| [ Total Views: 3198 | Total Replies: 149 | Thread Id: 14257 ] |
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 Adam_C
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| posted on October 13th, 2003 at 06:38 PM |
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i duno obut the otherstuff. . . . but the formula vee's have a stock front end as per the rules and guidelines...... but continue
Adam
Adzslick@iprimus.com.au
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Cam
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| posted on October 13th, 2003 at 06:52 PM |
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Formula vees remove the lower springs altogether and run a swaybar through the gap. Hence bringing the things lower. You do need shocks to keep wheels
in contact with the road and a light car with heavier springs will only worsen the springning effect. I'm no expert but I have dabbled with club
racing, mechanics, etc... and read a libary worth of suspension books. But still I am awaiting the opinion of a qualified expert before I have a
definate stance on how a slow minimal use cruiser would be affected by this sort of set-up.
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SKEWtYpe3
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| posted on October 13th, 2003 at 06:55 PM |
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the lower centre of gravity would play a huge part in keep the rubber on tar?
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Cam
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| posted on October 13th, 2003 at 10:20 PM |
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formula vees have the same centre of gravity of a beetle of the same height. But being mid engine they're far better balanced than a rear engined
car.
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 02:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Cam
Formula vees remove the lower springs altogether and run a swaybar through the gap. Hence bringing the things lower. You do need shocks to keep wheels
in contact with the road and a light car with heavier springs will only worsen the springning effect. I'm no expert but I have dabbled with club
racing, mechanics, etc... and read a libary worth of suspension books. But still I am awaiting the opinion of a qualified expert before I have a
definate stance on how a slow minimal use cruiser would be affected by this sort of set-up.
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This would answer your question of why formula Vs use shocks. Becuase if the bottom torsions are removed then it is way less spring tension. The
wieght per spring tension is that of a heavier car. We are going in circles.
I have a question for you all. How many of you have ever lowered a car by removing leafs from either the top or bottom beam Or both?....... Please
dont talk to me about "dangerous" if you have done this.
the statement about "tires leaving the road being dangerous" is the exact point. Once you narrow a beam more than 4 inches you make the
hieght:spring ratio so great that the wheels cant leave the road due to an uneven road. Im glad you brought that up, you have illistrated the point
exactly with your formula V analogy. Once we know that the leafs have been removed from the bottom beam we are talking about apples and oranges.
"Picture me rollin"
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:02 PM |
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Bro light cars with heavier springs creats more of a spring afect???????? So by your logic if I put a sping on the ground and hit it with a small
hammer lightly, it will have the same affect as hitting it with a sledge hammer with all my force????? Come on bro. Listen to what it is you are
saying.......
"Picture me rollin"
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TheGermanFolks
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:15 PM |
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yeah, what he said.
Scott R.
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Unity-28
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:18 PM |
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Trayle, I have given up on trying to explain... And they all keep saying its illgal and dangerous, but yet in the tech section, someone critisizing
narrowed beams was also telling someone to drill out some wheels for a different stud pattern, and use epoxy to cover the old holes!
N!
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:26 PM |
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| Quote: |
A type 2 however is a heavier vehicle so it does need shocks. I am wondering why being a heavier vehicle, being a commercial designed to carry loads,
why wasnt it fitted with heavier springs, and why wasnt it fitted with MUCH heavier springs to begin with cancelling out its heavier unladen weight,
allowing it to run without shocks as per the type 1.
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On a type II the wieght dispersement is much different from a beetle, For instance you site right on top of the suspension. The bus is fitted with
heavier springs. So is a Cadillac but I wouldnt advocate running a Cadi without shocks. Im sure youve all seen what that looks like riding down the
road. But because of the dead wieght of over a third of the beetle this is not a factor.
Look I realize this is something that is hard for you to grasp. But I am giving you all the answers. Have you done it??? I wonder. Have I done
it??? Absolutely.
"You could get a look at a steak by sticking you head up a cows ass..... Buit wouldnt you rather take the butchers word for it???"
