| [ Total Views: 4510 | Total Replies: 189 | Thread Id: 71616 ] |
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 newoldmanx
A.k.a.: Billy
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| posted on September 30th, 2008 at 04:14 PM |
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thanks and well answered
we have had 80+ppl here at home for the last 3 nights praying, singing, eating, and drinking kava as we had "our lady of the rosary" gathering.
My wife is a christian, and i do not use the term lightly she is a person whom has an incredible commitment to her faith not just a church goer
(sadly a contradiction to 99% of "christians" i have met personally) and yes the singing really is something to experience
its just a car for f*%k sake
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Mick058
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| posted on September 30th, 2008 at 04:45 PM |
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Good to hear your wife has a commitment to Christ.
i really do look forward to the Fijian experience.
At the end of the day you can only learn so much when it comes to Christianity (though there is lots to learn!) - it comes to a point of faith, you
rather believe it or not - BUT, if it is true and God really did love us so much, that he gave his son Jesus to die for us, so that our sin was taken
care of - wouldn't it be worth following him?
I hope your wife continues to nag you in a loving way 
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newoldmanx
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| posted on September 30th, 2008 at 06:48 PM |
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personally my "sin" is taken care of through me forgiving myself and allowing myself to be right here right now detaching myself from the "form"
and accepting my love for myself and my life the reason i cannot accept a higher power atm is when i was born no-one told me i needed food i got
hungry no-one told me i needed warmth i got cold etc others later on told me i needed "god" if god told me i needed food and warmth etc i just cant
understand why he would'nt tell me i needed him where are his priorities
the standard answers i get from priests, ministers, clergy and believers etc is "god works in mysterious ways" "we cannot expect to understand gods
will" i ask them to pray for god to give me an answer i will understand and accept to no avail 
its just a car for f*%k sake
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Mick058
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 08:07 AM |
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Fair enough, though if God put it in our minds at birth that we needed to follow him, our lives may be more robotic then actually 'real'.
You sound like a guy who is curious enough, but miraculous conversions aren't really the norm - i came to know and accept through reading and
learning.
You should get yourself a book called 'Evidence that demands a Verdict'. It seems you know your history etc from your previous posts. This is a good
book and may give you some more understanding. Its by a guy called 'Josh Mcdowell'
Books are good in helping us to understand. As i've said previously, this is the main way GOd has chosen to reveal himself to us - through written
word (most importantly the bible) and through verbal words (through people spreading the gospel, missionaries, pastors, priest - lay people etc.)
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Wild1
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 12:57 PM |
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This is a book which I think better helps understand - Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSk_ZeAH_I
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pete wood
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 04:10 PM |
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mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?
and charity is like a sexual lust?
right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? 
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 05:22 PM |
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The cuckoo reads his Good book.........HHHmmm things to do to day
1/ stone the homosexuals
2/ do not wear polyester
3/ do not add bacon to my big mac
4/ drag wife and small children into the midday sun to flogg some 2000yr old religous propaganda to people who did not ask for it
5/ take some slaves
6/ confess and cleanse last weeks stoning deaths
I wonder who's brain is misfiring?
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
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MickH
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 08:28 PM |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgRWJP1Ktww
The chorus says it all.
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Flintstones
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 08:30 PM |
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have a look at yadayahweh.com hopefully it will give you clarity about the questions you ask,
and for those knockers that are still posting in this thread, your souls have drawn you here for a reason, but your head won't allow your faith to
guide you....
let yourself go, learn and be amazed at what God has done for you and what he continues to do for you.
God Bless!!
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MickH
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 08:32 PM |
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You're talkin crap.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 08:47 PM |
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cheers mate! may the force guide you to.
lets hope you pull your head out of the book long enough to discover you own way, instead of preordained lifestyle from a work of fiction/hearsay
written 2000yrs ago. I hope you nourish your soul enough to allow it to decide your destiny (maybe your head can lend a hand). may your faith be
true
Q1. when a winner thanks god for letting him win, does that mean god forsake the other contestants?
Q2. when two sides go to war with God on their side .. who wins?
Q3. why is the old testament any more a relevent account of the start of mankind than say "the dreamtime"
may your head enlighten you. Blessed are the cheesemakers
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
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volumex
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 11:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DUBB61
lets hope you pull your head out of the book long enough to discover you own way, instead of preordained lifestyle from a work of fiction/hearsay
written 2000yrs ago.
