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 Jeza
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 07:08 PM |
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Nice work Ratty.
Well done to you and your brother. Thanks for the pics and the speal.
What size tubing are you using for the runners?
Let us know how you guys get on.
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 08:03 PM |
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Hi Ross
Dave was taliking about you two doing this at our weekend at Levuka.
Looks great.
Marc
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 30th, 2007 at 11:39 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jeza
Nice work Ratty.
Well done to you and your brother. Thanks for the pics and the speal.
What size tubing are you using for the runners?
Let us know how you guys get on.
Cheers
Jeremy
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Hi Jeremy,
Thanks for your praise! :blush
The runners are made from 50mm tube and the plenum is 100mm tube.
We took the Baja for a test run on Friday (Aust Day) to try to smooth out a couple of minor issues that have appeared since fitting the new manifold -
keep in mind that we simply just swapped manifolds without changing anything to do with the tuning, so we expected a few minor problems...
There are three main problems that we wanted to deal with:
1. A slight hesitation (like a cough) when the throttle is opened from the closed position - almost like a faulty accelerator pump on a carbie.
2. The engine will vary in speed between 1500 and 2500 RPM even if the accelerator is kept still.
3. Reducing power, the higher the revs, the less power the engine appeared to have - This was similar to the problem that we were having before the
manifold changeover.
Problem number one was reasonably easy to fix: When the old manifold was fitted, the fluctuations in manifold vacuum would cause the acceleration
enrichment to activate most of the time, so I made the trigger vac change greater (so that the vac would have to vary more to trigger the enrichment).
Now the new manifold is fitted the vac change is less so I had to 're-sensitise' the trigger by reducing the amount of vac change required to
trigger the enrichment. This appeared to fix the problem 99% of the time - but when we set this up I fiddled with almost every variable that related
to acceleration enrichment and I feel (and the reading from the O2 sensor backs this up) that it could use more fuel for enrichment - this is
something that I will improve next time I 'plug in' to the ECU.
The second problem was simply caused by the steps in the (auto tuned) VE map being too big from one point in the map to the next - this is common with
auto tuned VE maps that are not tuned in some sort of systematic way (as this Kalmaker instructions explain). It's an easy fix though, I just
adjusted the VE map to make the graph rise smoothly from 0 throttle to WOT and also from closed throttle vacuum to WOT vacuum (it's a 3D map) and the
problem disappeared except at very low throttle settings. The ignition advance is set up quite aggressively on this engine and I feel that if we were
to 'flatten' the curve out a little that this would help eliminate this surging, but Dave doesn't want to loose his low down torque (It is a Baja
after all  ), so we have left it alone for now.
Then we tackled problem 3 - so far we did all the changes whilst sitting on my front lawn, but for this one we headed out onto the M1 so that we could
pull full throttle at high speeds for a while.
The engine pulls really well to around 3200RPM, then the power begins to taper off - don't get this wrong, it's far better than it was with the old
manifold as it will easily rev to over 5000 RPM without any problem, but it appears to be badly effected by load (ie: up hills, towing a trailer, a
car full of fatsos, etc). This was quite noticeable when we approached a slight rise on the M1 - the car, whilst at WOT, would only accelerate slowly
from 90km/h to 110km/h, but once over the hill (with the foot still buried), it just took off.
At first I increased the fuel supplied at WOT at around the 2800 - 3500 RPM ranges by reducing the the AFR map, but it didn't seem to have any
effect... so out of curiosity I increased the AFR at these points, and the engine felt slightly better... strange! I also increased and decreased the
ignition advance at these same points to see what would happen - interestingly, the engine did feel slightly better with the ignition reduced from 34
deg to 32 deg at WOT - but it was hardly noticeable.
So - it would appear that the engine will give more power at WOT with less fuel and less spark advance.... does this seem strange to anyone else?
