| [ Total Views: 2819 | Total Replies: 75 | Thread Id: 85949 ] |
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 Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 11:27 AM |
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What diff ratio and 4th gear ratio did the 76 bug come out with ?? That will give you a clue 
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 11:58 AM |
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Volkswagen/Porsche Salzburg (Austria) built 'factory' VW Superbug rally cars in the 1970s. They used mildly overbored stock cylinders (85.9mm) and a
stock crank to make 1599cc. Dry sump, twin 46IDA Webers, big intake valves and stock exhaust valves (!), porting and a secret cam produced 126 bhp at
6,000 rpm. They fitted a 5-speed Porsche 914 gearbox, turned backwards obviously.
It used a 4.429 diff with 80% limited slip. Their ratios, and speeds achieved in gear at 6,500 rpm with 165-15 tyres, were:
1st: 3.091 (58 km/h)
2nd: 2.189 (82 km/h)
3rd: 1.684 (107 km/h)
4th: 1.318 (137 km/h)
5th: 1.040 (174 km/h)
This setup worked very well so this would make a good starting point. Read more about the Salzburg rally Beetles here:
http://www.rallybugs.com/engtrans.htm
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dogo
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 01:17 PM |
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What about power pulleys? Don't they slow the fan down? wouldn't that make a difference to cooling! Just a thought.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 01:51 PM |
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The Salzburg Rally team did not use power pulleys on their full-on race cars. They used the stock steel VW pulley. They knew what they were doing -
these engines made over 120 hp from just 1600cc.
See how they also used the stock VW muffler and heater boxes. They spent their money on parts that worked - check out that triple-gear dry sump oil
pump! - not on chromie parts that do nothing.
Yes power pulleys slow down the fan (and the generator). Not what you want to do.
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Joel
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 02:11 PM |
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Power pulleys dont belong on street engines, theyre fine on the strip where the engine revs beyond what the stock fan was designed for but a street
engine will run hotter and the power they actually free up isnt even noticable
A mates 70 bug had one and finding the right size belt was a mission
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 02:34 PM |
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Quite right Joel. To do it properly, you would carefully braze or weld the fan tabs so it can't come apart, then use the stock steel pulley and rev
it as much as you want. Gene Berg used to sell stock welded fans. And you can use stock VW belts.
Power pulleys belong in the box with the billet distributor clamps, transparent distributor caps, chrome generator pulleys, brightly coloured coils,
plastic heater hoses and all the other pretty bits that don't work as well as the stock VW parts.
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 07:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Keith Haeusler
Hi all,
This is my real life experience with taller top gear in a bug. In the early 90`s good mate had 68 bug, 2165cc,8.6:1 ida etc. Ran awesome. Never over
heated oil or heads.
Changed to irs, stock L box, still good albeit lost a little bit of zippy-ness. Broke box, fitted .82 top with 3.88. Engine always ran hot in 4th gear
and felt lazy.
Swap back to .93 top and problem went away.
I think the VW engineers knew what the score was.
Again, this is just what we found with this combo.
Regards, Keith
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good example keith, thanx
so have we actually sorted anything about final gearing with aircooled engines from this mess?
i think Matt summed it up in his first post and Keiths post shows good back to back tests for his combo
i have plenty of thoughts as to why i've got away with my gearing,as per a couple of mentions from the Daves and Joel........ just trying to sort
some time to write it up yet
did this one when Ct was choosing cams to show where this engine comes on song.......you can see it's well "in" @3000rpm and actually makes a shit
load of tourque at 2750rpm which works well with the "5th" i have......another 100rpm less at 100km/h would see wide open throttle on anything
steeper than a disabled wheelchair ramp.........now that would cause some heat (BTU's) in the heads all that fuel burning on climbs with no extra fan
speed 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYe5uZwxLgk
i hate this vid, sloppy changes blah blah, but easy to tell the car is not going to pull the 5th gear anywhere near as easy as the
"4th"...........perhaps having the ability to go back to this 4th gear is my saving grace from long pounding climbs with W.O.T in what would
normally be an "over geared" final drive ratio. i've pretty much only used the tall 5th for cruising as the gears before it provide ample fun and
speed for a buzz........yes it does run a tad cooler, HOWEVER on long climbs i would have to say it raises in temps quicker than it did with the old
gearbox.......hmmmmmmmmmm........time to shift down a gear, lucky there are 2 that will do cruising speed 
can't wait to get it on the road again, will refresh my memory and do some more vids.......hopefully run it at Wakefield to really test the theories
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 matberry
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 07:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Daimo found his ran cooler and got better economy.
