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 boof2332
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| posted on March 23rd, 2014 at 03:10 PM |
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Hey guys...
I have talked about this a lot and have played with lots of set ups.. my bug runs too cold.. I have to block some of the radiator in winter.
The key to the whole thing working is having the shroud that the radiator sits in, go past the bottom and sides of the radiator.
It might not make any sense, but all the pics in the posts before showing the black plastic between the front spoiler and front suspension on all
cars, is only there for one real reason.. to cause a low pressure behind the radiator to allow air to be drawn through it, not pushed. Air cannot be
pushed through, regardless of the size of the scoop, if the air behind the radiator is higher or the same.
My shroud on the sides and underneath goes about 7cm past the back of the radiator. This simply stops air filling the space directly behind the
radiator causing high pressure. What it does do is cause a vacuum behind the radiator and air is drawn through.
I always refer back to an article I read on air flow where some guys too the black plastic shroud off a wrx and air was rushing straight up behind the
spoiler and pressuring the engine bay so much so that not only did the car get instantly hot.. air was actually going backwards out the bonnet scoop
as the pressure in the engine bay was greater then the air hitting the scoop.
Did any of that make sense?????
Matt
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 24th, 2014 at 09:39 AM |
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Hi Boof
All of the input is helping me get my head around what I need to do, thanks everyone.
I did a bit of driving Saturday and it was a hot day. I went to Hare & Forbes at Northmead, out along the M4 sitting on 110 kph to Mulgoa where I
was able to give the car a good squirt up some back roads and then back to Lugarno, the whole time the temperatures sat on just under 90 C.
This sort of driving is not an issue, its only on the track that I have a issues after a few laps, hopefully with a few mods I can get this problem
sorted.
Steve
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boof2332
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| posted on March 24th, 2014 at 05:41 PM |
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Ok..
My turbo water line also doesn't go back into the motor, rather into the manifold where the heater core is supposed to return. That way the boosted
water goes directly to the radiator, not back through the engine.
I did so much shit to my motor to make sure it didn't run hot and that my air intake temps were as cold as possible..
Hope you sort it out for the track..
matt
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 24th, 2014 at 06:00 PM |
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Hi Matt
My turbo water does the same return path, it goes back down near the thermostat and heater core return.
Steve
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Joel
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| posted on March 24th, 2014 at 07:47 PM |
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Matt, are you running a hotside thermostat setup or the stock Subi one?
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on March 25th, 2014 at 11:16 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by boof2332
Ok..
My turbo water line also doesn't go back into the motor, rather into the manifold where the heater core is supposed to return. That way the boosted
water goes directly to the radiator, not back through the engine.
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that's exactly what mine does as well, it goes no where near the thermostat, giving it no chance to go through the engine
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 26th, 2014 at 10:53 AM |
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Hi
On the stock WRX header tank, the turbo water goes in it as well as a an outlet to the thermostat housing, I originally had these hoses teed together
and feeding in to my T25 header tank, when I joined them together and bypassed my header tank, my running temps dropped about 10 c.
Before I did this my cooling system would gurgle after shutting down
I was advised to do this on VWKD.
Steve
Steve
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lou0060
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| posted on March 30th, 2014 at 06:11 PM |
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hi Steve, some good discussion here. the key is definitely to generate a lower pressure behind the radiator as a few have suggested. Remember
whatever air goes in to the front of the radiator has to come out somewhere so you need a path out to get that air out. Also, the route of the
cooling fluid is also really important and I am also playing around with that as well as I have the same issue, under low load all is fine but run at
high revs with turbos boosting and it all gets hot! And I don't mean for a 100m sprint, I am talking about 5-6 laps at 6000rpm-8000rpm.
I am interested in what people are saying about sending the turbo cooling fluid somewhere other than the stock location. When you say your water goes
to the thermostat housing can you clarify that it is going into the housing behind the thermostat and in fron to the pump. If so that water goes back
thru the motor. Also with your water pump how many lines in does it have? Mine has 3 not counting the main hose. One is for the oil cooler, one for
the heater core and one for the turbo line.
I am in the process of changing ,mine around and will have the turbo line now feeding into the main radiator in hose and I have drilled 6 holes 4mm
diameter around the thermostat so I have continous flow. Then I am connecting the heater outlet to the top of the filler tank, (where the turbo line
used to go) and then the return from the filer tank will tee off to the thermostat and also to the return heater line. Hope that makes sense.
I have also completely enclosed my radiator front and rear and have 4 x 100mm flex tubes feeding the air coming out of the radiator and venting up to
the vents under the rear window. I'll post some pictures on my thread when I have it finished and I will be testing at Lakeside next weekend.
HAve you got the original fluid flow diagram for your engine?
1971 karmann ghia Cabrio - Cruising 
1963 beetle Sunroof - gathering dust 
1968 race beetle - twin turbo Subaru - stress relief 
1960 beetle - old school low & slow  |
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 30th, 2014 at 07:00 PM |
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Hi
I've just done heaps of cruise laps often at full throttle & high boost at Powercruise in Sydney, no cooling issues at all and it was pretty hot
yesterday & today.
