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 dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 21st, 2011 at 08:28 AM |
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German seals.
Wasserboxer on the big end and type 1 on the small end,
although the type 1 will stretch over the large end no probs.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 21st, 2011 at 08:30 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Stanley
Lookin' good Davo.....how long till it makes some noise?
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Still waiting for valves,
probably May before I get it done.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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20bkombi
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| posted on February 21st, 2011 at 08:12 PM |
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Wow Dave, those poshrod tube 'plates' look awesome man.
AARON'S SPEED SHIFT AUTOS
Specialising in Vw automatic transmissions, differentials and torque converters
Stock or modified to suit your application (street, drag, off road)
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 07:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VolksVair
Decided to grab some valve springs off the shelf this morning to compare vw to bigblock chev springs, then looked at your pic of your monster
springs & collet. then realised that I got excited at your pic that is magnified which made me originaly think that the valve springs you were
going to use were the biggest springs I had ever seen in any engine. hence my previous replys, It is a great close up pic . Just one question in
regards to the pushrods you are machining up, is there going to be enough room in the pushrod tubes for the oil to return back to the crankcase
quick enough cheers and hope you every success with this beast of a motor you are building, Frank| Quote: |
Hi Frank,
these springs are far from the largest you can get,
but are still over 1000lbs of pressure at full lift and probably 400 on the seat once they are installed.
The recommended installed heaight is 2.1",
but it looks like my installed height will be closer to 2.0"
My old springs where actually larger in diameter,(1.56" as opposed to these 1.50" ones)
but they only had 260 seat and 620 at full lift,(installed .030" from bind).
These new springs are 800lbs per inch spring rate.
I have enlarged the push rod tubes and I also restrict the flow through the pushrods.
I also I do not vent the rocker covers,
so once the covers are full, the oil can go nowhere else except back down the pushrod tube.
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 07:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
I would've thought being stiffer would give more lift (due to less bend), and sort of "sharpen" the shape of the cam at full lift over a pushrod
that bends under pressure... which is almost the opposite of what their graph thing shows....
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I cant comment on their graph, but there may be something suspect going on there!
The way I see it though,
is stiffer components will allow the lifter to follow its intended path,(track the lobe)
so that the "top of the graph" can be working as designed.
The other part about those types of graphs
is that if weird stuff is going on with valve train stability,
then the valve or lifter can "toss" at full lift and add more lift, or a spike in the graph.
Some classes of racing that have limits in lift or parts,(like Nascar and F-Vee)
can use this to advantage,
but more often than not it requires much maintenence and more often than not,
a DNF.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 08:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Will have to devise a new method to fit and test the springs.
These things use as much tension just to get the collets in,
than what I had before at full lift!
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This Arbor press should do the job:
Made up this angle plate:
Funny that it is rated at 3 ton, (6600lbs),
yet my right arm struggles to get to coil bind,(prob 1200?).
It will do the intended task no worries though,
without wearing out my milling machine quill.
(which is what I used previously).
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 08:42 AM |
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Awesome stuff DB, and thanks for answerin my dodo questions !!!
I think I understand now... I'd been thinking more about the springs and how they effect flex in the pushrods, and not really considered the momentum
of them and the rockers moving. When you do consider that then yeah - becomes sort of obvious that heavier pushrods requires heavier springs,
requiring heavier pushrods again due to more flex, requires heavier springs to overcome the extra momentum, and so-on and so-on.
Cool solution too with the press, and the "made up this" understatement...
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mactaylor
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 04:57 PM |
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F$%k dave that is gunna be some massive pounds on the "nose". is it a roller cam?
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 05:24 PM |
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Hi Mac,
yes it is a roller camshaft.
Even a steel,(instead of cast iron) flat tappet,(like i used when it was supercharged) wears out lifters above 500lbs.
I dont know about these springs,
but my old ones, with roller lifters turns over easer than the flat tappet combo with 2/3 the tension.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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VolksVair
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| posted on February 25th, 2011 at 05:33 PM |
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Thanks for the informative reply Dave, I enjoy the machine work you get up to & the trouble you go to with your postings on here, my comment
about oil return to the crankcase stems from an incident years back where I put together a pretty sick 455 Oldsmobile bigblock and fitted a high
volume oil pump, did a lot of machine work to those heads but never gave the oil return a second thought, end result, during some sustained high
rpm, 6 ltrs of engine oil in the rocker covers and nothing in the sump, BANG!! My son & I were at the SummerNats a wee bit back and whilst
in the dyno cell, there was a street car that was pushing 700hp & climbing, when the oil buildup in one of the rocker covers actually
hydraulicked stretching the rocker cover studs and spewing oil over the headers, I had never seen that before, my son actually filmed it. just
be carefull of the back presure that can be created in unvented rocker covers. cheers Frank
Adventure Before Dimentia
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 12:49 PM |
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Flow Testing.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 07:39 PM |
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Flows 322cfm at .850".
