| [ Total Views: 20454 | Total Replies: 129 | Thread Id: 44693 ] |
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 SHMO
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 12:53 PM |
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Yep,
I would have to agree about the wheels. They were simply the cheapest/strongest/shiniest wheels I could find when I first started the project. I am
working on replacments as we speak.
Registering my car in Australia probably wouldn't fly. it is not even technically legal here. Luckily where I live we do not have inspections, and it
started out as a standard run of the mill beetle. I just continued to pay the licensing as I built it. If I lived in California it would be a whole
different story. I am sure I will eventually run into problems with law enforcement and have to take it off the streets. But, for the most part I
built it to use in Baja Mexico. You can do anything you want down there...haha
Wes, don't cut your car short. I have checked it out. That thing is nice! Very well done. I plan on picking your brain a lot regarding that car (if
you don't mind).
SHMO
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vw2b
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 04:55 AM |
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Cool thread good to see someone backing up what they have to say with some quality graphics.
A question though ... in the two Baja's shown I can see how the air gets out the back after going through the radiator, how do you think it will go
in a Beetle, with decklid on ? If you get the flow in will it be able to get out ??
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SHMO
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 07:13 AM |
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Some might disagree with me, but in a standard beetle I would definately mount the rad up front.
SHMO
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 10:35 AM |
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I would probably put it in the front in a beetle too.
A beetle would need a decklid with lots of holes of louvres in the top halve of it, or a decklid propped open. Or a combination of both.
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Secoh
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 01:05 PM |
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Wes, would a short spoiler/diffuser across the back of the bonnet help with the poor aerodynamics of the flat screen?
In regards to the airflow to the radiator your calculations are looking at pressure differences, but would not a major aspect of radiator requirements
be air volume? ie, high pressure through a small but wide scoop under the car, opening to the large radiator area to create lower pressure but higher
volume of air movement through the radiator?
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!  |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 21st, 2005 at 07:33 PM |
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my calculations are not based on pressure. They are based on flow. I created an air fluid domain with an inlet boundary condition of 100kph air on the
left, and an outlet boundary condition of 100kph air on the right. What happens in between is all calculated. The diagrams I have shown are air
velocity, I haven't plotted any pressure contour maps. The pressure contour maps aren't that exciting. The screenshots I posted show high air flow
through the radiator area.
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StenGuns
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 04:57 PM |
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Wes..
One of my DC's is currently getting some body treatment by Brendan up your way.. All this talk of airflow has got me thinking about how i will cool
the planned 1uzfe V8.. While Brendan is flaring the back guards out, perhaps I should be thinking of working an airflow duct on each side in front of
guard, testarossa style!!..
Not sure how this would be fabricated but with a large capacity duct on both sides flowing air onto a mid mounted radiator set up (maybe a rad opposed
either side).. I am sure that would provide me a cooling solution (not to mention a subtle styling).. What do you think?.. Rob
PS: I'm not looking anymore.. got 3 DC projects.. dave becker is rebuilding a 1916 in the one in SYD, Brendan is creating a monster in BNE and I have
another in Melbourne that is waiting for a plan..
Cheers
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
I wouldn't say me and Brad are VW legends. However we do know a thing or two about engine conversions, and I'm sure Brad has already done more
conversions than nearly everyone on this forum (we do have a few good experienced guys here) and tried a lot of different theories in the process.
I only post in posts that I know something about. Unlike some people on this forum that post in posts they pretend to know something about, or just
can't help themselves from wanting to sound like they know something.
How about the pessimists in this post go elsewhere. This is a good thread with some good info. I don't want to have to moderate peoples posts.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 06:22 PM |
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Sten, you should talk to Kimm at Indian before you do anything else. His DC is the ultimate setup for cooling. it runs cool at nearly 200km/h.
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StenGuns
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 08:20 PM |
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Thanks Pete.. I've had a look at Kimm Garlands setup.. Was a couple of years ago and I had forgotten some of what he had done.. From memory there are
some things he would do differently but overall, a great package.. At this stage, while fabrication is happening in sunny QLD, I thought the ducts in
front of the guards need to be decided on.. Otherwise I will need to retrofit which I want to avoid.. Those big ducts on Kimm's dual cab look great..
I would want to blend them in somehow with flared guards, baja style!.. This image borrows Kimms setup and show the challenge on a baja bus.. I am
sure with some creative thinking it can be done and made to look very good! Anycase.. food for thought..
