| [ Total Views: 6031 | Total Replies: 132 | Thread Id: 75230 ] |
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 silver
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 06:22 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DUBB61
I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is
overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia
went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers
starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people
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Keeping it real !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 07:46 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by volumex
Where did you find that one?
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http://www.seecon.org.uk/2009-ppt-pdfs/seec-Green-Car-Guide.pdf
| Quote: | If some or all of
the electricity was derived from renewable sources then it would also effect the comparison.
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Yes.
| Quote: | This sort of
conversion isn't about numbers, it is about a lifestyle choice based on minimising your personal carbon footprint. I applaud those with the courage,
drive, tenacity and money to take this step. I believe that in the future they will be able to sleep soundly knowing that they did all they could to
minimize the climate problems that we are going to face in 25/50/100 years time.
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If you really wanted to minimise your footprint you'd ride a push bike, not buy a bug TV, not sit at your computer on the internet, use only fluro
light bulbs... There are heaps of things that will be more benefitical than an electric conversion. If everyone in Australia started driving electric
cars then we would just have a major electricity shortage problem, something we already get at peak load in summer when people use air conditioning.
If you want to do the conversion for fun then that's fine, but you can't tell me your saving the environment, because currently your not really. A
guy at my work is trying to make an electric car and recharge it from a wind mill that he is converting into a wind generator. When he is done then he
can tell people how he's saving the environment.
I replaced every light in my house with a fluro light, and that probably does more for saving the environment than driving an electric car will. Just
like you pro electric car people have an opinion, you need to let other people have their own opinions too. You can take or leave the info I give, I
don't consider myself biased.
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 08:29 AM |
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Hi
This is a great thread.
Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone
forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.
Steve
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silver
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 09:07 AM |
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If I wanted to install a V12 in my car I doubt anyone would have mentioned the carbon debate
this is an engine conversion discussion! The Carbon thing is not a factor in my thought process (even if it should be)
I am fairly green without trying though
my tv is an LCD
I don't have an Airconditioner
I don't have a wood fireplace
and I think I'll stop eating baked beans! that will help the environment too! I wonder how much methane is produced per litre of milk? it is an
endless debate..
I can't save the planet
I could keep the 1776 shove a hose up my bum and hook it up to the dellortos, problem solved
smoking pot adds Carbon to the atmosphere too you know!
Keeping it real !
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matara
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 09:39 AM |
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Silver, what are you estimating the cost of the conversion to be? I looked into this and the costs were pretty similar over a 5 year period to running
electric versus petrol but that all depends on good battery life and regular battery conditioning. If you going to get a controller have a look at the
Zilla series. Its what that Datto probably uses, and is the next generation on from Curtis controllers.
Not sure if its been posted here before but these guys are worth getting in touch with:- http://www.aeva.asn.au/ and they have a Sydney branch too.
Last time I priced this up it was looking between $10k to $15k to convert your existing car. I'm not sure what you'd have to do to get it registered
as well, presumable engineering compliance etc.
Go for it, I think you'll never look back.
Cheers
Steve
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pete wood
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 10:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DUBB61
I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is
overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia
went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers
starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people
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better stop having sex then as well mate. that's the only way to garrantee no babies. can't see that happening either. the internet would dissappear
as the need for p0rn industry that drives it would dry up overnight....the organizied crime heavies wouldn't be happy about that. can you imagine
some big biker holding a gun to your head and telling you, "go home and have sex or your girlfriend gets it". 
BTW, I love the idea of electric, but I'm with others on the battery issue. also, the real user of power is weight. if your are serious about making
the car go long distances, get out you hole saw and start cutting. anything left in tact or that has to be there should be made out of plastic or
carbon fibre.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 11:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
This is a great thread.
Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone
forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.
Steve
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Steve,
The hydrogen isn't burned, it is just allowed to reform water. It's basically an electric car with the electricity made from H2, which is like the
battery.
So the question is where does the hydrogen come from? Well usually water. To make H2 from H2O takes a fair bit of electricity by traditional methods,
but you can allow the same arguements that you could do it with Solar or Wind electricity.
But the process is getting more efficient. There are catalysts that help. There are alternative methods being investigated such as producing H2 from
water using aluminium clusters. H2 is a byproduct of desalination plants (we are getting more and more of these in Australia). Honda have the HES IV
home H2 generator which uses natural gas to make the H2 and electricity / heating for your home.
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silver
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 06:39 PM |
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What they should do is make container ships electric
Keeping it real !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 07:00 PM |
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Not many power points to recharge in the ocean though...