We stopped and had lunch at about this point, and we discussed what we had discovered. I considered doing a couple of other adjustments to the
settings, but Dave was not keen to change it too much as he is heading to Frazer Island later this week and was reasonably happy with the way that the
engine performed - we will look at those changes once he comes back.
Dave also mentioned that the cam that he used in this engine was set-up retarded as he had told the cam grinder that it was going to be used in an
engine that required heaps of grunt at low revs - we are beginning to wonder if, perhaps, this cam is so retarded that the engine has simply 'run
out' of torque by the time it gets to 3500RPM. Has anyone had any experience with something like this? I would be interested to hear your thoughts
as it's not out of the question that Dave might consider re-building this engine again in the near future in order to change the cam....
OK, thats all for now - I'll let you know how his trip to Frazer Island goes.
R
[ Edited on 30-1-2007 by ratty 63 ]
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56astro
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| posted on February 16th, 2007 at 06:35 AM |
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Hi Rosco,
Do you have any details on the Camira TB in the workshop manual you copied?
I have to find out what the hose connections are for. The switch side of things is sorted.
Cheers
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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ratty 63
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 09:38 AM |
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56Astro, the Engine management section of the Gregory's manual doesn't cover the vacuum hose locations (perhaps its covered somewhere else in the
manual?), however the ports for the hose fittings are labeled on my TB .... this is what I have figured out so far:
- Starting with the big one (labeled ENG) - crankcase vent;
- the two, just above the throttle flap are PCV and VAC - PCV goes to a PCV valve (which we don't have), and I suspect that the VAC port is supposed
to connect to the charcoal cannister;
- the ports around the base of the TB are labeled AC, ENG and MAP - I can't find anything in the manual to 100% confirm this, but I believe that the
AC port connects to a Vacuum tank that supplies vacuum to the heater/AC/fresh/recirculate/etc mech behind the dash. The ENG port probably has
something to do with the charcoal cannister and the port marked MAP is connected to the MAP sensor.
The only two that I have connected are the MAP port (going to the MAP sensor) and the crankcase vent, all the others are blocked off as I don't have
any of the other stuff fitted to my car.
I have just had a quick look through a Gregory's manual for a VN/VP Commodore (as they use a very similar TB to the Camira) and I can't locate a
'hose map' in this manual either - they seem to cover the vacuum hoses in the sections of the manuals that relate to where the hose is connected and
have descriptions similar to "vac hose to engine" - not really a lot of help!
I hope that this info is helpful....
R
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56astro
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 09:49 AM |
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Sweet
Thanks
The TB is with the engine at the fabricators so I can look at the labels.
Thanks again.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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ratty 63
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 posted on February 20th, 2007 at 10:03 AM |
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Update time!
Hi all,
Just a quick update (as quick as my updates can be anyway!)
Dave spent a week on Frazer Island, giving the engine, with it's new manifold, a good flogging. Whilst he was doing this the ECU was self tuning
(against my recommendation - if something were to go wrong with the fuel map whilst it is set to self tune, the only way to fix it is to plug in my
laptop, which was at home with me).
However, apart from a crack in the exhaust, which Dave fixed ASAP it all went well. The extra load that driving in sand put on the engine enabled the
ECU to reset the fuel map at a number of points that it had not previously had an opportunity to do. Also, the higher revs for longer periods of time
enabled it to sort our the fuel requirements at the top of the fuel map - as a consequence, the engine will now easily spin out to the rev limit of
5500RPM in the lower gears, however it still feels like it is struggling (although not as much as it was before the trip) at highway speed - something
that Dave still believes is being caused by his cam set-up.
Dave tells me that the rev limit (which is referred to as a soft-limit) ...er... isn't so soft. When he triggered it for the first time (whilst
doing a burn-out in first gear ) he thought he had thrown a rod
through the side of the case - I suspect that the 'violence' in the soft limit could be reduced if I make the gap between the cut-out and
cut-back-in RPM smaller (at the moment it is about 500RPM). On the positive side though, Dave tells me that the rev-limit is so violent that you kind
of make a point of not hitting it ... is this such a bad thing? I might have a play with this in the future.....