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 07:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Flows 322cfm at .850".
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is that good???
do you think the valve tops will be mushroomd over time.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 08:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Flows 322cfm at .850".
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is that good???
do you think the valve tops will be mushroomd over time.
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It will do.
It is about 20cfm better than my current heads.
Hopefully that means an extra 20hp.
Tips are hardened so will be fine.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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 matberry
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 09:37 PM |
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Awesome work Dave. Gotta be happy with that.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 07:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
do you think the valve tops will be mushroomd over time.
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If you mean the head of the valve,
no.
They seem to handle the seat pressure no problems.
In fact the only time you get ANY mushrooming
is when the valve is not controlled well enough buy the spring.
...like when rose goes through the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 09:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
do you think the valve tops will be mushroomd over time.
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If you mean the head of the valve,
no.
They seem to handle the seat pressure no problems.
In fact the only time you get ANY mushrooming
is when the valve is not controlled well enough buy the spring.
...like when rose goes through the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear!
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 09:29 AM |
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your flow bench D.B?
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 10:16 AM |
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I have owned a share in it with crankshaft engineering for 15 years.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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hellbugged
A.k.a.: Daimo Pell
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 10:19 AM |
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 sweet stuff
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STIDUB
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 04:12 PM |
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ahem, when did the closing in with walls/doors happen? - i was confused where you were for a moment there
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STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
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Sides
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 06:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by STIDUB
ahem, when did the closing in with walls/doors happen? - i was confused where you were for a moment there
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Geez STIDUB... you are a bit behind on things !!!
20 hp more hey DB... can't wait to see and hear what THAT's like on song...
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matberry
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 07:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
I have owned a share in it with crankshaft engineering for 15 years.
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Ha ha ha Craig half offered to me for sale a few months ago....I reminded him to call you Dave... I new you would be needing it soon 
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 25th, 2011 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
For these:
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One down, 7 to go...
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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hellbugged
A.k.a.: Daimo Pell
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| posted on April 25th, 2011 at 08:46 PM |
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yeah those doors threw me off too 
....those push rods are absolute NUTS ya crazy kid!
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nbturbo
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| posted on April 25th, 2011 at 09:57 PM |
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For a second there I thought you were holding an IRS drive shaft you was about to respline.Awesome work again.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 26th, 2011 at 07:21 AM |
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These are 19mm in the middle and taper down to 12.7 at each end
before a 10 degree chamfer down to the tip.
Once the others are done they will be sent down to Rene' at Adelaide heat treatment for hardening.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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modnrod
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| posted on April 29th, 2011 at 12:47 AM |
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I'm a definite fan, and really appreciate the photo log of your work.
Are you aware of the SB2.2 Cup builders and their methods of controlling valve float at high (over 9G) RPM? They've been using CF and ally (dunno
what sort) "sandwich construction" pushrods to reduce flex, but more importantly have also used "lifter springs" in conjunction with extreme
lightweight valvetrain parts to reduce valvespring weight and rates and lowering the required tension on the collets/retainers. They're able to
manage float at up to 10G (for longer than the 6secs needed by your average SB altered)
Thanks for your updates Dave.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 29th, 2011 at 05:26 AM |
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I was not aware that carbon fibre was used as a composite with aluminium,
unless you mean the 3M pushrod mentiond on the last page.
Yes, the spring on the lifter is called a "rev kit".
I have never seen it used on a flat tappet, are the SB2.2 flat tappet classes like Nascar?
The smaller diameter of the rev kit spring can induce its own harmonics earlier into the RPM range,
but these days the simulation programs and spintron testing can select a spring perfect for the job.
We have tried a rev kit in the past, but the spring interfered with the pushrods, due to the VW's angle, and a stronger head made it obselete.
We eventually got it to work well, using an offset isky roller lifter, but then went to the pauter head that could hold the decent springs.
This may be again in my future though, and the reason for making my pushrod plates from 7075 material.
These new heads have rockers that straighten up the pushrod agle, so it will fit much better!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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modnrod
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| posted on April 29th, 2011 at 10:03 PM |
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Can't find the 3M pushrods, but they machine the centre out of solid CF rods, then interference fit high grade alloy tubes inside the length.
The SB2.2 is Nascar stuff, yep, the DRCE stuff uses the "spring kit" too, but you already have too, so I'm a few years too late!
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