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 modnrod
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 04:12 PM |
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Hey Mat.
Your "W" key has fallen down.......
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Stanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 05:25 PM |
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I'm gonna be Switzerland here as i can see pro's and cons for both. Keep up the good work though humpty.
Matt use the v key twice....vv...until you can get a w key 
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humpty
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 05:41 PM |
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Open forums are good for this sort of debate.... I understood what you meant Mat.... Leaving the torsion in the stock location and adding another
would be madness, though I have seen it on off road cars.... But they were using both housings too.... Crazy stuff!!!
Hope to get to the fuel lines at some point.... Figuring on doing it before I do the cage, but making it easy to pull from the car should I need to at
anytime.... Planning on running the new fuel lines through the tunnel too... With easy access at either end and dash fittings too, but my concern is
with the soild lines in the tunnel.... Do you guys reckon a single P clip or something similar, would be sufficient to hold the lines in place?... I
plan to fit sections of rubber hose aling the pipe as well to keep the vibration to a minimum.
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essex
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 07:43 PM |
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Wouldnt you be better off running new fuel lines, forget inside the tunnel.
By the way Simon, I liked your response to Brad's comment earlier on.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 07:55 PM |
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fuel lines under the car and throttle and clutch cables out side of the tunnel toooo.
put a adjuster in clutch cable at front, so easier to adjust at track and no getting under hot engine.
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humpty
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 10:35 PM |
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The throttle and clutch (if I don't go hydraulic) cables will remain in the stock locations, but why put the fuel lines under the car?... Remembering
this car will be quite low.... My concerns are that my trailer is a full height deal with suspension and all.... Though I have some ideas on how to
make it a little lower.
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Dak-A-Tak
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 11:40 PM |
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Under View , I did my car this way becouse , mine is 4inch plus 1inch trans lift , way more then you can get by lifting only torsion tube ( 3inch on
front beam too ) . Mount plate (about 4 foot in welding ) has a huge hole from centre and fuel lines are pushloc laying in tunnel ( zip tied in ) but
bulk head fittings at each end ( blue fittings in pic)
What give lift plate strengh is rollcage tie ins , to stop forks pushing up . Torsion tube has roll cage tie ins at out edges to.
Just spend time on centre line and level all directions when rewelding up .
You will need bigger torsion bars ( 27 mm 28mm ?) Weight of car and engine power gaven this .
Have FUN !!
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whathaveidone
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 05:49 AM |
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"What give lift plate strengh is rollcage tie ins , to stop forks pushing up . Torsion tube has roll cage tie ins at out edges to"
Thats what I was thinking Pete. With it all tied in wouldnt it be just as,or stronger than original???
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 matberry
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:10 AM |
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Yes Pete, strength from the cage is added, I agree, doesn't alter the fact the connection is weaker and heavier than stock.
Not that it makes much difference, but the load on the forks is a downward force. The only upward force is applied from the wheelie bars and they
aren't strong so load is minimal when compared to a launch off the line. Any axle tramp or 'issue's' on the line and we're talking shock loading
and that is where fatigue will eventually highlight a weaker connection.
Sorry for the high-jack Humpty.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Dak-A-Tak
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 10:24 AM |
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Mat , Well I don't agree .Who cares if its a heavier becouse you save weight in other area's and car has way more engine power .Yes , force is down
but forks bend up . Good shocks are your best freind . Take off control and gear box saver .
Ben , way more then standard , we are talking about a drag car here .
Torsion tube half moon welded in , on top of forks will never be as strong . Unless you tie it all in .
My car is the exstream side of this type of mod , Humpty
Again have FUN !!
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humpty
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 02:38 PM |
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That is exactly what I plan to do.... The idea that fitting the torsion housing to the top of the frame horns, is not nearly as strong.... The extra
gusseting required to get the strength back will put heaps more weight into the car.... Then you have the issue of the frame horns now being too far
from the transaxle... Maybe not a huge issue with an IRS car, but with a Swinger its a major one... Taller trans mounts kinda defeats the purpose of
all this effort, and potentially adds even more potential failure points.... Hence the practice of moving the whole lot up as a unit..... I can see
where you coming from in regards to the loss of shear strength at the cut, but truthfully, the material there is very flimsy to begin with....
Furthermore, the additions that are needed to make this mod a success move the forces fore and aft of the cut, strengthen the original weak points and
direct the loads forward into the cage and chassis, and ultimately to the track, via tractive effort.
