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 The_Bronze.
A.k.a.: Bronze
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| posted on March 19th, 2003 at 07:44 PM |
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Yawn.
Sport - Religion - Politics
:bounce The Three Monkeys. :bounce
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
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Hutcho
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| posted on March 19th, 2003 at 07:59 PM |
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Yeah..
"quote by Bronze....
sport- religion- politics.
The three monkeys"
Arent they one and the same thing??
Im not commenting on anything I know nothing about....
Sounds ignorant, but I dont believe the Western media (who are they run by) and I dont know the "world leaders" on a personal level.
Well, thats my cop out!
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geodon
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| posted on March 19th, 2003 at 08:12 PM |
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I am deeply saddened & disapointed by this debate!
The Humanitarian Argumement is distinctly one sided.
The removal of a brutal dictator who will probably be a menace to world peace in the future & the establishment of democracy in Iraq WILL cost
civilian lives but they wll NOT be targeted directly. No, this is no consolation to the victims, but read on. The ignoring of a brutal dictator WILL
cost far, far more civilian lives & they WILL be targeted directly as in the past eg political prisoners, the Kurds in the North (approx 200,000),
the Shia in the South (at least 100,000), the civilians of Iran and the civilians of Kuwait. And we would STILL have the dictator in control.
The Americans & NOT the Islamo-facists are the worst terrorists in the world???? America is probably the most democratic country in the world-
the classic oxymoron!!! Yes they have made mistakes but I suggest proponents of this do an internet search for the Marshall Plan-1945 and the Berlin
Blocade in '48 to get a bit of balance.
The refs to "1984" by George Orwell are appropriate. Orwell also wrote "Animal Farm"- remember Napoleon the Pig- the
animal's leader who declared "Four legs=good; two legs=bad". T'would appear that has become:"pro-american=Bad,
anti-American=Good.
And WHY has there been no comment about the French! If they had not declared their Veto in advance, there was a good chance there would have been a
majority UN vote to kick Saddam out. Now (19/3) their Foreign Minister has declared that if Iraq uses chemical weapons in the coming conflict, they
WILL commit troops! Diplomatic whores!!!
Anyway, it'll be over in less than a month-I look forward to the debate afterwards. If i'm wrong, I'll be the 1st to admit it. I
suspect those with opposite views won't- as they have in the past: eg when American and other lives were on the line defending the muslims of
Bosnia & Kosovo- the silence from the Left & the militant Islamists was deafening!
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Spook
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 06:59 AM |
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What about the French?
The French have refused to sanction any action until it was PROVEN these weapons exist.
To date this hasn't happened.
Our own legal system works the same way.
Innocence is presumed, GUILT MUST BE PROVEN.
We should all be happy it works that way.
Now, if Iraq uses one of these weapons, that is the proof the French have been asking for all along & they'll commit troops.
I can't see the problem with that.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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Buggy Boyz
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 10:16 AM |
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Have you noticed ??
When you sit back and read all the posts it is funny those who support the deployment to Iraq are willing to go and fight and as such prepared to die
for what they believe.
Those who are against are just wanting to get back to the head in the sand mentality of it isn’t our fight and we shouldn't be here. I
mean how many of those out there who object to this soon to be war have even been to one of these anti war marches to show their support and donate a
small snippet of their time ?
I have some very good mates who are currently over in the sandy place and I think it is absolute bull shit that people in Australia , enjoying the
freedom that exists because of people like these are not supporting them. We live in a democracy; our democratically elected PM has made the decision.
No one likes a winger, the ref has blown his whistle so lets get on with the game.
I am all for debate but once the decision is made I think we should start supporting our team we owe them that much. |
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syncro
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 04:08 PM |
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Heard of "the project for a new American century"if you haven't then you should definately find out about them and thier mission.
http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V14/4/dreyfuss-r.html
Very concerning, unless you think and American world government is a good idea,which I personaly think isn't.
Check out the names of the members,a virtual who's who of the Bush administration!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Steve
[Edited on 20-3-2003 by syncro]
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waltermitty
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 04:34 PM |
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Brad you sound a bit like Jack Nicholson
"THE TRUTH YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH"
I personally have attended the Sydney peace rally, took the whole family it was an enlightning and gratifying experience old people young , every
peoples, overwhelming.
Apart from that my only anti war actions have been to debate it her and at work and with family and friends.
Thats about it but i do think that I have a genuine concern/intrest/investment with my actions .
Brad if your friends in the sandy place arnt drivin baja abd buggie up and down Australian beaches then I also respect what they are doing and fear
for them as well. (ALL) Gods bless them.
Mitchell (not wm)  .