So, unless the engine begins to find more grunt at highway speeds, it looks like another engine re-build is on the cards, with the intention of
changing the cam to something that is a little less advanced... which will, of course, mean that the fuel map will have to be re-set again to suit
.... this seams to be never ending! ... Oh well, it's all good practice!
R
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56astro
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 10:51 AM |
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Is the rev limiter fuel or spark?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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ratty 63
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 09:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Is the rev limiter fuel or spark?
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My brain is a bit fuzzy today, so I had to charge up the laptop battery and check....
...it's fuel, and whilst the cut-out (high) revs setting is 5500RPM, the cut-back-in (low) setting is 5400RPM, not 5000RPM like I thought... perhaps
it needs a bigger gap between the high and low settings to make it less violent.... hmmmmmm  
R
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56astro
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 07:37 AM |
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Can it be changed so that it takes away advance rather than fuel?
If I remember correctly, the WBX that my parents owned had a rev limiter that shut down the injectors as well. When the rev limiter was hit, it
started to "chug" but it wasn't violent like you describe.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 11:10 PM |
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It is more normal to cut spark - I believe. The potential problem of cutting fuel is that if you are right on the rev limit for sustained periods you
may get partial fuelling and go lean at WOT Ideally cutting both is better. Many rev limiters on early EFI cars were part of the rotor button. At
least when you cut spark the engine will never run lean.
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
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ratty 63
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 10:33 PM |
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Hmmm, yes, I agree - however, I suppose that as long as you have the cut-out (high) RPM and cut-back-in (low) RPM values far enough apart the scenario
that you describe shouldn't happen - of course, if the rev-limit is as violent as my brother describes then you probably wouldn't sit on the limit
for too long
Astro, the Delco ECU will only cut fuel for the rev limit - I figure that they used this exact ECU in dozens of different production models (and
therefore hundreds of thousands of vehicles) without any apparent problem so it should be OK for our humble VW's.....
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 1st, 2007 at 09:27 AM |
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Complete and instant OE style fuel cut doesn't result in a 'lean' condition so there's no real worries there. But spark cut can lead to exhaust
damage - the fuel explodes
Pay your debts, CxxT
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ratty 63
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 posted on March 16th, 2007 at 10:12 AM |
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Update time!
Hi all,
Well, since the new manifold was fitted things have been going great - the engine appears to be far more willing to rev out to the rev limit and the
fuel consumption is improving over time - the only real issue that has bugged us has been a slight hesitation just as you open the throttle (from
idle).
We noticed that this hesitation was becoming more and more noticeable as time went on - I had already checked that the fuel and spark settings were
the same in the idle and low rev (800RPM and below) ranges to ensure that the hesitation was not being caused by a big change in fuel or spark when
you switch maps, but they were identical.... Then we noticed that the hesitation was beginning to appear when you open the throttle at any revs... it
was slowly getting worse 
We had also made a change to the throttle stop setting (on the TB) as we had noticed that the IAC was showing too few steps (between 0 and 5 - it
should be showing around 10 - 12) - remember that we have to do this because we are not using a VSS. I thought that this was odd as this adjustment
hadn't moved since the last time we set it up, but I can only believe what I read on the laptop screen.... Since we made this adjustment the car had
begun to stall when allowed to decelerate quickly and the flame thrower in the exhaust was back again when over-running at high revs - this indicated
to me that the adjustment we had made was way too much.... but the IAC steps on the laptop screen were correct.... hmmmm :o
After much discussion, we decided that the IAC must be sticking, so we decided to swap the entire TB for another one that we had sitting on the shelf
so see if this fixed the issue - but as Dave was unplugging the vac hoses and wiring from the TB on the car he noticed that the vac hose running from
the TB to the MAP sensor had collapsed (sucked flat) - figuring that this would have to be the cause of the problems that we were experiencing, Dave
removed the offending plastic hose, and replaced it with a piece of fuel hose.