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Can I just step in here. I spent the first 18 years of my life on your side of the fence, and I had exactly the same sentiments as
you. I thought all Christians were mindless imbeciles who had been brainwashed, etc, etc, etc. But then I met some interesting people. I remember
well being invited to this guys place, and it was pretty cool. We sat around chatting for a while, then some guy pulls out a bible and reads a bit -
and I was feeling a bit ripped off, no-one told me there was going to be "religious" stuff going on. Next thing they start praying, I'm looking
around the room thinking there must be other normal people here, I can't be the only one. Then eventually it ended, and they all looked up and
became normal people again. Over time, I gave them the usual questions (the bible is a complete fabrication, Jesus is just like Santa, etc, etc).
Eventually I caved in and read the Bible, however it was not like I read it in school when I was forced too, or at church when as boarders we got
dragged along - I read it without looking for the many faults and without thinking the whole time that it is bollocks - I read it to see what it said.
No word of a lie, it was like it struck me between the eyes. I was reading the book of Matthew, and it actually made sense. I discovered that day
that Jesus isn't just a word you yell when you have just belted yourself with a hammer, He is actually real.
So when you talk about brainwashing etc, I can tell you, having experienced both sides of the fence, the worst form of brainwashing is the lie that
the bible is fiction and God doesn't exist.
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MickH
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| posted on October 1st, 2008 at 11:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?
and charity is like a sexual lust?
right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is?
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He's in the post above....LOL
Gives a new insight on peer pressure eh???? Look everyone is entitled to believe in woteva they believe and people will have different views,thats
what makes us "us". I DO take offence by someone telling me why and what I should be or shouldn't be doing; in their opinion anyway.I don't push
my point of veiw onto people and i expect others to do the same by me. You are free to believe what you want,as am I.
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volumex
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 01:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is?
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He's in the post above....LOL
I DO take offence by someone telling me why and what I should be or shouldn't be doing; in their opinion anyway.
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So you feel its ok to insult me because of my beliefs. Whilst I really don't give a toss, you shouldn't be insulting people because of what they
believe. Whilst according to your post above, this offends you - then you might have to toughen up 
| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
You are free to believe what you want,as am I.
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Then why do you feel need to insult others who believe differently to you?
I guess you were right in one way, there was tremendous peer pressure to stay agnostic just to be "normal". However once I considered the pros and
cons of each choice, the decision was easy - but in practice there are difficulties. The choice is yours and I respect your position, however having
been on that side of the fence it saddens me when people won't open their eyes.
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MickH
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 09:24 AM |
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If you are going to edit quotes to suit your needs than you are twisting what is written and implied by posts made by others,to suit your arguements.
If you "respect my position" then stop preaching to me....if it "saddens" you then toughen up. My eyes are open and what I see is clear to me,just
different to what you apparently "see".
As to why I'm here on this particular page....I'm moderating.
Yes I have deleted very offensive posts. Lets not turn this into a slagging match then?????? I will even try to stay posetive ........
Like I've said all along...each to their own.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 10:20 AM |
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I find it interesting that as this thread has progressed it's the skeptics that have started to take the axe to the believers. And with all due
respect Mick, pls don't give me the "don't turn this into a slanging match line". You (and others) have been "slanging" things at believers. Now
I don't care really cause I'm happy to defend my position, but lets at least be honest. Yes, I've given Mr Dawkins a hit, but I think it was
deserved. Because some of his explanations of Darwinian Impulse look even more improbable and baseless than anything Jesus said. He is a religious
fanatic just like Osama Bin Laden. How can you "devote" your life to fixing wrong beliefs and not call it a religious mission of some sort. His
beliefs are as dogmatic as the Pope's. The difference is, he paints himself as neutral because he has a bunch of academic cardboard nicely framed and
hanging on his office wall.  BTW, his comments about the
reliability of the bible are based on the dodgy opinions of a "german language" professor. No one in the field of history agrees with him.
If you want to answer the question re each to there own, figure this out. Is there such a thing as real truth? I think there is otherwise nothing we
do has any real measure of good or bad. Interestingly, Mr Dawkins thinks there is such a thing as evil, but I don't think he can figure out where it
comes from. Truth to him means measurements, but I think anyone else can see that there is much more to it. Jesus says he is "the truth". Figure
that one out. 
But yes, lets try and keep it civil. 
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MickH
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 10:58 AM |
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I can't comment on Dawkins as I didn't read it,nor am I interested. The "slanging" as you call it is from BOTH "sides".....