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silver
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 07:07 PM |
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There is plenty of wind and sun though and it might save an oil spill, that just leaves
the dirty petrol bajas to drip oil on the beach
Keeping it real !
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t2
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 07:21 PM |
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this should spark some interest,
on the news tonight they say electricity is going up 20%.. mmmmmmmmm fact
gravity wont get you high
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 07:40 PM |
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Electricity up
Time to buy a Canyonero!
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Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 08:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by silver
that just leaves the dirty petrol bajas to drip oil on the beach
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Mine doesn't have a VW engine, so it doesn't drip oil
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 10:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by silver
I don't have a wood fireplace
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That smoke you will see in a month or so is from my place.
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 10:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
This is a great thread.
Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone
forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.
Steve
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Steve,
The hydrogen isn't burned, it is just allowed to reform water. It's basically an electric car with the electricity made from H2, which is like the
battery.
So the question is where does the hydrogen come from? Well usually water. To make H2 from H2O takes a fair bit of electricity by traditional methods,
but you can allow the same arguements that you could do it with Solar or Wind electricity.
But the process is getting more efficient. There are catalysts that help. There are alternative methods being investigated such as producing H2 from
water using aluminium clusters. H2 is a byproduct of desalination plants (we are getting more and more of these in Australia). Honda have the HES IV
home H2 generator which uses natural gas to make the H2 and electricity / heating for your home.
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Thanks Wes, its good to have boffin on hand
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on March 13th, 2009 at 07:28 AM |
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Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe so we'll never run out of it! It's the simplest element in chemistry - just one proton and one
electron.
When you burn something, you basically add oxygen and the process releases energy that can be used. For example, you burn methane (CH4) by adding two
lots of oxygen (2O2), and you end up with carbon dioxide (CO2) plus two lots of water (2H2O), plus heat. It works backwards too - you could start with
water and CO2, and rearrange them to recreate methane. But you would need to ADD energy - in fact the same amount of energy that would have been
released by burning methane. You never get something for nothing in science.
Water is basically burned hydrogen, which exists as a diatomic gas (H2). You use two lots of hydrogen (2H2), add oxygen (O2) and you get lots of heat
and two lots of water (2H2O) as a by-product. Burning hydrogen releases more energy per mass than any other chemical reaction - that's why the space
shuttle's main engines use hydrogen as a fuel. The trouble is that it is very hard to store - you can't just put hydrogen in a tank, like petrol.
You can compress it into a cylinder, like you do with acetylene or natural gas, but remember hydrogen is small and light. It leaks out very quickly,
no matter how well you make the seals (the hydrogen molecules slip through the seals, and even through the metal tank walls). Or, you could liquify it
in a cylinder like you do with LPG or propane, but hydrogen has a very low boiling point, even under high pressure. It won't stay liquid unless you
use expensive refrigeration to keep the tank at, say, minus 200 degrees or more. You have to use 'cryogenic' tank storage - too big, heavy and
complicated for cars.
The third alternative is the one used in hydrogen test cars, which stores hydrogen as a chemical mixture with other elements, usually a metal hydride.
The hydrogen is released when you add another chemical - a catalyst - to release the hydrogen. But this method is not very volume efficient - you
don't get to store as much hydrogen per tank volume as you would with leaky or supercold cylinders. It's the hydrogen storage that is the
problem.
Hydrogen can be burned in a normal (modified) piston engine, or more efficiently in a 'fuel cell' which creates electricity directly from the
hydrogen burning process. The Apollo command module used hydrogen fuel cells to create electricity, and water as a byproduct for the astronauts.
Volkswagen is working on more modern 'high temperature' fuel cells for auto use. http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6337.html
Hydrogen is easily created simply by splitting water back into hydrogen and oxygen. But of course you need to ADD energy to do so - the same energy
you would have got from burning hydrogen in the first place. But you could adapt wind or solar power to split water on a large scale.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 13th, 2009 at 10:41 AM |
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Yes, there are two ways to use Hydrogen.
1 - burn it in a slightly modified internal combustion engine.
2 - use it in a fuel cell which is basically letting chemical reactions create electricity.
I was talking about number 2 as it is where the future of hydrogen powered cars will be. Option 1 kinda misses the point and I don't think it will
take off.
As I said there are currently a lot of ways to make the hydrogen being investigated. I like the aluminium cluster one the most at the moment;
http://thefutureofthings.com/news/6541/hydrogen-produced-from-aluminum-and-water.html
There's still quite a few hurdles to overcome, but I think it is looking promising.