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
Sten, you should talk to Kimm at Indian before you do anything else. His DC is the ultimate setup for cooling. it runs cool at nearly 200km/h.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 10:39 PM |
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I just thought I'd give people an update on my radiator set-up.
We have just had the hottest December on record here in Brisbane, and this has highlighted the weakness of my radiator set-up. One particularly hilly
road with a very long steep 80kph cause the temp guage to start rising, and anywhere doing 100kph or above would cause it to climb all the way to
HOT.
So I decided I had to pull my finger out and develop the scoop idea.
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 10:44 PM |
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Hi
The weather we’ve been having will test any cooling system, it will be interesting to see if your scoop helps Wes.
I wonder how, Jak, boof and Paul are getting on at the moment with their Subaru bugs?
Steve
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subibaja
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 10:55 PM |
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well i just spent the last week on fraser in this heat.
my car dosnt like the slow crawl through the soft stuff.
it manages to get a litle hot so i shut it down for about 20 minutues aand off i go again .
i think it is due to the fact that i have the radiator in the front of my car and the amount of water being cooled in the radiator is smaller than the
amount of water in the line . if you get what i mean
its a ej22 in a baja
and found it does like passing bogged 4wd cars whilst i have my trailer on
terry
[ Edited on 3-1-2006 by subibaja ]
anyone who says it's bad to put subaru motors in vw's.....
hasnt got a clue about smoooooooooth
terry
brisbane
0403252522
you know who i am
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Brad
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 10:58 PM |
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pics terry ..
Subi Baja has a small ass Golf Radiator in the front and I reckon once we duct the air better and give the pickup a greater cross sectional area and
thus increase pressure and flow it will cool fine .. then we can add a/c :>
[ Edited on 3-1-2006 by Buggy Brad ]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 11:05 PM |
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Steve, you got in too fast  (my computer wouldn't load the webpage for
some reason)
So for a scoop I decided to just test an idea first, and added 1 simple scoop to only 1 side. It is only 130mm wide. I just welded a bit of angle to
the front of the shock cannister on the trailing arm, and then bolted a bit of checker plate to it.
I attached it to the arm because then the scoop is always a fixed height off the ground. If I had mounted it on the pan, then the scoop would have
gotten very close to the ground when I went over big bumps offroad.
So I took it for a drive today (it was 34, but probably only 30 by the time I hit the road).
First test was the long 80kph hill. I went up it at a little over 80kph in 3rd, no probs. I had noticed the gauge was now usually sitting slightly
below half way rather than slightly above half way.
Then I found a fast open stretch of road. I tried 100kph, no problems. I tried 110kph, no problems. I tried 120kph, the gauge started going up but
only got to the old slightly above half way position, and then went back to the new slightly below half way position. It keeps doing this, slightly
above and slightly below half way.
I figured it is doing this because before the thermos must have been on 100% of the time on their high speed setting (slightly above halfway). Where
as now it gets warm and them the low speed setting quickly brings the temp back to below half way, the fan goes off and it gets warm all over again.
So before it was struggling to not overheat with the thermos on high the whole time. Now it stays cool and the thermo switches on and off low speed
during extended high speed driving. This is with only a single 130mm wide simple scoop.
So next I just need to add a second scoop (then hopefully the themos will never turn on), and work out how to make the lower part of the scoop less
prone to damage offroad. I am thinking I will probably just crawl under and unbolt the scoop for serious offroading.
So the fancy CFD computer modelling was right. All I needed was a simply scoop.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 11:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by subibaja
my car dosnt like the slow crawl through the soft stuff.
it manages to get a litle hot so i shut it down for about 20 minutues aand off i go again .
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mine was the opposite. The thermos would deal with the slow stuff no worries, they just couldn't keep up with pushing a brick like Baja through the
air at highway speeds.
Even when my did get hot (all the way to the H) I only needed to pull over and let it idle for 3-5 minutes and then it was fine. The MX6 thermos work
really well as they are shrouded and designed for the MX6 radiator. Last time it got that hot was driving over a mountain range full of camping gear
in 42 degree heat (after a trip to landcruiser mountain park).
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subaruboxer
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| posted on January 4th, 2006 at 04:00 AM |
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Hi Wes,
well done, i decided a few weeks ago to use the heater for some extra cooling. I don´t need to install a heater to get it registered. My radiator is
up front, but i want to get a sleeper look (as little openings for the rad as possible). I couldn´t test the idea because it is winter overhere. The
heater is mounted just above the area where you put your scoop! But now with your fine results from a little scoop, i am sure it will work. Thanks
man!!