And that was with a 0.82 fifth and 3.88.(way taller than the stock L-Bug 0.93)
I agree though that if you went too far, there may be issues.
I thought Daimos was going to be too tall, but he said it is great.
Mind you it has twice the stock power too.
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
After going for a spin in Daimos old bug last year, I gotta say that tranny is geared to perfection but Like Dave said his engine has the torque to
use it
expecting a stockish motor to run with the same setup would be kicking sqaure in the balls
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How true are these comments.
After seeing Daimo's gearing you would think it's a little tall, but the engine has such good power delivery down low, it certainly gets away with
it. A 1600 at 2800 rpm at 65mph would start to struggle because it's making less power at the lower rpm so more throttle is used and temps start to
rise, and remember fan speed is less too.
Good thread
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 07:40 PM |
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that's it Matt i truely believe my box would kill engines with anything less than my current one
......i'm a big believer in driving an engine to find it's personal REAL performance........maybe something for triebler to keep in mind for these
subie boxes of his
yep good thread, hope it continues
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Craig S
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 08:13 PM |
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After getting a little off track I'm pleased that this thread is turning interesting again
Would it be possible for someone to draw up a graph similar to Daimo's but using stock gear ratios (and tyre sizes) from an L Bug? At the moment I
have no idea what rpm I'm doing at 110km/h, but I know it's damn noisy compared to 90km/h 
I remember there was an article last year(?) in the Club VeeDub magazine that gave the formuals for working out such things using tyre size, gear
ratios and rpm.
Can anyone reproduce that?
It would also be possible if you swapped the x and y axis to overlay the above graph on a dyno graph, so that you can see where your engine power and
torque is in relation to your gear ratios. Would that be of any use???
Thanks
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 08:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gwendolyns Master
It would also be possible if you swapped the x and y axis to overlay the above graph on a dyno graph, so that you can see where your engine power and
torque is in relation to your gear ratios. Would that be of any use???
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now youre talking!
http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp
http://www.et-studios.com/motorsports/gears/gears.html
transfer to graph paper after working the gearing calculator
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Joel
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 08:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gwendolyns Master
Would it be possible for someone to draw up a graph similar to Daimo's but using stock gear ratios (and tyre sizes) from an L Bug? At the moment I
have no idea what rpm I'm doing at 110km/h, but I know it's damn noisy compared to 90km/h
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Hmmmm didnt i just use this photo in another thread on totally unrelated subject only a few mins ago
Thing to remember is stock engines were designed to run flat bickey
Even 36 years later if your tinwares all in check and timing and carb are tuned right it will crank along at 4000rpm all day long,
trust me my poor little 1600 did it across the middle of Aus 10 years ago in 35c heat
My stock Lbug tranny at 110 is spinning 3200rpm
at 4000rpm its doing arouind 140 from memory which last time i checked wasnt the speed limit
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vlad01
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 09:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
Quite right Joel. To do it properly, you would carefully braze or weld the fan tabs so it can't come apart, then use the stock steel pulley and rev
it as much as you want. Gene Berg used to sell stock welded fans. And you can use stock VW belts.
Power pulleys belong in the box with the billet distributor clamps, transparent distributor caps, chrome generator pulleys, brightly coloured coils,
plastic heater hoses and all the other pretty bits that don't work as well as the stock VW parts.
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Gene does still sell welded and balanced fans.
Power pulley do have their place. Idea behind them is to lower the ratio so that the fan doesn't over spin on high rpm engines and stall at something
like 9000 rpm with the standard v-belt.