"Picture me rollin"
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Unity-28
Trayle, I have given up on trying to explain... And they all keep saying its illgal and dangerous, but yet in the tech section, someone critisizing
narrowed beams was also telling someone to drill out some wheels for a different stud pattern, and use epoxy to cover the old holes!
N!
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I know bro. 10 years of experience, more than 15 magazine featured cars, and over a hundred beams built. And Im giving Free advice, and getting
arguements.
Here in the States we have a saying for this type of situation.
"You can lead a horse to water.. But you cant make it drink"
"Picture me rollin"
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:56 PM |
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In Australia it is illegal to run a vehicle without shock absorbers when it was designed to have them. End of argument.
Kruizin Kol
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Unity-28
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 03:59 PM |
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Or you can say, "dont Knock it, till you try it". The thing that gets me is, I have never critisized anyone for doing what they like, It
their car, they can do what they like, but as soon as we start saying what we want to do, Boom everyone is down on us like a fly to shiat! Not many
of the guys on here have met me b4, so when they see the car in the flesh without knowing anything about it, they will be saying "nice ride"
and all that, and thats when I will tell them exactly what mods are done, lets see what the reaction will be then?
N!
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:02 PM |
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Im gonna prove a piont here that not many will be able to argue with.
How many of you have ever removed your shocks and had them tested? Anyone???? Especially on a beetle. You could drive 50k miles with blown shocks
on beetle an not even know it. Especially on a daily driver. I would guess that 7 out of 10 of you are driving on less than adequate shocks right
now. Dangerous??? I dont think so... How many of you have the original shocks on your cars?? How many of you have EVER changed the shocks on your
car?? Im gonna guess that there are a few that have never changed them. Would you say that you are in danger???? I think not.
"Picture me rollin"
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Unity-28
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:03 PM |
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Kol, Its also illegal to run a car with a motor that was never put into it from factory. Both of these items however can be Engineered, so therefore
there is a way around it. It is also illegal to drive around with you stereo full blast, but its being done all the time! Illegal to drive a car with
visible rust...How many volksies have rust showing? The argument can go on and on!
N!
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:04 PM |
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N, lower it by all means, narrow the beam if you want to, but make sure it is safe - not just for your own sake, but for the sake of other road users.
I haven't even read the whole thread. I saw someone giving advice that could get people into a lot of trouble with the law, so I felt obliged to
post. By all means, go as low as you can, but find a way to incorporate shockers!! :thumb
*Edit: So just because other people do it, you think it's ok?
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Kruizin Kol
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:06 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by KruizinKombi
In Australia it is illegal to run a vehicle without shock absorbers when it was designed to have them. End of argument.
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No thats a whole different arguement.
It is here too my friend. It is also illegal to modify your suspension in any way(lowering or raising). It is illegal to modify your exhaust. It is
illegal to...... You name it. We are talking about the handling of a custom car. Not the legality of it.
I see lots of cars with Modified suspension both here and in Australia. And in Europe. And hell everywere in the world.
"Picture me rollin"
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TheGermanFolks
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:09 PM |
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kombi- maybe next time you should read the whole thread before you post. that fact that it is illegal is irrelevant. what we are talkin about is the
theory of how they work, and if they are safe. Not if it is illegal.
Scott R.
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Unity-28
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:13 PM |
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Not at all Kol. And What im gonna say dont take it the wrong way either. I have actually stated earlier on a post somewhere, it might have bee the
thread about 135's, that my car is going to be engineered through 00 motorsport (craig lowndes old car builder) And I will be running shocks,
cause I have made brackets for the shocks and Airbags to funtion from. I have actually spoken to KK about this matter (who was the person to start
this post) and Have told him how to do it, with shock towers. The other thing is, Im not doing this nor is KK doing this to be like the
"others" We are purely doing it cause we like the look. We got critisized on a Now Deleted thread for wanting to have a "look" but
doesnt everyone want a "look". And Believe me, if hotrodders can drive their cars without shocks and legally i might add, whats so
different about a bug? The whole concept works. the narrower you go, the tighter the Torsions are, the better the ride. Simple!