Jörg
[ Edited on 26-3-2006 by subaruboxer ]
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gerrelt
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| posted on January 4th, 2006 at 05:35 AM |
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Wow, Wes, that's really good news!! It's really great to read about some real live experiences!
This gives me convidence that I might also pull this thing of.
Thanx for sharing your results, I really appreciate it!
:thumb
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pete wood
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| posted on January 4th, 2006 at 05:24 PM |
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Good stuff Wes. Mine runs really cool too. It's amazing what a bit of ducting can do, but I'm still inclined to say, stick the radiator up front.
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gerrelt
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| posted on February 13th, 2006 at 05:49 AM |
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This is how far I am at the moment:
from the back:
I plan on creating air-deflectors under the radiator to make sure ALL the air goes through the radiator.
I will probably make a box out of foam and epoxy to cover the radiator.
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SHMO
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| posted on March 26th, 2006 at 06:04 PM |
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Well it's been awhile since I've posted, but I thought I would show some of the progress on my rad install. My plan will be an all aluminum
framework to house the rad, and it will serve dual purpose function as ductwork to direct the airflow as well. I can remove the entire structure
fairly easily for service work or repairs. I was apprehensive about bolting the aluminum radiator directly to any mounts, so I incorporated a setup in
the framework that sandwhiches the rad completely in rubber. It should provide excellent support, even during hard off road use. Here is what it looks
like so far.
Trimmed out the rear of the car
Built an aluminum framework to support the rad.
This framework will eventually be sheeted with aluminum and will then act as a ductwork to direct airflow.
This is how the framework will install into the car.
SHMO
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crewcabconnection
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| posted on March 26th, 2006 at 07:08 PM |
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Was talking to the Chief on the weekend about a secret project ... and he made a good comment/observation about water power, in relation to his DC.
"When it's run for 10 years with no problems and can still crack 200km/h, then you can say it works, until then, it's a great idea that's being
tested".
He was talking at the time about a bus that has changed hands a few times over recent years with 'hot' turbo issues.
He also swears that the box is where the money needs to go to a) not destroy it and b) to give the motor an 'as near to pre-VW' performance
experience as possible.
Anyway, don't pretend to understand all this hi-tech stuff, but thought the comment was apt for the time.
I am in awe of what you Sube-boys are doing ... droool
Loves a lolcat
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gerrelt
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| posted on March 27th, 2006 at 04:28 AM |
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Hey SHMO,
great to see you're back on your project, it's looking good!
This is how far I am with my radiator in the back:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~gmolhoek/alfa/placing_radiator/index.htm
Air-channels from under the car:
http://home.tiscali.nl/~gmolhoek/alfa/air_scoops_channels/index.htm
See the complete story on:
http://www.gerrelt.nl
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SHMO
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| posted on March 27th, 2006 at 07:33 AM |
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gerrelt ,
it's looking good. I will be anxious to hear how well it works. It would have been nice to open up the size of the intake in your airbox. A funnel
shape would work well in that situation, allowing the incoming air to spread out and cover a larger section of the radiator.
How are you going about directing the airflow into and out of the car/radiator? Will you be incorporating some ductwork of some sort, or just allowing
it to come into the airbox and then free flow out into the parcel area?
SHMO
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gerrelt
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| posted on March 27th, 2006 at 07:54 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SHMO
it's looking good. I will be anxious to hear how well it works.
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Thanx! Yeah, I'm anxious to know too...
| Quote: |
It would have been nice to open up the size of the intake in your airbox. A funnel shape would work well in that situation, allowing the incoming air
to spread out and cover a larger section of the radiator.
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Yeah, I have been thinking about that, but because of the easier way this can be fabricated, I just did it like this. And somehow, without scientific
background, I think the airbox shouldnt be too big. I am hoping that the airbox will be presurized by the incoming air, and then the air will spread
itself over the radiator.
| Quote: |
How are you going about directing the airflow into and out of the car/radiator? Will you be incorporating some ductwork of some sort, or just allowing
it to come into the airbox and then free flow out into the parcel area?
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After the air passes through the radiator it's just free flow into the (boxed) parcel area, and into the engine compartment. There it will have to
pass out of the car through the vents under the rear window, the vents in the rear decklid and the opening behind the licenseplate light and the
license plate. And I wil not use a rear decklid rubber seal.