The extra stuff that Pete has done to his car, is pretty common practice in this day and age.... Doing this mod without adding the extra cage links is
a very bad idea.... The POS has finally made the step from street to race (much to the applause of Ben and Morgan no doubt), but that does not mean it
shouldn't look like a street car.... That is what I am trying to achieve here.... While I can appreciate the amazing cars that you all have built, I
don't like loud racer paint.... I like the subtle car... Stock trim and stock paint, but with balls out engineering and performance... And this is
what I want to build.
And don't worry about high jacking the thread Mat.... This is exactly why these forums exist.... To chat and critique the builds, feeding into the
ideas, and suporting the progress of others...
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whathaveidone
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 03:04 PM |
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Can i just add. if you take mogans brown bug for example. his standard forks are twisting with the extra hp. so the need to be braced. i dont see the
dofference in bracing the in the standard position or 100mm higher. If its welded properly and braced its all an advantage IMO
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 05:14 PM |
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If it were mine I would triangulate the forks with large gusset on the underside of the forks as well. Maybe overkill though?
One thing no one has commented on is how raising the torsion housing and therefore IC of the trailing arm (spring plate in this case) affects the
launch characteristics of the car. I've been doing a bit of reading on typical front engined setups but has anyone got their heads around VW's anti
squat characteristics etc? Maybe a topic for another thread
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whathaveidone
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 05:44 PM |
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Look at morgans. He has done just that.
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westi
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what the
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 06:43 PM |
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Can of worms . Love it.
The torsion housing is not strong enough on its own with out bracing.
So wether you leave it ,or move it ,it needs to be braced.
Frame horns in standard form in which they were pressed are stronger than one that have been cut off completely and re-welded.
This is for the same reason you are not allowed to cut and shut chassis.
Metal gets over heated . Welded incorrectly , blah , blah, blah.usually cracks next to the weld .
There are so many other cheap and strong ways off doing theses things. But if you don't know off them cool. Please don't preach that it is the best
way to suit your budget and that's why u did it.it was silly to think this way . As you said this is a forum .ask first then cut.my belief anyhow. I
love that people give things a red hot crack . But ask if you don't know.there is an awesome wealth off knowledge on this forum with guys that have
been around a very long time. Some off which were idols off mine when I was growing up and wishing to go race with.
So I reakon if your time isn't a factor as the labor wise, and you buy all the bits needed new , all can be purchased new from summit for around
$350-400 and metal cost 50-60 so if you have spent more than that . You are definatly doing it the wrong way. Engineering wise.
My 2 cents
down sharon.
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Stanley
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 07:47 PM |
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Have you got a pic you can post here brad so we can get a comparison?
Anything can be strenghtened by gussets and triangulation etc to restore strength to original or better but this normally comes with a weight
increase. Assuming also welding is of a good standard.
This is a good discussion.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:09 PM |
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Here's an idea.... Put the stock chassis in a big press and put a big bend in the centre of it like a banana. This would lower the car and increase
caster all in one hit with no welding. Great ideas like this are why I'm becoming an engineer 
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whathaveidone
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:13 PM |
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God help us!!!!
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Stanley
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
Here's an idea.... Put the stock chassis in a big press and put a big bend in the centre of it like a banana. This would lower the car and increase
caster all in one hit with no welding. Great ideas like this are why I'm becoming an engineer
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Then get the body to fit 
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:19 PM |
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What? You no like my idea?? Here's another one....Try using massively tall rear tyres so your car is always rolling downhill. Should be good for a
few tenths.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Stanley
| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
Here's an idea.... Put the stock chassis in a big press and put a big bend in the centre of it like a banana. This would lower the car and increase
caster all in one hit with no welding. Great ideas like this are why I'm becoming an engineer
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Then get the body to fit
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pie cut 
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westi
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what the
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:24 PM |
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I might have some, I'd have to go throught my old pics, I'll see what I can find
down sharon.
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humpty
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:39 PM |
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All mods will be gusseted.... You would be mad not to with this sort of upgrade, but it's a given really if you are planning to run a hipo car with
slicks and cage.
The OEM framehorns need a lot help to stay together even with a mild car.... I noted a lot of movement with my last street/track car.... That's one
of the reasons Kafer bars, and tramp bars exist in the performance world.... I seam welded the framehorns in my last street car, in an effort to
control the movement and seem separation the car was experiencing....