Bingo, problem solved - the hesitation has gone and the stalling and backfiring is also gone.
So the lesson we have learnt today is: don't use cheap plastic hose as vacuum hose in an engine bay!
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 16th, 2007 at 10:16 AM |
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lol... had the same kind of problem with a Holden V8 I converted - rats had eaten the MAP sensor vacuum line!
VSS is very useful - critical - for the Delcos, escpecially with auto trans. Can you fit one easily? It might make a lot of differecne - as I found
out
Pay your debts, CxxT
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ratty 63
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 02:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
VSS is very useful - critical - for the Delcos, escpecially with auto trans. Can you fit one easily? It might make a lot of differecne - as I found
out
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I could imagine that it would have a big effect on an auto car - much bigger than a manual. I know that we have had to put our thinking caps on to
get around a couple of issues caused by the lack of VSS in Daves car - so far we have managed to achieve a fairly smooth running engine without it -
but there are a few other features that I would like to set-up that require a VSS so it will probably be the next big update....
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 05:06 PM |
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Highly recommended - enables lean cruise, better idle anticipation and quality, quicker ST andf LT fuel trim learns (I believe) etc etc etc etc!
Pay your debts, CxxT
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 22nd, 2007 at 01:14 PM |
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Hi all,
Not really an update this time - as nothing much has changed.
Dave has flattly refused to allow me to take the ECU out of "Auto VE update" mode (auto tune) for reasons that I can't understand - all up now it
has been auto-tuning for almost 18 months which is a ridiculously long period of time (it is supposed to be used for a couple of days/weeks until the
VE maps are sorted then switched over to "auto correct" mode).
The main differences between "auto tune" and "auto correct" is that "auto tune" effects the VE maps directly and is quite quick to make changes,
and unless you have your laptop with you, the changes made by the "auto tune" function cannot be easily changed back.
The "auto correct" mode creates a correction table that is then applied to the VE maps - the changes to the correction table are made over a long
period of time (the correction table is supposed to allow for changes in engine condition over the life of the car) - the correction table can also be
erased by removing the power from the ECU, so should the "auto correct" function make a meal of the correction table (not that it is likely too),
then simply removing the fuse (or the battery) will set everything back to zero again.
Obviously, I am keen to switch over to "auto correct" so that if/when something does go wrong with the tuning process, Dave can fix it himself on
the side of the road (or track as the case often is!). I have been waiting for a phone call from Dave when he is on one of his trips (like the one to
Frazer Island that is featured in the latest VWMA) telling me that he damaged the exhaust and that this has upset the tuning and now the car isn't
driveable... or something similar - which almost happened on his Frazer trip....
It would now appear that another engine rebuild is on the cards as Dave feels that the cam fitted to this engine is incorrectly timed and causing the
engine to run out of puff at about 4500 RPM... but there are a number of other projects that have to be finished first....
R
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nbturbo
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| posted on May 22nd, 2007 at 08:42 PM |
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I am getting close to cranking up my Delco inspired injection and have not even considered a VSS-in fact I have just finished taping up the modified
Camira loom and would hate to have to open it up to run some more wires.
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nbturbo
I am getting close to cranking up my Delco inspired injection and have not even considered a VSS-in fact I have just finished taping up the modified
Camira loom and would hate to have to open it up to run some more wires.
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The VSS is not strictly required, but as previously mentioned, it does allow you to take full advantage of the Delco ECU. Just see how you go - we
have had Dave's Baja on the road for almost 18 months now, and having no VSS has caused a couple of minor problems, but nothing we couldn't get
around (once we understood what it was doing!).
Let me know if you have issues with your system and I will try to help out.