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=19_494_2979&products_id=1254
71 notchback,
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Joel
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 09:27 PM |
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Don't place 100% faith in a welded fan, they still espload too,
just far less chance of it
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matberry
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| posted on September 14th, 2010 at 10:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Thing to remember is stock engines were designed to run flat bickey
Even 36 years later if your tinwares all in check and timing and carb are tuned right it will crank along at 4000rpm all day long,
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This is so true, straight from the owners manual...'maximum and cruising speed 75mph'...
I went even smaller than a power pulley on my 9000 rpm engine, definately not for the street.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 07:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gwendolyns Master
I remember there was an article last year(?) in the Club VeeDub magazine that gave the formuals for working out such things using tyre size, gear
ratios and rpm. Can anyone reproduce that?
Craig
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I'm glad you remembered that article - I wrote it! It was in the August '09 issue of Zeitschrift. You can download it as a PDF here:
http://vwwatercooled.com/mag/mag/history.html
The speed to gear/diff formula is:
km/h = (rpm * circ * 0.06) / (gear * final)
where rpm is any engine rpm you like; circ is the rear tyre circumference; gear is the gear ratio, and final is the diff ratio.
For an L-Bug for example, with stock 165/70x15 tyres (1.923m circumference), and a 0.93 fourth and 3.875 diff, it would be doing 32.01 km/h per 1000
rpm in fourth, and 3436 rpm at 110 km/h.
Obviously you could use a spreadsheet to try heaps of different combinations, but no doubt there are websites around that do the same thing.
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dangerous
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 07:58 AM |
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Whenever these topics come up I always like to do some ratio combinations
for both the ultimate five and 4 speed Volksy type 1 trans.
You always must factor in your own tyre height.
A difference of one inch in diameter can make a HUGE difference on the highway.
If you have a little more torque than stock,
(as most people will, that go to the trouble of fitting a five speed into an air cooled),
I like this combination:
3.875 diff:
0.889 fifth
1.2174 fourth
1.6667 third
2.3571 second
3.7778 first
It can cruise at around 80km/h quietly at 3000 in 4th,
and not so tall as Daimos in 5th,
so the rev drop as you shift into 5th is better than stock.
If you want to stay with a 4-speed and have greater than stock torque,(say, with plus 2lt capacity and mild cam),
you can close up the ratios from the bottom:
3.875 diff
0.889 fourth
1.2174 third(early kombi)
1.857 second (aftermarket)
3.333 first.
This gives better than stock gaps between the gears,
and less cruising rpm.
If you prefer to use the stock 4th gear you can use the formulae, or Matt's spred sheet (below),
to make equivalent combinations with a little more rpm.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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matberry
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 07:58 AM |
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Not sure if this xl spreadsheet will work, but I'll try and post it, it's what I use (because I have it) and it does tyre size and gearbox ratios.
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Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vlad01
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 08:16 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Don't place 100% faith in a welded fan, they still espload too,
just far less chance of it
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lol what was the fan rpm on that? 14000rpm
Beware of so claimed "balanced fans" You can tell buy looking for welded in random pieces of metal through out the fan. they are counter weights.
if no such modification are visible, Watch out these! They will wobble from harmonic vibration well before it hits it's potential rpm and may blow
apart.
71 notchback,
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Joel
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 09:24 AM |
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Nope, just one of the downsides of running a serp belt on a performance engine
Vbelts slip for a reason
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General_Failure
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| posted on September 16th, 2010 at 01:35 PM |
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Why are people having a hard time understanding low revs + more throttle is harder on a motor than higher revs and less throttle?
More throttle = bigger fire. lower revs it is sticking around longer heating everything up.
Less throttle = smaller fire. At higher revs heaps of little flames not sticking around as long are cooler.
Try an experiment. You need a cig lighter and a fire lighter.
Light the lighter. now wave your hand across it quickly. Easy right?
Now light the fire lighter. That flame's bigger and hotter, isn't it. Now try moving your hand over it slowly at the same height you did with the
lighter.