RESTORE NOT WAR
23 windows ...8 too many!
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pangalactic
A.k.a.: jeezus cheeses
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 07:11 PM |
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Hoo Haa
I havent been to this site in a while, some interesting points of view on this topic.
I thought i might join the band wagen and air my ramblings. Ive recently discharged from the ADF after just over 8 years (army and raaf) and i dont
believe that 'signing up' for the ADF gives anyone moral high ground to debate this issue as someone has suggested.
My main personal beef is with the way our current gov. seems to keep asking so much from our ADF to push its own agendas when it spends less on the
military by GDP than most western countries that do alot less.
Also my main concern isnt so much with the war,( even if it is illegal). Its with the aftermath and how the US decides to form a 'democracy'
in Iraq. With the semi autonomous Kurds in the north being eyed off by the Turks, the Sunni muslem majority in the south calling for a new jihad and
every other muslim group in the middle east getting some mileage out of this mess.
Another thing that annoyed me was the French/ Russian veto threat, this is the same France that sank the rainbow warrior, tested nuclear bombs in the
pacific and with Russia has invested shit loads of money in oil in Iraq. No one seems to be asking the Iraquis if they dont mind being subject to an
economic embargo for another 10 years or how ever long it takes for Saddam to drop dead and disarm.
And to be fair you cant help but be cynical of the US/UK's motives from the way they let the Iraqui revolt down after the last gulf war, and put
saddam and his weapons there in the first place.
At the end of the day its all about oil, or more importantly the price of oil as determined by OPEC. If we dont like it we can stop driving our
vw's, otherwise you could argue we are all in a way responsible and it would be hypocrtical for us to argue some moral high ground. It also seems
as though you could argue on either point of view until the cows come home but i would rather the US held weapons of mass destruction then half of the
other nutbar governments of the world. And on whatever side of the fence your on you cannot help but feel for the ADF members that are forced into an
unpopular war. Keep driving to those protests folks!.
What was that old saying about opinions and arsholes
:P:vader
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Che Castro
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 07:45 PM |
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well i went today to a protest march.
It's not about weapons, there is another country that has been condemned the most times by the UN Security council and general assembly for its
weapons of mass destruction which it manufactures, and it's not Iraq, its Israel. They also have a miliaristic aggresive leader, as well as an
"army" who really are terrorists, they just use machines provided by their US buddies.
It's obviously not about weapons, its just stupid. The Iraqi people are only going to suffer, it can only add fuel to the fire of Extremist
terrorists. The war is absolutely ridiculous.
Jon
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waltermitty
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 08:10 PM |
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SYNCRO STEVE
that link you left leads us to some very very scary stuff . I would not have given it any creedance if not for the people involved.
Mitchell RnW
23 windows ...8 too many!
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kombiluva
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 08:19 PM |
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To hold high ground wins the battle!
Pangalactic,
At no time Have I stood on a soap box and preached what is right/wrong......
I have raised points of interest that it seems alot of people have overlooked. I do ask you to go over my post on this topic to correct me if I am
wrong!
As I am also a tax payer and a registered voter; I to may have my say in ref to these events, however it may or may not be the view of the ADF or the
government of the day........and putting over my opinion in this forum I choose to do so..........under one of my constitutional
rights........"Freedom Of Speech"! (Does the Iraqi people have FOS?)
As I have personal insight into that part of the world, (Lived in a tent, not in a ship or living at the Hilton at Kuwait Airport in 1998 as per the
RAAF last time!!)
I believe that I may have a little better insight into what, how, when, and why!
Cheers
PS I will now get down from my HIGH SOAP BOX...........
[Edited on 20-3-2003 by kombiluva] |
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jenz58
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| posted on March 20th, 2003 at 10:12 PM |
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Well it's on and happening:jesus I guess we knew it would but you live in hope.
I don't believe that any of the discussion has shown any disrespect for our troops, more about questioning the whole situation, is there a solid
valid reason to declare war, and concern for the civilians that get caught up in these actions.
We do have a few ex military on the forum and it sounds like a couple who have done service overseas. I have no idea what it is like to be sent into a
situation like this. I also feel for the families and wives of these troops, the saying goodbye and the seperation must be so hard. I hope they do all
return safely.
Realisticly, there will be lives lost from all sides, there will be people who love them and will miss them. Others will be mamed, and as Adz said
there are the children. These are all real people with real lives.
This is an unpopular war and one that will rewrite the books on warfare as the western allies are striking first. Saddam does need to be toppled, no
doubt. Lets hope it happens, and fast, now that the bombs have started to drop.
