| [ Total Views: 10088 | Total Replies: 141 | Thread Id: 38212 ] |
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 dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on May 3rd, 2005 at 09:45 PM |
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So, does that mean that the system in question is really only firing the easyest plug, with less timing, but using a modern high energy ignition. If
so, end of discussion?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Gracey
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| posted on May 3rd, 2005 at 11:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
So, does that mean that the system in question is really only firing the easyest plug, with less timing, but using a modern high energy ignition. If
so, end of discussion?
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Ah no, the system in question is two completely separate ignitions, (its just happen to be packaged in one neat unit) if one system fails the other
keeps going. Thats why it's approved for aircraft use.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on May 4th, 2005 at 10:50 AM |
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I believe the two plugs are on different circuits arent they ?
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GregWard
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| posted on May 4th, 2005 at 11:36 AM |
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2 different circuits, 2 plugs fired simultaneously, 2 coils, and in my case 2 CDI's.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on May 5th, 2005 at 07:28 PM |
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Greg,Should be interesting to see the results...especially being that you are using the CDI version. Will you be able to test with 1 or 2 plugs on the
dyno or wont you be able to switch to one only? What ignition system are you running now? Other than the plug machining, how are your new heads
different to what you have now?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 5th, 2005 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
I've been privy to an old datsun head, a flathead (sidevalve ford) heads and an aircooled vw head that had an extra hole machined into the combustion
chamber. If I am lucky I might be allowed to take a photo, but the doctorate is still two years away so it might be bit of an ask...
This is probably the only time an extra hole would be actually advancement...
Can anyone say direct injection?
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umm, I believe I already did. 
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
...or a Sarich 2 stroke...which, by the way, I reckon would go heaps well as an aircooled boxer conversion. :thumbs
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[Edited on 5/5/2005 by pete wood]
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on May 5th, 2005 at 11:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
umm, I believe I already did.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
...or a Sarich 2 stroke...which, by the way, I reckon would go heaps well as an aircooled boxer conversion. :thumbs
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Two stroke has been done several times, for example:
http://mpsys.ca/Images/Showcase/InHouse/WebAlbums/VW%202%20Stroke%20Beetle/index.htm
Good for flat out and high revs cause of no valve train, but they really need forced induction.
What I have seen is four stroke direct injection.
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pete wood
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| posted on May 6th, 2005 at 12:04 PM |
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Matt, I was thinking forced induction. I saw an awesome feature on a sarich 2 stroke 6 in Zoom some years back. I was supercharged with direct
injection and a wet crankcase. They were raving about it.
Do you know if the the dragbug in those pics was blown or turbo?
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on May 6th, 2005 at 12:08 PM |
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Blown
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 6th, 2005 at 11:18 PM |
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cool :thumb now where's that welder gone?
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shiftyvw
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| posted on May 7th, 2005 at 06:01 PM |
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Why would a twin plug ignition be of any great advantage in a turbo motor? If one plug is misfiring then another of the same power isnt going to fare
any better and once lit a dense mixture burns quickly i thought?. I think people are forgetting that a twin plug system isnt neccesarilly more
powerful in regards to intial firing requirements. From what i can see the excellerated burn rate is of most use from a performance point of view only
when confronted with a slow burning chamber or fuel, fuel dragsters being the ultimate example. On blown alcohol cars the twin plug motors really dont
appear to have a great advantage in racing but 911's on the other hand react very favourably but again they are used in normal driving where light
throttle response makes all the difference. Both have roughly similar chambers and valve sizes.
On the positive side i can see potential fuel savings for the street driven cars!
BTW what is access like in changing plugs and leads on the converted engines? |
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OvalGlen
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| posted on May 13th, 2005 at 08:17 PM |
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Dyno Proof.!
was mentioning this whole debate to Mike Thur night whilst he
was preparing his Drag car for the Nats ,
he said he wasnt against the idea of twin plugs but he would
offer free dyno time for someone that has the mod with results
to be shared with all:......
1.The car would have the single set of plugs connected with
Optimal timing set up (whether that be with 009 or a change
to the system on the car to optimal performance)
2. Then the twin system would be connected and set as customer
advises ( whether that be retarded or whatever.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
so the time to prove it is at hand.
and free dyno time ......................unreal
Regards,Glenn>
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Turbo54
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 01:42 PM |
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Can someone who has had the twins done please take up this offer. I would love to see but I understand it's not all about performance HP figures. The
driveability and things like advance etc are benefits that a dyno just isn't going to show. Will be sending mine to have done soon beacuse the added
benefits for a turbo engine are well worth it. Speak to any porsche mec. who has experience with twins V's single and they love the twins everytime.
I know the combustion chamber shape is different but if your not trying something new and doing the same old same old, your actually going
backwards!