Did you do it? I hope the nice nurse at A&E didn't laugh at you too much.
If you have your foot planted and aren't going any faster you are either in the wrong gear or breaking the speed limit 
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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matberry
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| posted on September 16th, 2010 at 03:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Why are people having a hard time understanding low revs + more throttle is harder on a motor than higher revs and less throttle?
More throttle = bigger fire. lower revs it is sticking around longer heating everything up.
Less throttle = smaller fire. At higher revs heaps of little flames not sticking around as long are cooler.
Try an experiment. You need a cig lighter and a fire lighter.
Light the lighter. now wave your hand across it quickly. Easy right?
Now light the fire lighter. That flame's bigger and hotter, isn't it. Now try moving your hand over it slowly at the same height you did with the
lighter.
Did you do it? I hope the nice nurse at A&E didn't laugh at you too much.
If you have your foot planted and aren't going any faster you are either in the wrong gear or breaking the speed limit
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I see your point GF, but can't fully agree. Yes Wide Open Throttle makes more heat, but any engine should be able to take it.
VW states maximum and cruising speed, I know my transporter wbxr can drive sustained WOT for as long as necessary....and that has been known to be a
long time  , if the engines design couldn't withstand this, Volksies
would have died long ago.
Gearing and cooling and engine performance and vehicle frontal area etc etc etc....all have a part to play.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 08:47 AM |
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Hi Tristan, your analogy is interesting but doesn't work in the real world.
The point of using a higher top gear (or a fifth gear) is to make the motor turn slower AT A GIVEN SPEED. In practical terms this can be the highway
or mtorway speed limit - say 100 km/h.
Let's say your stock VW has to turn at 3500 rpm to maintain 100 km/h. It's designed to do that all day. Now you change the gearing so that it turns
at (say) 3000 rpm at the same speed. To maintain 3000 rpm you are using LESS throttle, not more. The engine runs cooler and you use less fuel. You
know that, in practice, you don't drive at full throttle at highway speeds. You accelerate to 100 km/h then you back off the throttle until you have
just enough throttle to maintain 100 km/h. You only need more or even full throttle for climbing grades, whereas you might back off entirely doing
downhill.
Now think of the reverse. Let's say you change the gearing to make it run at 4000 rpm at 100 km/h. You need more throttle to make it do that, so you
burn more fuel and the engine runs hotter.
On average a taller gear makes the car run cooler and more economically - but only up to a point. You don't want to lug the engine, so you don't
'overgear' it - make top gear TOO tall. A VW 1600 develops its maximum torque at around 2,500 rpm, which in top gear is around 80 km/h. If you make
it taller you move that maximum torque speed upwards, but at speeds below that you are potentially lugging the engine. That's a stock engine. This
becomes a bigger problem with a performance engine, which has its maximum torque at higher rpms. So you have the potential there - a hi-po hi-rev
engine and tall gearing - to lug the engine at highway speeds!
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pete wood
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 10:24 AM |
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Phil has a good point. I had an 091 4:56RnP fitted with a 0.77 4th for the EJ25 in my buggy. On the freeway it's great with the 31"s. Round town,
it's awful. Can't make up my mind if I want 3rd or 4th all the time coz it lugs so bad. Put standard road tyres on and the car is transformed. The
subaru is a torquey motor, but it's not designed to be driven at 1500rpm all day. It feels like a good aircooled. Smaller tyres and some revs and WOW
what a difference, you can actually get the motor into it's preferred torque curve and power range. You can tell the diff in temp too. It runs hotter
if it lugs at low revs all the time.
The big diff between this motor and ACVWs is, the cooling is not directly related to engine speed. ACVWs totally are. So to venture out of the most
efficient fan range is for a given load is a serious concern.
Now if you really want to find all this totally irrelevant, from what I have heard, subaru motors in subaru cars (with a 5 speed) are set up to do
round 3500rpm at 110kmh. Isn't that interesting. Pretty much the same as an ACVW... So what were we arguing about? 