N!
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:18 PM |
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You know what... Never mind. Unity is right. Why am I trying.
Look if you want a narrowed beam. The facts are in this thread. If you dont. Fine tpp. Its no skin of my back. You can believe all the wives tales
you want . But for those of you who like to stand out in a crowd, dont be afraid to ask questions, do what you want, have fun with it. But by all
means be safe. Do not lower your car by pulling leafs out of your front end. And That is a legal way to do it......Legal doesnt mean it right...
"Picture me rollin"
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decked dubby
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:21 PM |
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:23 PM |
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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Picture me rollin"
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Unity-28
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:30 PM |
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Damn Damo, AMEN!
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:30 PM |
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Scott, I have now read the entire post, not that it made any difference. I didn't come here to start an argument, but shockers are required on a
road registered VW. Sure, you're not discussing the legalities because it's "irrelevant".
Irrelevant? Are you designing a trailer queen that won't even be able to be club registered? Or are you going to find an approved automotive
engineer willing to put his head on the block by signing off on your car as being safe?
Please don't mistake me for a flamer. I love the look of really low cars. I just wouldn't drive one based on practicality.
Trayle, I do understand that we are talking about handling, and understand what you are saying about relative weights, etc. But why would a
manufacturer fit shockers in the first place unless they help handling. Surely you are not trying to tell us that a Beetle will handle better without
shockers than it does with them?
N, go for it, and I will be the first to pat you on the back and tell you what a great ride you've put together, because I really do admire this
stuff. 
As for the old rodders running without shocks legally though.... Old rods use leaf springs which have inherent damping qualities caused by the
friction between spring leaves. Also, some older models were not designed with shock absorbers in the first place.
Kruizin Kol
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no slow 63
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:32 PM |
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The beam in my 69 is narrowed 4 1/2 inches......I might take my shocks out and see how it drives......But I spose I can't really say anything
untill I do that....
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:37 PM |
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| Quote: |
As for the old rodders running without shocks legally though.... Old rods use leaf springs which have inherent damping qualities caused by the
friction between spring leaves. Also, some older models were not designed with shock absorbers in the first place.
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Beetles use leaf srings also. They just happen to run inside the beam. Thats why they are called leafs and not torsions. This is getting silly.
"Leafs have inherent damping qualities caused by the friction between spring leaves"
Thank you. Some who knows what they are talking about at last.
"Picture me rollin"
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by no slow 63
The beam in my 69 is narrowed 4 1/2 inches......I might take my shocks out and see how it drives......But I spose I can't really say anything
untill I do that....
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Why? If there was a way to do a 4.5 inch link pin beam with shocks that would be cost effective I would do it.
But to prove a point?... By all mean.
Your adjusters will have to be set alittle differently though. Lower one, and raise the other until you find the poinit where you are at the desired
height and the arms are fighting eachother.
"Picture me rollin"
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TheGermanFolks
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:43 PM |
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Im done, this is getting retarded. we already went through this on the last thread. I stand by the fact that Trayle and myself are the only ones who
ride on narrowed beams without shocks here, s if anyone knows if it is safe or not, it would be us, especially trayle who has a degree in this shit.
Sorry for the free advice. wont happen again.
if anyone has any questions about narrowed beams, feel free to send me a U2U and I;d be happy to help you out.
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by TheGermanFolks]
Scott R.
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Trayle D. the real oggfk
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:49 PM |
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Hey Scott.....
LOL...........PRAISE THE LOWERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
"Picture me rollin"
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TheGermanFolks
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 04:55 PM |
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damn right, PRAISE THE LOWERED, MUTHAFUCKAS!
Scott R.
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no slow 63
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| posted on October 14th, 2003 at 05:03 PM |
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Exactly.....to prove a point.
Everyone has their own theory on this , but they refuse to believe someone who has actually done it.....
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