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Grey 57
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| posted on March 13th, 2009 at 04:43 PM |
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How big would the solar panels need to be to charge the battery pack up on the CCB Electric Beetle??? Charging over say a 8 hour period. The lenght
of an average work day for a car parked out in the open. Realise that there would be variables like weather etc. But assume 8 hours of sunshine.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 13th, 2009 at 05:18 PM |
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If my guess of 6kWh of battery power is right, then you probably would need close to a 1kW solar panel set-up. You'd be looking at about $10,000 of
panels for that I reckon.
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silver
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| posted on March 14th, 2009 at 02:12 PM |
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Hi good to see some good questions and answers .
I Just checked the specification on some solar panels
and discovered I could put 4 x 200 Kw solar panels on the roof of my splitty container van these thats 800w of solar for an constant charging
system
if say I converted the splitty to electric too , panels measurements are each 1300mm x 800mm
I know I couldn't drive 24 hours with it but I wonder how efficient would it be?
the total cost of electric conversion and panels would be about 20K
cost aside would it work
Keeping it real !
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silver
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| posted on March 14th, 2009 at 02:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by kombivw
Silver Been watching this thread and keeping quiet as not got any advice to provide anyway. But it has turned into a great thread with lots of great
points! You better go ahead with this and keep us all informed step by step. I may even do the same to my bug at the finish.
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go and check the working one at CBB in penrith
you are close so its easy
I would have already been there but its a special trip as I dont live close
How far are they away from penrith airport anyway
Keeping it real !
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 matberry
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| posted on March 14th, 2009 at 07:23 PM |
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I have lived on two solar powered boats that I had set up, the first was 600W and the second 800W. With the 800W system the best I ever saw was nearly
40A of charging current. To get this the panels need to be perpendicular to the sunlight and cool. Mounting and location is very important, for best
performance they require an air gap under for cooling and ANY shadow greatly decreases their output, to the extent of a shadow from an arial 6mm in
diameter on only one panel would reduce the output significantly. But park in full sun on say a cold windy summers day with an 800W system and you
would be very lucky to see about 200 a/hrs max.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on March 16th, 2009 at 06:53 AM |
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This report was on ABC TV's Stateline program on Friday night, with Quentin Dempster. It talks about the possibility of government subsidies for
rooftop solar panels to feed power back into the grid. They refer to an average 8 kW solar system to feed back 35 kW-hours per day. Cost = $95,000
before rebates.
http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/nsw/content/2006/s2516167.htm
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LOWBUG
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 06:45 PM |
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This has been interesting, to say the least, Like your work silver. You know I think that apart from the fun side of doing this, how much money are
you going to save from not pupmping gas at over a $1.00 per ltr, little service and repair cost. How much do spend on average each week for fuel. How
much would you spend on a new car and then pay it off over 5 years.
Then environment is one thing but if your going to save a $100.00 bucks a week on fuel, that awsome.
Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.
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XXX-1.8T
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 08:49 PM |
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out of curiosity how much does the CBB conversion cost?
Also any performance figures ie horepower?
0 - 100?
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bus914
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 09:06 PM |
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Electric Mini in Bathurst:
"Will spin the tires in 5th gear taking off. For footage go to ....."
http://www.evalbum.com/2407
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Baja Wes
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 10:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LOWBUG
Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.
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Your entitled to your own opinion. But from your post your not very open minded. I have merely presented the facts. I have told Silver to go for it. I
have also presented a fair comparison of petrol and electric.
It's going to take ages to pay off. If you are spending $100/week on fuel then an electric vehicle probably isn't going to have the range you
require.
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volumex
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 10:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LOWBUG
Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.
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That's a bit harsh. There are two sides to this story, and Wes is certainly entitled to his opinion, which he has supported with hard data. A
poorly executed electric conversion operating long term will more than likely result in higher overall carbon emissions than the new you-beaut diesel
Polo.
At this stage of the game there is no moral high ground, we are just going to have to wait until the facts determine who is right - and even then it
will probably be open to interpretation
In the meantime, I'll just keep my carbon footprint as light as I can without going overboard.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 10:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by XXX-1.8T
out of curiosity how much does the CBB conversion cost?
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Thats the question everyone wants to know, but is so large that it would weaken the cost to benefit argument on thier side so it is a secret
SSSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Calling someone a wanker is always a good strategy when the facts do not add up. 
Notice how people use the FUN tag when it is not logical to do something. "yeah we thought it would be FUN to to superglue his hand to his
forehead"
Good luck with the conversion. Fun Fun Fun
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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cb john
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| posted on March 17th, 2009 at 10:30 PM |
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Did any of you ever considered that all that carbon emition stories are full of bull ...?
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