Lets hope not too many crazy terrorist groups see this as an opportunity/reason to take they own action. This is a real threat and could happen
anywhere, anytime, as we've seen.
Hey Peace rallies are good, you need them to bring a balance and to sustain discussion. People from all walks of life attend. Since September 11
rallies have brought about a great understanding or tolerance of ethnic communities within our own country for a lot of people. Hopefully we are lease
ignorant.
We are lucky we are here and can restore |
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Spook
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 12:43 AM |
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Yes, the ref has blown his whistle.
And the USA told him to shove it up his arse.
The UN is the ref, never Bush or Blair or Howard.
I object to this being called a war.
Embargos have starved Iraq for ten years, weapons inspectors have not found any weapons of mass destruction , but they've gone in anyway.
That's an invasion, not a war.
As for what it will do for the extremist fringe. Figure it out for yourself.
If half the "christian" world thinks this is unjustified, what do the moslems think??
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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Kubel Rat
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 02:19 AM |
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What i find really Scary!
For all the Arguments this Government & the US has used for the use of Force against the Iraqi Leadership, i am reminded of this quote.....
" Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of their
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in any country"
-- Hermann Goering "
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fatboy
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 03:32 AM |
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I'm no Hippy
I'm no stranger to violence, violent situations or even acts of terrorism.
I was brought up in Manchester and one of my most vivid memeries of my childhood ( about 7 years old) was having a class at school on how to recognise
letterbomds. It was the mid 70's when the IRA were at their most active, kids were losing hands from mail bombs.
Things like that do have an effect on you and generally I became quite a violent person.
By the age of 13 I had been violently mugged 3 times so I started learning Martial Arts. I went on to teach and won a bronze medal in the national
full contact championships. By the age of 16 I had left school and lying about my age was working on the doors of some of the roughest pubs in
Manchester.
I went on to own and run my own pubs in and around the NW of england as a result of which at various times I have been stabbed, shot at and had the
sh1t kicked out of me countless times at one point I even had a contract put out on me!.
When argentina invaded the Falkands I believed (and still do ) in the action that England took and tried (Unsuccsefully) to join up and do my bit.
Years later when the gulf war mark 1 happened I also belived in and supported the action.
When the IRA set off the initial bomb that blew up the centre of Manchester (destroying the place I was married ) they had even sat down and thought
about the routes the police would use to divert people away and had planted a secondary device in that direction fortunatley the people who were
caught up in the second blast (Including my mum) only recieved minor injuries.
What amazes me is that if someone who has historically been as pro war and as anti-terrorism as me and who has been exposed to decades of terrorist
activity can see that this situation we have been placed in is farcical then how the hell can "Normal" people not?
A quote I heard from Jonny H was "I wont be swayed by public opinion" - I find that horrifying.
Those of you that support this war need to think about Jonny George and Tony ignoring public opinion - Ignoring their own advisors to acheive their
own agendas' - be it oil, ego or simply that when they were elected it was a close thing and the voting public love a good war. Even Stormin
Normin the hero of Desert Storm has declared this as an unjust war.
I believe that (just one of the things) that makes our country great is the basic principle of Innocent until proven guilty.
The purpose of the UN has just been nullified.
Sept 11 had nothing to do with this war
Bali had nothin to do with this war
Iraq was virtually destroyed 12 years ago and is not capable of posing a serious threat to anyone - Which is probably why the US is so keen - after
all if they picked on N Korea someone might shoot back.
This situation saddens me. I honestly thought that the thinking world had progressed pass this stage.
When we next see an aussie / english / american building blown up no doudt it will be described as an act of terrorism when in fact it will be an act
of WAR and therefore justified .
Well thats about it from me - I've never before been ashamed of being english (Apart from the whole cricket thing) or of living in australia but
if nothing else it has spurred me on to become a citizen so I can express myself to Johnny in the fashion he has suggested.
Keep a lookout for me at the next peace demo - I'll be the one in the suit
Hitler had hirohito now bush has Howard - on with the invasion.
Heil Howard does have a bit of a ring to it.
and to quote Lennon "Give peace a chance"
[Edited on 20-3-2003 by fatboy]
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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jenz58
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 10:57 PM |
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Hey Steve, I'll meet up
Vee Dubbers for Peace:sandrine |
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70AutoStik
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 11:04 PM |
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Maybe I'm just getting old; but some people seem to be a little naive. I am as opposed to going to war as anyone: I had to put down The
Australian today as tears formed in my eye, reading of the war, and I am currently reading "We were soldiers once, and young" - a very
graphic account of the (real) Vietnam War. But the decision has been made; by people with a heck of a lot more information on the real situation, and
I feel it is time for Aussies to stop being a pack of whingers and start thinking about the brave men who are trying to fight for what we [supposedly]
believe in. I, myself, will be praying for a minimal loss of life and property (especially for the innocent of any race or creed,) not indulging in
meaningless protests where they don't belong.