In the case of this car, the frame horns will have pipe sections included on the bottom edge (much like the BIGWIG car and Morgan has done) from the
primary plate to the near tip of the frame horns, the top of the primary plate will be gusseted going forward, the torsion will have at least two
takeoffs to the cage on either side, as will the upper frame horns along with the top most bellhousing mount.
As for asking for advise.... I have been asking about and researching this particular mod for the past two years.... Only commited to it when the 091
trans came up last October... Then I ask about specfics on numerous occasions, from numerous sources.... And not just here.... On UAC, STF and
theSamba too...
Those coilover shocks that Ben just bought are nearly 600 US each!!!!... And he still needs to source the springs.... My budget must be considered
Brad.... I just can't justify that sort of coin... Then I have the fabrication costs... In my case, a bit of gas and some wire for the MIG.... How
many hours of machining and tig would it take to build a set of links?.... In my case I have about $600 in my rear suspension (bars, retainers and
springplates) and another $90 in the torsion lift... The next major expense (some time in the future) I am looking at is some QA-1's, which are in
the region of $250US each from Summit... For me, this is big league stuff, so all other options are welcome and will be entertained.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:47 PM |
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Back to being sensible...what are the longterm goals with this car hp and ET wise? Sorry if it's in the last 30 pages somewhere.
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essex
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:50 PM |
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I'd be keen to see some pics,
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humpty
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 09:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
Back to being sensible...what are the longterm goals with this car hp and ET wise? Sorry if it's in the last 30 pages somewhere.
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A pretty mild tune for a stroker turbo car actually Owen.... Accourding to those that know more than I, my new engine should be good for an easy 300hp
and hopefully similar torque.... I have built the engine to be able to boost to 20 plus psi, but will try to keep a lid at around 15-18psi.... Depends
on the red mist factor there.... The trans and axles are good for 500hp according to Dave Folts.... I'm looking for a car that is capable of a 10
second quarter in a perfect world and with a driver capable of doing so... I doubt I will ever have that sort of skill.
As I have said before... This not a street car.... It will just look sorta like one.... I haven't seen too many Aussie cars of the style that truly
interests me.... Nick's Junka comes very close though.... I guess I kinda like cars in the vain of Larry Menniti's car or Doug Colley's.... Both
from from California.... Subtle, but tough.
Back to the project.... I got some more done today, but nothing interesting.... Just pulled the tubes from the tunnel I don't need, cut the jack
points, and the cast pan supports left over from cutting the torsion housing.... I also tacked the primary plate to the torsion housing.... Hopefully
finish weld that tomorrow, then its time to source a large pipe cutter and start on the beam narrowing.
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westi
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 09:53 PM |
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I hear what your saying humpty.
But all I am saying is there is a quicker and easier way to achieve the same result.
Doesn't have to be 4 link .
2 link is fine .
Without pics or drawing it is hard to explain. But there are so many better options , and before people chop it would be great for them to think out
side the square.
Monkey see monkey do Was around long before the Internet . That's why nothing on my car is the same as anyone else's . I wanted people to challenge
the way things are done. Get an idea and throw it out there.
When a chop is performed there are so many other things you will need to spend money on.
Like clutch . Accel cable . These now make your budget bigger than if you had left it so that must be part of the new budget . .
That's it for me until I can find you some pic's.
down sharon.
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humpty
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| posted on January 22nd, 2013 at 01:26 AM |
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That conversation we had back at Warwick helped me a lot, but after I did the numbers, and weighing in my skills and what is possible with my contacts
in this part of the world, I went the way I have done.... A tried and true method, with loads of positive results.... The way you have done it has
worked for you, and I have seen that others have done similar things... Who knows... I might even redo this thing, or build another one day, and your
ideas could well be tapped for that.... Total respect for what you have acheived Brad... There are so many ways to skin that cat.
And if you do manage to find some pics, I for one would love to see alternatives.
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westi
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| posted on January 22nd, 2013 at 12:44 PM |
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one option
down sharon.
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modnrod
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| posted on January 22nd, 2013 at 02:09 PM |
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Nice.
Simple, clean, easily adjustable traction bars.
For a real "cheap-as-chips" option, I've seen a few guys substitute McPherson struts from old Dattos for the Strange coil-overs.
A few of these guys over here are now running Supercharged Outlaws and Doorslammers..........
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