This is how I explained my cooling circuit on vwkd.com
I've since joined the two hoses from the header tank, one from the turbo and the other to the thermostat.
You can read my post here http://vwkd.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4479&highlight= with some good information, anybody contemplating a Subaru or any
other engine swap should visit this website.
Steve
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vlad01
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| posted on March 30th, 2014 at 07:25 PM |
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wow thats complicated as.
whats the coolant for the TB for? is the idle controlled thermostatically or something?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 30th, 2014 at 07:38 PM |
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They pass coolant through the throttle body to prevent icing, I've deleted that
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lou0060
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| posted on March 30th, 2014 at 09:21 PM |
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that's good Steve but I'll tell you what me concern is, maybe I have read it wrong. If you have taken the coolant line from the turbo and routed it
to the radiator inlet hose, which is what I have done, what have you done to ensure there is continuos flow in that circuit? The water pump pumps
coolant thru essentially 4 circuits; 1 engine and heads, 2 oil cooler, 3 heater and TB, and 4 turbo, or in my case turbos. Now until the thermo opens
the radiator is excluded from the circuits. So if you just plumb the turbo circuit into the radiator inlet hose then effectively you have shut down
that circuit until the thermo opens.
Does this make sense?
1971 karmann ghia Cabrio - Cruising
1963 beetle Sunroof - gathering dust
1968 race beetle - twin turbo Subaru - stress relief
1960 beetle - old school low & slow |
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 05:45 AM |
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Hi Lou
From vwkd.com "Originally the turbo water went into the top of the header tank (non fingered) and out of the bottom (fingered). I've simply
bypassed and removed the header tank. "
I cant see any other way to get the coolant from the turbo back into the coolant circuit, maybe my cooling circuit is different to earlier models
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vlad01
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 08:03 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
They pass coolant through the throttle body to prevent icing, I've deleted that
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wtf? That doesn't even make sense. There is no fuel at the TB to cause icing. Sure I would understand if it was TB injection but on multi point?
I never understood why Jap cars had this, now it makes less sense haha.
Good thing you deleted it then.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 08:10 AM |
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has anyone changed the layout to use more traditional outlet thermostat and bypass loop setup?
I recall Joel did? not sure?
If changed to outlet style it would simplify the system a lot. This ^ is actually the most complicated system I ever seen. I had no idea suby cooling
system was so complex.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Joel
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 09:03 AM |
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That diagram makes it look far more complicated than it really is.
The coolant is run through the throttle body to simply to stop the risk of throttle jamming in snowy climates.
I deleted mine too, there is talk on NASIOC of guys getting power gains by removing them but i reckon it would be miniscule.
I've kept the stock cold side thermostat layout, it works really well when its setup properly, gets to temp very quick (mine is under 5 mins all year
round) and very stable temps.
Its a common Jap thing, mine and the old mans Mazdas were like it too.
It can be a problem in very cold climates though, I know Ricola has gone to the hot side remote mount BMW or Land Rover thermostat and I remember
Robbo was going to bolt to Subi thermostat housings together to make a remote mount for his Kombi.
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vlad01
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 10:20 AM |
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There would be some gains without heating the TB.
Couple of us guys run manifold insulators on the commys and dynos shows few to 10s Kw gain from cooler intake charge. But you are right, TB is only a
small surface area compared to a whole intake so heat soak transfer would be tiny compared to what we deal with.
Anyway I see what you mean that the stock setup with long cooling path seen on a vw would have some issues in cold areas. like where I live haha. I
have both of the worst extremes.
frigged temps in winter, extreme heat in summer.
I understand that diagram, but I really mean that is complicated as even if you disregard the engine part of the diagram.
The most complicated setup I saw on a bitsaremissing and I had no idea why there was so many pipes and stuff.
My most complicated water pumpers have have 2 hoses for the rad, 2 for the heater core with tap. One overflow container thats not even part of the
pressured cooling system. Thats it!
there is an internal bypass for the thermostat and on the later engines I have sitting in the shed have bypass part of the heater core setup. just a
bypassing heater tap is the only difference.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Joel
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 12:03 PM |
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It's a quirky system and more complicated but part of the reason it can maintain such stable temps is it just runs through the heatloop to control
the thermostat opening and closing and "sips" whatever cooler coolant it needs coming back from the radiator rather than the constant opening and
closeing the thermostats do on the hot side as they dont know whats going into the engine from radiator, only what's coming back out.
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vlad01
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 12:55 PM |
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thast how this system work too. the bypass/heater loop is what controls the thermostat and keeps coolant flowing for even temps when actual cooling is
not being required.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 02:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by lou0060
hi Steve, some good discussion here. the key is definitely to generate a lower pressure behind the radiator as a few have suggested. Remember
whatever air goes in to the front of the radiator has to come out somewhere so you need a path out to get that air out. Also, the route of the
cooling fluid is also really important and I am also playing around with that as well as I have the same issue, under low load all is fine but run at
high revs with turbos boosting and it all gets hot! And I don't mean for a 100m sprint, I am talking about 5-6 laps at 6000rpm-8000rpm.
