| [ Total Views: 8176 | Total Replies: 96 | Thread Id: 79100 ] |
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 gerrelt
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 12:13 AM |
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| Quote: |
Is a Beetle still a 'real Beetle', when it is no longer driven by an air-cooled VW engine.
What do you think?
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Yes, it's still a beetle. The engine is just the technical component that turns the gearbox input shaft.
Replace that, it's still a beetle, only more powerfull with less maintenance.
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* With the amount of money some of us have poured into our old Volkswagen, perhaps we should have just bought an old 911 or WRX! 
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No, because that's definitely not a beetle! 
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itawolf
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 02:55 AM |
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if it looks like a beetle --then its a beetle ---be it old or new ----
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:00 AM |
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In some ways I find it hilarious that people get their knickers in a knot over people putting other boxers in the back of beetles. Afterall, boxers
have never been strictly the domain of VWs, nor have VWs exibited the pinnacle of boxer development. Subaru and porsche really have that in the bag in
the mass production sense. For that reason alone, a subaru in the back of a beetle as an upgrade is as many people have said, obvious and logical.
Heck, to give people a similar comparison, Harley Davidson went to a watercooled engine on the V-Rod for all the same reasons we are using subarus.
On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change. It took them twenty years or so as
a collective to start to accept the merits of mods on beetles. Not only that, but the man who oversaw production and upgrades, Heinz Nordorf was
famous for his small minded attitude to extensive improvements and motorsport. For thirty years he had a flat ban on factory motorsport at VW. The
only exceptions (eg. formula Vee and rallying) to that were by the hand of privateers outside the factory and relied on the sheer number of VW parts
available. Now for the statement that will get me kicked off.
Beetles in their natural state handle awfully.
So please don't compare them to 911s. Although as Clarkson and his ilk have said many times, 911s had a reputation for being dangerous too. No plain
engine swap is going to fix the beetle's natural strength but at the same time it's achile's heal. Rear engine. Good for traction and that's
pretty much it.
SO in answer to this qu, is a beetle still a beetle with a subaru in the back? Yes it is, and it's still just as potentially awful. Just potentially
awful in a faster and more reliable way. 
p.s. and I like beetles.
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:18 AM |
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When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.
Jak
PS my bug rules!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change.
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NO wonder so many Wars were started over religion.....
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 10:26 AM |
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Actually, my point was that VW allowed them to get the "change is bad" attitude well ingrained by changing very little about the beetle over the
course of 20 years. People are still fighting over whether a US67' is better than a 68' or a 58' is better than a 60' when in both cases they are
essentially the same car. The lack of change in the beetle through the 50s and 60s is only bettered by one company Fender Guitars. The strat they sell
now is really not much different to the one released at the end of the 50s. In fact, if many people had their way it would be the same. It's the same
attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3 are better
cars in so many ways.
So it's no wonder people seem to become physically ill/enraged at the thought of putting a modern engine in a beetle.
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STIDUB
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 10:28 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.
Jak
PS my bug rules!
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jak, i feel this is the PERFECT answer to this question
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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bajachris88
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 11:23 AM |
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Heres a question...
if you put a 911 engine into a beetle, is it still a beetle
I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u
don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar! 
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u
don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar!
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For once chris,
I think you are right...
But don't worry, I'm sure it won't happen again.
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 helbus
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:35 PM |
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Here are my angles on the discussion.
We have a modified and engineer approved Bay Bus with a Subaru EJ22. It was an 1800. It is great to have twice the power, a tenth of the maintenance,
no tuning required, spare parts available new anywhere, and same fuel economy. To build a 140hp aircooled 1800 would be pretty expensive.
However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available
economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1
engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.
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helbus
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 09:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
It's the same attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3
are better cars in so many ways.
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Like comparing Late Bay busses to lowlights.
If some people had their way, only Split and Oval Beetles and Split Busses would be in.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 10:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available
economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1
engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.
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Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?
I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)
btw, 100hp well used can be very quick. 
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helbus
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| posted on September 10th, 2010 at 11:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available
economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1
engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.
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Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?
I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)
btw, 100hp well used can be very quick.
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I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru,
and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.
Granted that a Beetle Subaru engine conversion would have a serious amount of power available, but in Victoria now under the VASS scheme using VSB14
would make it quite an engineering job. Look them up on Google search. Beetles would cost more than a Bus to engineer.
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Joel
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| posted on September 11th, 2010 at 09:42 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru,
and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.
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Wanna place a bet on that?
The amount of work involved beetle vs kombi conversion is on a par.
Both need a radiator install, same electrical work and same exhaust system etc.
I didnt have have to custom build an engine support like a kombi needs, just a Kafer bar which is something any bug with more than 100hp should have
anyway
Unless you fit an EJ25 all the SOHC engines fit the bug body with no mods, just notch the valance corners to get the engine in or i just unpicked
welds so it could be removed to get it in.
