it makes it easy for other Veedubbers who live nearby to lend a hand. Wouldn't it be great
if everyone gave that information in their profile!!
DH
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on August 27th, 2010 at 09:58 PM |
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Hi
I hope there is good ending to this story!
The moral is don't try and undo an axle nut or flywheel unless your using a 3/4 socket & bar and big pipe, 1/2 inch might be fine in
circumstances where everything is normal.
The 3/4 bar I use just has a right angle bend on it, as in non sliding T bar, I feel that these are stronger.
Steve
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 28th, 2010 at 10:06 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1500S
To be a bit more metric ( but not totally as I haven't got a book in front of me with the Nm settings), if you weigh in at 100kg (220lb),
Torque/Force = Distance then 217/220 = 11.8 inches or near enough to 300mm. Place your big hoof 300mm out from the centre of the axle and stand on the
bar and you have the correct torque................ but all you mathematicians knew all that didn't you. Believe me, you can't argue with with physics and mechanics as long as you take into account the
variables, as in the case of threaded fasteners, FRICTION.
Hope this helps!
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well, I just undid the other side for good measure. I'd say it was 3 x as tight as it needed to be. The worry with this is that not only is it near
impossible to undo, there is a real chance of tensile failure.
About 15 years ago, one of the then contributors to fast4s, a VW enthusiast posted a pic of his back axle nut complete with the thread still in it.
His diagnosis was overtightening and you could see it from the grain failure patterns on the face of the shaft where it had broken away. With enough
torque, the humungous castle nut on VW axles is literally strong enough to break the axle.  I've seen similar issues countless times on a US offroad forum I'm on.
SO take it easy with your 2m long levers. Levers are supposed to make it easier to do things up, not make it more expensive to fix down the track.
Again, huge thanx to 1500s.
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1303Steve
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| posted on August 28th, 2010 at 10:59 AM |
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Hi Peter
When you do it all up again, take the time to calculate the weight your putting into X amount of bar. I have 3/4 tension wrench and I can do my axle
nuts to the correct torque with one hand, that would demonstrate the over tightening that usually occurs.
If you want to borrow my tension wrench let me know, I'm in Lugarno near Hurstville
Steve
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 28th, 2010 at 11:18 AM |
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thanx steve. My 2foot 1/2" long breaker bar and me (97kg) should do it with ease... and without overtightening. In fact, come to think of it, I've
got a torque wrench that would probably do it too.
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Thinker
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| posted on August 28th, 2010 at 03:37 PM |
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if you do the calcs 97kg x 2.205=213.885 lbs x 2.5 ft = 534.7125 ft/lbs
you can over tighten with out even trying.
if you use a 1 ft bar with you on it you will get it bang on.
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pete wood
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| posted on August 29th, 2010 at 09:47 AM |
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yep, that's what I'm gonna do.
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