If any of you are whingeing Aussies (it seems we stole that title from the poms,) continue to whinge, but will all real Aussies please stand up and
believe in this great country of ours?
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jenz58
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| posted on March 21st, 2003 at 11:55 PM |
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We are not denying the sacrifices made by our troops. They are in there doing their job as ordered, some willingly and others questioning from what I
can gather from what we are fed via the media or word of mouth.
My father served through the entirity of WW 2, from the Middle East in Tobruk, onto New Guinea and the Pacific. He faught in a war that he felt had to
be faught, he questioned Vietnam as most people did in the end.
Never did he or have I ever denied the bravery and sacrifices our troops make. I hope that they realise that most people think this same way. I have
listen to old soldiers talk and watched them meet from childhood, I have nursed them and have great respect for them.
There are ethics in warfare, a code of war. Let's hope that we are honourable in warfare. The western allies have been first to attack. My father
had great respect for Romel, an enemy, who he saw he faught within the code unlike the Gestapo. I was brought up on discussion, as have my children.
It does not deny the honourability of anyone unless it is seen knowingly going out to harm others with out provication or full justification of
actions.
What Saddam needs is a rebellion from within his own country, for the Iraqi people to bring his dictatorship down. Well, if from what we here about
his money getting frozen then maybe he can't pay for his minders. Here's hoping.
The real threat is the terrorist groups who will use this war in their anti western rhetoric to gain support and justify their actions.
Let's hope that the money promised to the Iraqi people gets used as intended and gives them back the power to govern their own country, that they
are productive, and that they do not become dependent on the US dollar as so many other countries do, such as in the Pacific where their cultures are
eroding away. This is a very big issue.
This is not a simplictic debate, and one that non of us is taking lightly I'm sure. |
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Kubel Rat
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 09:51 AM |
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Dictatorship?
Well i have to question a Prime minister & his Government when he says:
I will NOT be persuaded by public opinion!
(sounds like a Dictatorship to me)
Well Stupid me for thinking that the Government was there to act on the peoples behalf (apparently it is there to act on it's own interests)
The Iraq War is just one step in destabilizing the entire region so the US can implement it's own "friendly" Governments & secure
it's Oil interests.
We pay a $1.05 a liter for petrol, the US pay AU $ .70c a Gallon!
Who is going to pay for this Basket case of a country (Iraq) when the war is over? us!:cussing
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Spook
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 12:54 PM |
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This is where the powers that be stuff with your mind.
Even if you don't support the war, you should support our troops???
That's hypochrosy.
The best I will do is hope that they come home in the same condition that they left in. Sooner rather than later.
But wish them luck with what they are doing? No, I can't do that.
Howard said: your beef is wth me, I sent the troops. They are following orders.
Bush said: I was following orders will not be a defence.
Or does that only apply to one side?
Then we have the two leaders that we, as Australians, are meant to have blind faith in.
Little Johnny.
A man who will not be swayed by popular opinion.
Not bad for a man who only got the job through popular opinion.
& G. I. George.
For those people with a short memory, this guy didn't even get outright elected.
He got the presidency through litigation.
A judge made him president, not the people.
Makes me wonder if this would be going down if the judge had made Dan Quale president.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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Kubel Rat
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 08:48 PM |
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:o
It was also Bush who said "If this is a Dictatorship, that's OK as long as i am the Head of it!":o
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waltermitty
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 09:42 PM |
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Exellent responses guys ,Its very heartening to think that so many people have responded in this thread and so articulately as well .
Its not so much what your point of view is more that you have one and are prepared to share it, that is very healthy.
Mitchell .
RESTORE NOT WAR
23 windows ...8 too many!
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amazer
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 10:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by amazer
Judging by the number of US casualties in Gulf I and already in Gulf2 from friendly fire, hummer crashes, crashed helicopters etc...
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OK so maybe pommies cant fly either. My count is 3 helicopters + 21 allies down with no involvement by iraq. If I was saddam i'd hide until the
coalition of the willing eliminates itself.
all these weapons of mass destruction that saddam is hiding. why isnt he using them now? he's saving them for what?
I guess General Cosgrove wont be on Bush's xmas card list. The americans say aussie soldiers found W.O.M.D and he comes out and says "its a
complete furphy" Got a laugh out of that one. An ally is killing the propaganda effort.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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fatboy
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| posted on March 22nd, 2003 at 11:07 PM |
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Watching Sat News early this evening and the reporter said words to the effect of "Despite what you have heard from official channels of no
civilian impact I can confirm that there are in fact 207 civilian casulaties, Hopefully I will be travelling to Bagdad hospital later..."