Stock gearbox suits the engine pefectly and stock brakes would also be fine, I already had 4 wheel discs anyway but Ian and Joshs WRX bugs were
engineered with stock bug brakes
We'll assume thats 100hp at the flywheel which like Craig said is shitloads in a bug and enough to keep most people happy
If you pick up the phone to old Stan (allow min 1hr) or any other reputable builder and ask them for a 100hp engine you'll be very lucky to get out
of it for under $7k
It'll make a for a nice drivable engine but i bet you'll be hard pressed to get better than 11-12L/100km in the city, and lifespan doesnt reflect
the price tag
The biggest problem with trying to build a performance vw engine that lasts these days is the quality or lack of in the aftermarket world if you
don't want to give up your first born
Especially when all the tight arses and new comers who don't know any different yet keep companys like Empi afloat
I'd rather push my bug everywhere than build an engine using inferior quality taiwanese parts which is one of the main reasons I gave up on
performance VW engines
My last 1776 motor I built for my bug cost me around $4.5k just for the parts and head work and that was over 4 years ago
It was never dynoed but would be around 80-90hp atfw, to get up over 100hp woulda been $5k+
My subi conversion if you take out the cost of the second engine i had to buy which is an exercise most people dont usually have to go through owes me
$3.5K all done and engineered
Nearly 1K of that was just the sump and ECU wiring both things I could have done myself but am really glad I didn't
You can't even buy one of those cruddy mexican crate motors for that now.
The engine stock was 100kw so add in a free flowing intake, hi-flow cat and exhaust and it's around the 150hp mark
If i really push it around town the worst I've got is 9.2L/100 but my average is 8.5-8.7 with mosty stop/start driving and 7.1L on the highway
not bad considering a stock EJ22 Liberty which is over 300kg heavier gets 10.3 city, 6.9 highway and 8.8 average
Dunno how vics engineer certs work but mine was $350 but it's all money for nothing
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pete wood
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| posted on September 11th, 2010 at 10:44 AM |
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Actually, you might have a point Joel. If I remember correctly, Damo's beetle with a 1776 puts out 100rwhp and it's chock a block full of every
exotic berg bit he could find. There is no way you could do those heads for under a couple of grand just in labor. Now I know there's a diff between
flywheel hp and rw hp but even still. Also, my understanding is that beetles only need beefier rear brakes and front discs for a conversion. For a
late car, they have half of that stock. I have type 3 drums and discs up front and the engineer was happy with that. Might be a little different with
an EJ20T, but with an Atmo motor you don't need anything beyond a single side plate box and a little mechanical sympathy. My cert for the whole buggy
was $600. Which is pretty good these days I think.
P.s. It just occurred to me today that the beetle pic at the top of AVD has porsche wheels on it. I find it ironic that certain things from other
manufacturers are accepted, even encouraged, but others are looked down on from a great height. Imagine if Subaru started loosing cash and VW bought
the company (happened with other car companies). What would the scene say about our conversions then? 
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helbus
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| posted on September 11th, 2010 at 01:32 PM |
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Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)
The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now
I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.
Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 11th, 2010 at 05:40 PM |
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When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past
& said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"
enough said really.
Jak
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mactaylor
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| posted on September 12th, 2010 at 06:52 AM |
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fully sik rizzo!!!!
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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pete wood
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| posted on September 12th, 2010 at 09:07 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past
& said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"
enough said really.
Jak
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that's awesome
see, kids know best.
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Hutcho
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| posted on September 13th, 2010 at 09:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past
& said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"
enough said really.
Jak
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Indeed, mate.
Subaru took a great idea with the boxer engine configuration........ and made it better.
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on September 13th, 2010 at 09:43 PM |
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Strangely enough, the most acceptance that my car ever had was with the Porsche club. I was very surprised that they were so positive about it.
Infact, I lost count of the number of Porsche drivers that told me that Porsche designed the engine for the WRX & that Volkswagen own the patent
for it & that it would seem a natural progression to put a wrx flat 4 in my beetle.
True? Don't know.
Jak
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 13th, 2010 at 09:48 PM |
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lucky i never have anything intelligent to say.......driving an aircooled 100hp beetle daily and racing a WRX notch whenever possible, i might have
actually contributed something....
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Tonz Magonz
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 12:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)
The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now
I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.
Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.
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I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the
conversion..
Regards Tony
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kombibob
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 03:22 PM |
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just have a go tony, heaps of info around now and its really not that hard
even if you get half way and pay someone to do the rest.
just do what i did and pester someone thats done it with heaps of questions
1961 swb buggy
1960 karmann ghia
1963 Single Cab: "El Concreto"
1963 bent 23 window " Frieda Samba "
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Get down low and go,go,go
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helbus
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| posted on September 15th, 2010 at 06:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Ratmuller
| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)
The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now
I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.
Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.
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I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the
conversion..
Regards Tony
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I could do it for you start to finish. That is who I recommend. PM me.
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Tonz Magonz
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| posted on September 19th, 2010 at 04:32 PM |
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Thanks for the encouragement Bob but still need to decide on which motor..?
I like the idea of the suby 3.3 flat six but not sure of the pros and cons yet..
More research required ..
PM Sent Helbus..
Thanks
Tony
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pete wood
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| posted on September 19th, 2010 at 08:51 PM |
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Ratmuller, I'd be looking for a later H6 if I were you. The EG(?)30 has the same or more power and is a much newer engine. In fact, if you hold off
for a little, I think you'll find a lot of them coming onto the market just like the EJ25 has recently.
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Tonz Magonz
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| posted on October 1st, 2010 at 09:53 AM |
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Thanks Pete,
Will take your advice on board and keep an eye out for what's out there.
I'll be selling a dc bay ute to finance this conversion so the available funds will partially determine which motor I go for..
Cheers Tony
Aka Tonz Magonz on Dsk and Melburgluft..
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pete wood
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| posted on October 1st, 2010 at 11:16 PM |
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Ah Tonz, you old devil.
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Tonz Magonz
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 12:19 PM |
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Pete,
would you be Andys brother...?
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