T54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 02:00 PM |
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Free Dyno time......................yeah right.......................more like trying to learn the advantages without doing the hard yards.
I have twin plugs, I am enjoying the results, and I really couldn't be bothered showing the different dyno curves relating to the changing of the 009
to the twin plug set up.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 02:09 PM |
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Hardly Craig.
The offer would even be open to Stan himself.
But as usual all talk....
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 02:12 PM |
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Enjoying the advantages?
Why cause it drove like shit at lower revs cause it couldn't get a good burn?
Haven't yet seen a stroker with the same or greater top end HP suffer the same problem at low rpms as I have seen with almost all 94/69 combos.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 02:21 PM |
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You'd think those pushing these engines would be jumping at the chance to have their claims empirically proven.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 02:27 PM |
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you're a naughty boy matt, stirring them up like that. 
Come on guys, someone put one on a Dyno.
Craig, I'm sure even your amazing machine could stand a little dyno time. You could fine tune it more while it's there. Just a thought...
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 03:05 PM |
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It might not need fine tuning......Are you jealous Mat?
tssnq.com.au
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VWCOOL
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 03:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
Enjoying the advantages?
Why cause it drove like shit at lower revs cause it couldn't get a good burn?
Haven't yet seen a stroker with the same or greater top end HP suffer the same problem at low rpms as I have seen with almost all 94/69 combos.
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You been looking at the wrong 94/69 'combos', methinks!
Pay your debts, CxxT
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GregWard
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 04:47 PM |
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I will put mine on the dyno at the end of the year, back to back, BUT..
Just a perfect example why I never posted any info in the past on my combinations or experience even though I've been around this forum for years,
there's a handling article out there too that I wish I'd never written either....
Time to zip up again and let those that actually think for themselves send me an email or something if they want to, and I'll gladly speak to someone
with an open mind and help them as much as I can.
I've been around the VW scene in this country for 17+yrs and I've raced my bug (not just benchraced) for 14yrs, and for the life of me I've never
seen such bitchiness, such disinformation, such an unwillingness to learn, nor such an unappreciation for what your FELLOW ACVW nut is trying to
do.
We all have as different ideas as we have personality, and having said that, it is what makes it great, to simpy have clones of engines with no
different ideas is stupid, even if that engine does 12's in the 1/4.
It's starting to turn around in the USA, what was once the "only" way to do it about cylinder size and compression ratios, aftermarket heads,
cooling etc.. is being replaced by "thinking outside the square", what a shame us intelligent Aussies can't do the same?
Pretty sad really, so we all wave to each other on the road when we pass, but when you park your car overnight and see it in the morning and the tyres
are flat, you'd never think it was a fellow Vw lover that let them down......
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AdrianH
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 06:27 PM |
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Must be the time of year Greg, the clf has gone all awry too...
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gayanne
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 06:51 PM |
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I think people are asking the question, what are the results on dyno time with the Twin Plug compare to Single Plug motors? What is the price of a
1916 TP compare to 1916 SP motor? Are customers getting more bang for $$$$.?I would also like to say CBB look great, have great presentation and
giving people the truth on results.JVLRacing
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VWCOOL
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 07:06 PM |
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Here we go again.. the Great Dyno Debate. And now, ladeez and gennlemen, put your hands together for the star of our show....:thumb
Pay your debts, CxxT
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OvalGlen
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 07:06 PM |
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Turbo54 , I thought that the other benefits would be
noticeable on the dyno because you can see the torque
curve. I know that the way I'm going to set up my blown
1916 , it will not make huge HP but will make great torque.
I expect that the biggest improvement from twin plugs will be
in the mid range torque - "just the most used rev range for
the driving I do".
I would imagine that the potential of twin plugs comes
when the engine configuration is done to take full advantage. ie the compression ratio is higher than could run
on single plugs - so a little hard to dyno back to back.
- be more like two motors each optimised.
-
guess I'll have to keep guessing till the end of the year when
we can see twin plugs in action
Regards,Glenn>
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 08:46 PM |
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You know, some 50 years ago there was this great little car that hit roads all over the world. Lots of people said it was stupid. Others said it had
massive design faults. Still others said it would never last. It was called a "Volkswagen". Remember that car?
I love volkswagens because everything about them was outside of the square. They were an engineering masterpiece. They had classic styling, 4 wheel
independant suspension, boxers engines, amazing traction, ran on the smell of an oily rag and lasted forever...
It was totally different to anything else on the road. Still is.
Is this the same car as we're all hotting up?
I'm with Greg.
So, do whatever you want. Stroke it, bore it, put carpet on the roof if it makes it go faster. But stop all the bitching and help eachother instead.
There is no need to be right about everything. If it turns out you're wrong you've learnt something.