At that point the plug was pulled and we returned to the studio.
So the deception and misinfo continues
I used to have great problems understanding how certain people get elected and how some decisions get made until a friend pointed out that half the
population of any country are below average intelligence.
Think about it... an average is halfway between the lowest and the highest.. certainley explains a lot
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Kubel Rat
Casual Dubber
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Registered: March 19th, 2003
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Location: Orange NSW Au
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| posted on March 23rd, 2003 at 01:26 PM |
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Shock & Awe
Is it just me or does the Media seem to be too eager for the "Shock & Awe" aspect of the War......you could almost see them pleading for
the "Big Show" while the rest of us want none of it....& i don't think it was because it was sensationalist news to report.....i
think they are getting off on it!:o
While the Anti War demonstrations are given the back seat on the news.
W.O.M.D this is a very interesting situation....the Americans have to find some to justify this War.....But they can also Argue that they need to
Disarm/Destroy them apon imediate discovery, even to the point of Destroying them in the containment facilities BEFORE the Iraqi's can use
them!
A very interesting situation indeed!
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waltermitty
Custom Title Time!
Legend when my beer goggles are on
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| posted on March 23rd, 2003 at 05:19 PM |
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W.O.M.D. i dont think that the Americans will have any problem finding Weapons Of Mass Destruction to justify thier"cause".
What I dont /we wont know is if the weapons they find were there before they Americans or they bring them with them.
Mitchell.
RESTORE NOT WAR.
23 windows ...8 too many!
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jenz58
Scirocco Rare
Postal Menace
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| posted on March 23rd, 2003 at 09:06 PM |
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Must admit I'm finding the terms used for this war a bit tasteless, very typical media hype. 'Shock & Awe', 'Awesome',
'Stunning'
Who has notice the fireworks effect in the new bombs so that it makes it all look a little nicer and more 'stunning' to watch maybe. Forget
that there are people down there.
Give me the ABC news at least they do contain themselves a bit and use these catch words a lot less.
Very sad about that journo. Also about other lives lost |
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Kubel Rat
Casual Dubber
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| posted on March 23rd, 2003 at 09:25 PM |
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'Shock & Awe'
Yes but the Term 'Shock & Awe' was The term those US Hitlerites came up with to scare the Sheite out of the Iraqi's, it's not
a Media Term........Although they do love to use the term & see the effects of it.
As for the "Sparkling effects" of the Ordanance used i suspect it is more a by-product of either the Explosive filler,the casing of the
Weapons or the internals.
Concider also what a Tomahawk is made up of...lots of internal electronics for guidance: Silicon,copper,solder,gold,magnesium etc, the payload,the
outer casing & a Jet engine.
[Edited on 23-3-2003 by Kubel Rat]
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on March 24th, 2003 at 07:38 AM |
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Some questions you won't find in Trivial Pursuit...
01) Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty different countries since 1945?
02) Which is the only country to have used nuclear weapons?
03) Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, in a botched assassination attempt, thereby making it
the most lethal terrorist bombing in modern Middle East history?
04) Which country's illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a "classic case" of terrorism?
05) Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua
in 1986, and then vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling on all states to observe international law?
06) Which country was accused by a UN-sponsored truth commission of providing "direct and indirect support" for "acts of genocide"
against the Mayan Indians in Guatemala during the 1980s?
07) Which country unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty in December 2001?
08) Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the Biological Weapons Convention and brought an international
conference on the matter to a halt in July 2001?
09) Which country prevented the United Nations from curbing the gun trade at a small arms conference in July 2001?
10) Aside from Somalia, which is the only other country in the world to have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?
11) Which is the only Western country which allows the death penalty to be applied to children?
12) Which is the only G7 country to have refused to sign the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, forbidding the use of landmines?
13) Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in 1998?
14) Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing a 1987 General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism?
15) Which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the United Nations yet reserves its right to veto United Nations resolutions?
Answer to all 15 questions:
The United States of America.
The new moral dictators of the world??????
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waltermitty
Custom Title Time!
Legend when my beer goggles are on
Posts: 1993
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| posted on March 24th, 2003 at 04:07 PM |
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Jens I know what you mean its the goul aspect .
How sad that an Aussie Journo gets killed and the story in the Sydney Sunday papers is burried on page 7 and 5 .Poor bastard.
Mitchell.
RESTORE NOT WAR
23 windows ...8 too many!
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