R
PS: got any pics of your system - I would be interested to see what you have done so far....
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nbturbo
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| posted on May 24th, 2007 at 09:06 PM |
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Yes,did some research today and don't need the VSS.Bloke setting up my computer can rig one up for me if needed-was thinking of fitting a cruise
control to it.Just tidying up the loom at the computer end-pulling out all the surplus wires in the multi connector ECU plugs and I can then fit the
loom to the car.I am using a TPS that came with the Throttle Bodies and it will be OK with the Delco.Using a Camira ignition module and have mounted
it as close to the Dizzy as possible to keep the wires short.Mounted the fuel pump on the RH frame horn next to the transmission and the MPS
underneath as well,just below the starter.Mounted the temp sender in the blanking plate over the original Type4 fuel pump mount.Mounting the ECU under
the passenger side back seat as well as 3 relays to run everything.Will drill a 2inch hole in the floorpan and use the original Camira rubber
grommet.Loom is just long enough to reach.Should be ready to fire it up this weekend.
[ Edited on 24-5-2007 by nbturbo ]
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nbturbo
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| posted on May 24th, 2007 at 09:08 PM |
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Fuel pressure reg is from a Toyota and the dizzy is from a 244 Volvo-machined down to fit the VW motor.Bringing the fuel from the pump into the engine
bay on the drivers side and out of the reg. on the passenger side-I have drilled the fuel rails in the centres and run a connecting line between them
across the back and low on the motor-almost out of sight.I ran a 10mm supply and 8mm return line in the tunnel when I was modifying the pan for the
auto trans.
[ Edited on 24-5-2007 by nbturbo ]
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nbturbo
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| posted on May 25th, 2007 at 02:30 PM |
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Wiring loom is all done now so will fit it and the ECU and wire up the relays tonight.A pic of the air temp sensor I fitted to one T/Body.
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ratty 63
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| posted on June 3rd, 2007 at 10:48 PM |
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A thing of beauty!
Keep us up to date with this project - I can't wait to see it all together!
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on June 4th, 2007 at 06:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nbturbo
Yes,did some research today and don't need the VSS.
[ Edited on 24-5-2007 by nbturbo ]
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*sigh* Been there, done that... Lost of 'experts' only have experience with aftermarket ECUs that don't depend on the VSS in the same way the Delco
does. Save yourself heaps of hassle with significant idle and driveability issues: Fit the VSS
[ Edited on 3-6-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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nbturbo
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| posted on July 26th, 2007 at 01:06 PM |
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Ratty-got it running OK but having problem with real low vacuum signal at idle for the MAP to work properly-making it idle too rich.Because of the
large T/Bodies/short manifolds and mild cam,can only get about 5in/Hg at idle and it's pulsing really bad.Have ordered some small one way valves and
made a small collector to try and boost the vacuum.Have actually connected no 1 and 4 cylinders only together,and pinching the hoses to restrict the
size, can get about 10in/hg at idle but still pulsing too much for the MAP.Other than the idle problem,I can't believe how the thing goes and the
throttle response.Just love the way it fires up as soon as I push the start button without having to piss around pumping the throttle and feathering
it to keep it idling like I had to with the Webers.If it works will make something a little neater.Will let you know how I get on with the idle
issue.
[ Edited on 26-7-2007 by nbturbo ]
[ Edited on 26-7-2007 by nbturbo ]
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on July 27th, 2007 at 10:17 AM |
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Thats great to hear!
Interesting that you have a low vac signal at idle ... I will be interested to see how you get on in regards to this problem as I am looking at
helping a friend do (another) EFI conversion on a Type IV, and we were discussing the idea of running with twin TB's.
Are you using the Kalmaker Street Pro 3 software or are you having someone else tune it using the workshop software?
Isn't that instant start fantastic - regardless of engine or air temp, it just starts - no messing about.
It's even nicer to know that once you have it set up you won't have to re-tune anything for a very long time...