Outgoing warm air won't be much of a problem for you, isn't it? Your car being a Baja.
Man, I was tempted to Baja the rear end of my car... The fitting of the Alfa engine is really close to the rear apron... But it wouldn't make any
sense what so ever. It's a super beetle, and there isn't any big wilderness here in Holland to go real offroading (we don't even have real
mountains...).
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SHMO
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| posted on April 1st, 2006 at 11:16 AM |
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This is a little off topic, but I am ordering some parts for my Engine conversion, and I wondered what some of you have been using for throttle cable
setups. I have looked into the morse cables, and even tinkered with the idea of converting a stock Bus cable to work somehow. Just wondering if anyone
has a good approach at doing a nice setup for a conversion motor using a GM or similar throttle body. Pics of your installs would be a HUGE help
Thanks,
SHMO
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subawee
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| posted on April 1st, 2006 at 03:05 PM |
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throttle cable
| Quote: | Originally
posted by SHMO
This is a little off topic, but I am ordering some parts for my Engine conversion, and I wondered what some of you have been using for throttle cable
setups. I have looked into the morse cables, and even tinkered with the idea of converting a stock Bus cable to work somehow. Just wondering if anyone
has a good approach at doing a nice setup for a conversion motor using a GM or similar throttle body. Pics of your installs would be a HUGE help
Thanks,
SHMO
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Hi SHMO,
I just went to a motorcycle shop and had them make me up a cable. They offered a heavy duty cable with almost any type of ends you want. Their cable
housings and cable come in rolls and can be cut to any lenth you need.
One other possibility is a company here in Utah called Six States Distributors. I found out about them after I had already had mine made up, they
sell a cable and housing that can bend as tight as a 3" radius and stil work.
Hope this helps,
Bob J.
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gerrelt
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| posted on April 7th, 2006 at 06:36 AM |
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Now, SHMO got me thinking....
I thought that the radiator would create enough of a restriction so that the airbox would be pressurized. But then I tested this by blowing air
through the radiator with my air-compressor. It went right through without much restriction.... Because of that I decided that I indeed needed scoops
at the air-outlet. I didn't want to make it too complex, I created one scoop per air-outlet:
[ Edited on 6/4/2006 by gerrelt ]
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GeorgeL
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| posted on April 8th, 2006 at 03:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by gerrelt
Now, SHMO got me thinking....
I thought that the radiator would create enough of a restriction so that the airbox would be pressurized.
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The amount of pressurization from ram air is very small. At these low pressures the radiator does provide a considerable restriction. With a running
vehicle you could check this with manometers on either side of the radiator to see the pressure drop.
George
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gerrelt
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| posted on April 8th, 2006 at 06:29 PM |
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| Quote: |
The amount of pressurization from ram air is very small. At these low pressures the radiator does provide a considerable restriction. With a running
vehicle you could check this with manometers on either side of the radiator to see the pressure drop.
George
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Ah, that's good to know! I tested with 3 bar with my air-compressor. I will never create 3 bar in my airbox!
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GeorgeL
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| posted on April 10th, 2006 at 07:07 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by gerrelt
| Quote: |
The amount of pressurization from ram air is very small. At these low pressures the radiator does provide a considerable restriction. With a running
vehicle you could check this with manometers on either side of the radiator to see the pressure drop.
George
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Ah, that's good to know! I tested with 3 bar with my air-compressor. I will never create 3 bar in my airbox!
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Well, perhaps if you were reentering from orbit...
Keep in mind that the pressure drop isn't a bad thing. It is the drop that moves the air from one side of the radiator to the other! No pressure
drop = no airflow!
The CFD analysis earlier in this thread was very interesting. I've never seen a Beetle shape run through that sort of analysis. One problem with
CFD is that a beetle is a very complex 3-D shape, and the bumpers, fenders, etc. all contribute to turbulance that creates a thick irregular boundary
layer around the car, particularly underneath, that doesn't show up with CFD unless you make a very detailed model (and have a lot of processing
power to run it!). It would be fun to instrument a few running radiator conversions to see if the actual results are similar to the 2-D
simulations.
Another thought pops to mind. A few years back there was a mini-fad of replacement hoods for Beetles that featured Rolls-Royce- and '30s Ford-styled
grilles. It would be interesting to see if these grilles could conceal a real radiator setup and still retain the spare tire. The air exit would
probably have to be about halfway along the hood, since there is a high pressure region directly in front of the base of the windshield.
George
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