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Smiley
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 10:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Thing to remember is stock engines were designed to run flat bickey
Even 36 years later if your tinwares all in check and timing and carb are tuned right it will crank along at 4000rpm all day long,
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mattberry
This is so true, straight from the owners manual...'maximum and cruising speed 75mph'...
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I tried this on my way home from work this morning.
She could only manage 65MPH flat out 
That's about 112km/h in my car 
Might be time for a tune up.
That's not to say that it didn't run well like that. Sang along like a bird, if anything it got a little cooler, and didn't sound like pistons were
jumping out through the block.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 12:00 PM |
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my na 02 subaru is very similar in rpm to my beetle pete
Except 4th as i wanted a close ratio box but with cruiser top....
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vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 01:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
Why are people having a hard time understanding low revs + more throttle is harder on a motor than higher revs and less throttle?
More throttle = bigger fire. lower revs it is sticking around longer heating everything up.
Less throttle = smaller fire. At higher revs heaps of little flames not sticking around as long are cooler.
Try an experiment. You need a cig lighter and a fire lighter.
Light the lighter. now wave your hand across it quickly. Easy right?
Now light the fire lighter. That flame's bigger and hotter, isn't it. Now try moving your hand over it slowly at the same height you did with the
lighter.
Did you do it? I hope the nice nurse at A&E didn't laugh at you too much.
If you have your foot planted and aren't going any faster you are either in the wrong gear or breaking the speed limit
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Spot on! the term is call "laboring the engine"
My crumpledore gets worse economy if rpm is less than 2000rpm. 5th gear is useless on this car unless you are over 95km/s on flat or down hill only. I
can tell you laboring the engine is by far one of the worst things you can do besides running with no oil.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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sander288
Custom Title Time!
"Bolt-on Master"
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 01:25 PM |
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Just a note on max speed is cruising speed, my 1300 on the gold coast freeway a few years back ran at full throttle for about 1 hour and it did not
overheat or shirk at that speed.
The car also happily runs at 120kph on the F3 when it has to all day. At the end of last year in about November or so it was 40 + degrees in the
hunter and high 30's in Sydney, I had to drive down from armidale in the bug. Flat out on the F3 in top gear it ran fine, but there was hyundais (who
said get a good 5 speed...) and all other soughts of cars breaking
down all over the shop with steam out of the bonnet!
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Joel
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Now containing 100% E-Wang
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 01:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
Thing to remember is stock engines were designed to run flat bickey
Even 36 years later if your tinwares all in check and timing and carb are tuned right it will crank along at 4000rpm all day long,
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mattberry
This is so true, straight from the owners manual...'maximum and cruising speed 75mph'...
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I tried this on my way home from work this morning.
She could only manage 65MPH flat out
That's about 112km/h in my car
Might be time for a tune up.
That's not to say that it didn't run well like that. Sang along like a bird, if anything it got a little cooler, and didn't sound like pistons were
jumping out through the block.
Smiley
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Bare in mind you car deviates quite dramatically to stock.
Big wide back tyres like yours place alot more load on the driveline not to mention the fact theyre taller than stock as well which is throwing off
the gearing
Yes your car has less wieght with fibreglass kit and no rear bodywork but has extra weight in bigger tyre/wheels, front and rear bar work etc.
I imgaine aerodynamics would be affected somewhat on a baja too
A 5th gear in a vw is fine if you travel big KMs on dead flat motorway, but it would only take the slightest incline before the engine would start
cracking a sweat
Like Daimo and others have said most modern 4 cylinder cars are doing 2800-3000rpm at 100km/h in 5th anyway
Its the big lazy 6s that can do less
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matberry
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Go hard or go home
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| posted on September 17th, 2010 at 04:48 PM |
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I have a foreign car from Nth Darwin in our garage most of the time, the first SUV and it has a 2.0 efi waterpumper that has a 6000 rpm red line and
is geared to nearly 3500rpm @ 100km/h. And it's a 5 speed too. I get
into my wbxr after driving it and the diference in torque ... wow....the boxer admittingly is a 2.1 but pushing a much bigger bus, absolutely kills
the rficer for torque.
Oh Ohh....more worms
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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