Great stuff!
R
[ Edited on 27-7-2007 by ratty 63 ]
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nbturbo
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| posted on July 27th, 2007 at 09:40 PM |
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I'm starting to regret not persevering with a single centre throttle body.I'm not using Kalmaker(YET).The bloke doing this for me is using something
he has built himself,and has done heaps of cars,but always with a normal intake system.He want's to be able to beat this one,as it will allow him to
get into some hotter set ups.He has just Delco'd a V12 Jag motor thats gone into a Holden 1 tonner ute.At the moment he has put a variable resistor
into the MAP circuit,so I can fine tune it at idle to stop fouling the plugs while I try to play with the idle vacuum.
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Blue76Bay
Learner Dubber
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| posted on September 10th, 2007 at 03:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
It would now appear that another engine rebuild is on the cards as Dave feels that the cam fitted to this engine is incorrectly timed and causing the
engine to run out of puff at about 4500 RPM... but there are a number of other projects that have to be finished first....
R
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Found this thread that talks about timing and a Type IV motor running above 4500rpm. I thought you maybe interested.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=76389&highlight=ignition+timing |
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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 posted on October 12th, 2007 at 12:31 AM |
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Grrrr!
Sometime it can be hard to get people out of their old habits.
My Brother made a few changes to the manifold on his Baja a couple of weeks ago - nothing serious, but it was enough to change the vacuum at idle -
which in turn caused the engine to hunt slightly (when at idle). Instead of coming to me as asking me to sort it out (by resetting the fuel map in
the idle range), he adjusted the throttle stop on the TB (like he used to do when the engine was fitted with a carby and was idling too low). This is
something that every manual I have every seen (that covers the Delco EFI system) says you should not do - and I have explained this to Dave in the
past.
Although it appeared to fix the problem at the time, the next day the hunting at idle was back ... and it was worse than before.
Several adjustments of the throttle stop later (making the situation worse every time) and I get the phone call that I should have received at the
very beginning.
When I downloaded the contents of the ECU onto my laptop I noticed that the Autotune feature (which is still switched on) had created a slightly
'sawtoothed' pattern throughout the VE (fuel) map - so I decide to spend some time smoothing out the map. Once this was done, and with time rapidly
running out (I had to go to work) I uploaded the new 'smooth' map back to the ECU... or so I thought.
The following day Dave rang me again to tell me that the engine was still hunting - exactly like it was before I had adjusted it - confused, I cranked
over my (T)rusty laptop and had a close look at the map that I thought I had uploaded - it looked OK to me....
Dave brings the car back to me a couple of days later and I, once again download the contents of the ECU to the laptop and compared it with the
download from last time (before 'smoothing') - it was identical :duh
I gather what I did was, rather than uploading the 'smooth' map from the laptop to the ECU, I downloaded the contents of the ECU to the laptop
again by accident  Oh well, no one is perfect
Whilst I was connected to the ECU this time I carefully, and quietly (without telling Dave), switched the Autotune feature off and the Auto Correct
feature on (as it would be when installed in a 'factory' vehicle) - this means that the ECU will no longer change the VE (fuel) map, instead it will
create a separate map with any changes it deems necessary, which are then applied to the VE map each time the fuel calculation takes place. The
biggest advantage to this is that the separate (auto correct) map is volatile, so should something stuff up in the future (air leak, faulty injector,
faulty sensor, etc) and cause the fuel calculations to be way off, it can all be reset to the 'smooth' map by removing power from the ECU for about
30 seconds.
So for most of us this would be the end of this topic - job done. Of course, this isn't the case as Dave is getting closer to doing a rebuild on
this engine, with plans for a completely different cam, changes to the heads, and possibly even a little forced induction (although that last one is
more of a 'wouldn't it be cool if we....'), so no doubt, this won't be my last post in this subject!
So, how is everyone else going with their EFI systems?
R
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