I am interested in what people are saying about sending the turbo cooling fluid somewhere other than the stock location. When you say your water goes
to the thermostat housing can you clarify that it is going into the housing behind the thermostat and in fron to the pump. If so that water goes back
thru the motor. Also with your water pump how many lines in does it have? Mine has 3 not counting the main hose. One is for the oil cooler, one for
the heater core and one for the turbo line.
I am in the process of changing ,mine around and will have the turbo line now feeding into the main radiator in hose and I have drilled 6 holes 4mm
diameter around the thermostat so I have continous flow. Then I am connecting the heater outlet to the top of the filler tank, (where the turbo line
used to go) and then the return from the filer tank will tee off to the thermostat and also to the return heater line. Hope that makes sense.
I have also completely enclosed my radiator front and rear and have 4 x 100mm flex tubes feeding the air coming out of the radiator and venting up to
the vents under the rear window. I'll post some pictures on my thread when I have it finished and I will be testing at Lakeside next weekend.
HAve you got the original fluid flow diagram for your engine?
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where the two steel heater pipes come out the back of the motor you just get 1 metre or 2 of heater hose and join them together so the water still
flows around. no need to change the flow there as its so easy just to join together a couple bucks for heater hose. the extra coiled up hose under
car helps cooling also
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 03:06 PM |
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I will take a pic of my handy work of fitting the header tank pipe to top hose .
It looks different but its just how it works in the Subaru 
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 05:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by lou0060
that's good Steve but I'll tell you what me concern is, maybe I have read it wrong. If you have taken the coolant line from the turbo and routed it
to the radiator inlet hose, which is what I have done, what have you done to ensure there is continuos flow in that circuit? The water pump pumps
coolant thru essentially 4 circuits; 1 engine and heads, 2 oil cooler, 3 heater and TB, and 4 turbo, or in my case turbos. Now until the thermo opens
the radiator is excluded from the circuits. So if you just plumb the turbo circuit into the radiator inlet hose then effectively you have shut down
that circuit until the thermo opens.
Does this make sense?
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one top hose from header tank goes to fitting in the top radiator pipe that I welded in and the other hose goes to the turbo , the bottom hose
is still fitted to the steel pipe that goes down behind the thermostat
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 05:48 PM |
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Hi
I have my radiator and everything else out at the moment, just trying to work out what I can do without starting all over again. Coolant is so
sticky
I've managed to drop the radiator down about 40 mm, I think I have worked out a solution with ducting air better.
Good photos, I can't do what you did Ian, Boof mentioned putting the turbo water back into the system elsewhere, I just know where I can route it.
Steve
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ian.mezz
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| posted on March 31st, 2014 at 06:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
I have my radiator and everything else out at the moment, just trying to work out what I can do without starting all over again. Coolant is so
sticky
I've managed to drop the radiator down about 40 mm, I think I have worked out a solution with ducting air better.
Good photos, I can't do what you did Ian, Boof mentioned putting the turbo water back into the system elsewhere, I just know where I can route it.
Steve
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yes its more for louys race car 
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 28th, 2014 at 01:02 PM |
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Hi
I managed to move my radiator backwards and down a little, the incoming air flow should get a better shot at the radiator now, I also made some panels
out of black perspex to scoop the air in and to close off the sides of the radiator.
It seems fine driving on the street, the only way to test it now is to do run at a race track, Wakefield next month.
Steve
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on April 28th, 2014 at 02:49 PM |
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are your radiators tilting forward Steve?
or is that just the photo
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 28th, 2014 at 07:19 PM |
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Hi Jak
They are straight up & down, I tried to tilt the radiator but there wasnt the room without some major work, Im pretty cconfident that this will
work.
Steve
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lou0060
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| posted on April 29th, 2014 at 07:00 PM |
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looks good Steve. We'll see how it runs at Wakefield. I've made more changes to mine as well and will be having a run at lakeside this Sunday so
hopefully these latest mods will do the trick.
1971 karmann ghia Cabrio - Cruising
1963 beetle Sunroof - gathering dust
1968 race beetle - twin turbo Subaru - stress relief
1960 beetle - old school low & slow |
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 30th, 2014 at 02:05 PM |
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Good luck on Sunday Lou, I cant wait to have a run.
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1303Steve
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| posted on May 26th, 2014 at 02:29 PM |
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Quick update
Cooling mods seemed to have worked at Wakefield, it never got over 95 all day, I fitted some 30 mm Sway Away rear bars and some new rear Bilsteins,
very happy with them both.
Later in the day at Wakefield my intake temps went way up, faulty inter cooler pump, I was also having boost issues, the EBoost was saying it saw a
maximum of 22-24 on recall but it was only making 14 psi down the straight.
I need more seat time and need some work on turbo system
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