[Edited on 19/5/2005 by pete wood]
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vwtool
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 09:30 PM |
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If I wanted to see results I would put the cost of the twin plug heads and ignition to something that actually significantly increases my hp and
torque, not pay $2000 to have a cleaner burn and slightly better response low down. If you want better response stroke it, inject it, blow it,
whatever you like that REALLY works...if the vw motor was such a wonderful design, why didnt it have twin plugs to start with??? Bang for buck, I
wouldnt post before and after dyno results either...could be a little embarrasing. The things we do to stay in a class with volvo's and mazda 626's.
Hands up who is afraid of racing some quick cars(other than your vw's) and venturing out of the 1916 comfort zone. I know some of you more
experienced drivers would relish the challenge(you know who). Bigger, better, faster motor, less expense and the satisfaction of beating quick
cars!
You tell yourself something enough and you actually believe it regardless of what everyone else says. Besides what would you say to all that have
followed.
hugs and kisses.
Certain people need to be realise exactly where they are postioned on the food chain!
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gayanne
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 10:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwtool
If I wanted to see results I would put the cost of the twin plug heads and ignition to something that actually significantly increases my hp and
torque, not pay $2000 to have a cleaner burn and slightly better response low down. If you want better response stroke it, inject it, blow it,
whatever you like that REALLY works...if the vw motor was such a wonderful design, why didnt it have twin plugs to start with??? Bang for buck, I
wouldnt post before and after dyno results either...could be a little embarrasing. The things we do to stay in a class with volvo's and mazda 626's.
Hands up who is afraid of racing some quick cars(other than your vw's) and venturing out of the 1916 comfort zone. I know some of you more
experienced drivers would relish the challenge(you know who). Bigger, better, faster motor, less expense and the satisfaction of beating quick
cars!
You tell yourself something enough and you actually believe it regardless of what everyone else says. Besides what would you say to all that have
followed.
hugs and kisses.
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TextVWTool,that sums it up beatifully JVLRacing
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GregWard
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| posted on May 19th, 2005 at 10:32 PM |
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So Vwtool, something that "REALLY" works huh? so have YOU done it? I'll answer that for you, of course not cause it's "not the norm!"
Another unfounded, unbacked, and as I said before, "disinformation"
Stroke it, sure I agree as far as torque goes, for what $$$?? Turbo it? Sure for what $$$?
What is your real name and what have you raced?
"The things we do to stay in a class of volvo's and mazda 626's" ............are you that ignorant?
I've raced BDA Escorts, Nissan Pulsar's with Turbo's, serious Datsuns, and other extremely fast Vw's, I beat Jeff Unwin in 5 races in a season,
are you telling me his car is/was a piece of shit? Jeff's way is not my way as far as engine's go, but it doesn't mean I respect him any less for
his achievements??? Ring him up, I can give you the number if you don't have it, and like me he will tell you, it was one of the most exciting and
competitive sportsmanlike years in VW Racing history.......I've also come 8th out of 79cars including all the sports sedans of every manufacturer you
can imagine, even the WRX's,mini's, V8 Celica's etc... with slicks at Buladelah, one of Australia's fastest hillclimbs... and I drove my car to
the track, raced, won and drove home again.....just like I did last weekend........
1916 comfort zone? What a load of crap...
I choose to do what I want to do. no-one including my engine builder influences that, it is MY money after all.
But as I expected, here we go with the usual shit that I've seen for as many years as I've described in my last post.
Hey Vw tool, as you've said in your post, if the engine was such a fantastic design, then by your own admission, forgetting twin plugs as your sorry
argument, so why wasn't it injected, blown or stroked?
Sounds to me like you'd better answer your own argument before trying to belittle someone else's.
Again, my previous post stands true, without ANY knowledge or research, someone tries to strike down other people's progress.
Did you not read my last post? are we not supposed to be helping each other and SHARING information.
I tell you who I'm going to help, a bloke called Nathan Abbott, who comes from a Datsun world, where Dyno talk is a laugh a minute and track placings
show the real results, and because he has had nothing to do with this scene and the nonsense that it spouts, I hope he beats me this year, and I will
be the first one to congratulate him and buy him a beer........
To Pete Wood, thanks mate, never met you, hope to though, cause you are the one VW person who actually grasped what I'm trying to say, these are
AMAZING little machines, no matter who works on them and what engine you employ.
Come back to me Vwtool, cause I'd sure as hell like to make sure you have an entry form for Buladelah, so I'll photocopy it and send you one,
gratis, no excuses, and if you beat me, I'll be a man and buy a fellow VW person a beer too, instead of being what your title suggests....
[Edited on 19/5/2005 by GregWard]
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jakjones
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| posted on May 20th, 2005 at 07:15 AM |
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You will be treated well on this Forum only if you join the 1916 brigade,there are several standard answers to different topics and as soon as you
challenge these standard answers you will be cut down and treated like a Leppar.
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