"The choice is yours and I respect your position, however having been on that side of the fence it saddens me when people won't open their eyes"
Thats "slanging" as you say....the implication is that "your wrong and I'm right" attitude,which I dissagree with. Why are my "eyes not
open"???? I see things differently,but yet I get told I'm wrong???
And for this "mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?
and charity is like a sexual lust?
right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? "
So it's alright for YOU to slag ff at someone who has a different belief to you???
The funny thing is it always ends up with "one side" defending itself against the "other",which ever way you want to interpret that....You believe
you are "right" and all others are "wrong" to not believe what you do so the arguement is there for the taking. You know you're welcome to ring
me as I'm not deliberately off to slag out on anyone.Your beliefs are yours and good for you!!
0404047162
I have a different point of veiw and you should respect that in my opinion what you "believe in" I fail to see the reality in at all. Trying to
justify yourself is a real turn off as all you are doing is preaching......
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pete wood
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 11:01 AM |
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Actually, I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was just saying you were having a crack at us.
I do respect what you believe, but yes I do think you are wrong. But that's ok, you think I'm wrong too.
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Mick058
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 11:30 AM |
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We are on teams here really - one side believes, the other doesn't. Thats what makes the thread interesting to read.
People make up their own mind as to which side they want to be on (though there are more than 2 sides)
Interesting to hear where people are at with the 'what is the point of life' question.
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MickH
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 11:46 AM |
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See....now we're all getting along!!!
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pete wood
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 12:27 PM |
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Mick in answer to your previous question, I think it's ok to have a stab at Richard Dawkins. He's put his view out there and what happens when you
do that is you get public criticism. I just subjected my new album to critique in the form of a review and bits of that stung a bit. Putting things
out in the public arena means criticism and that's a good thing, otherwise we'd be like China or some other tightly controlled society where what
you think can get you jailed. However, I'm trying not to get personal with people here on the forum.
I would be interested to know if people can actually detect any sense in what he is saying re "darwinian impulse". The term seems just as vague to
me as terms like "God's prescence" do when people talk about them...not to say that I haven't experienced the latter, I have, but you see what I
mean.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 12:46 PM |
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More from the BBC:
[size=6]Why are Beliefs Held so Dearly?[/size]
Why do people die for their beliefs? Why will they kill for them? Just what is it about beliefs that makes friends fall out, and turns the suggestion
'let's just agree to disagree' into wishful thinking?
[size=5]Logical Levels[/size]
Our beliefs and values are core to who we are. This view has been formalised by Robert Dilts, who was one of the early developers of NLP(1) along with
Richard Bandler and John Grinder. Dilts developed a model of human behaviour he calls 'logical levels'.
In this particular model, we are each of us in the middle of our own world. In one direction the self reaches out towards the Family, then Community,
and then the World. In the other direction, the self reaches out through Identity, Values and Beliefs, Capabilities and Skills, Behaviour, and the
Environment.
Thus:
World
l l l
Community
l l
Family
l
[size=6]Self[/size]
l
Identity
l l
Values and Beliefs
l l l
Capabilities and Skills
l l l l
Behaviour
l l l l l
Environment
We can test this model by considering how personally someone will take a challenge, and how pleased they will be by a compliment, depending on which
level the remark is directed at:
'Messy offices you have here' is not particularly challenging; and equally a compliment along the lines of 'you live in a nice town' is merely
social chit-chat. These operate on the Environmental level.
'I get upset by the way you contradict me in front of my boss' is more likely to provoke a response; and 'I like the way you always take time
to find out how the client is doing' is a nicer compliment. These operate on the Behaviourial level.
'You really should not do marketing presentations, you do it very badly' is getting much more personal; as is 'We need you to write up this
paper, you are the only member of the team who can put our case across so we will win.' These operate on the Capabilities and Skills level.
'What you are saying is completely immoral, and fundamentally flawed because...' cuts even nearer to the bone; and 'I completely agree with you
when you say that this is the way to maintain ethical integrity' is a much more powerful endorsement than any of the others. These operate on the
level of Values and Beliefs.
'You are a stupid and illiterate fool, a complete idiot' is how the most aggressive insults are structured; and the most powerful compliments
are along the lines of 'you are a complete star' or 'you are a wonderful human being, beautiful in mind, body and soul.' These reach to us so
deeply because they operate on the level of Self.
[size=5]The Model in Practice[/size]
This way of examining how we look at the world is useful because it enables us to make our praise, and indeed our criticism, far more effective by
selecting the level we aim it at. Interestingly, John Grey(2) points out that men respond best to compliments at the Capabilities and Skills level:
'...you make me feel like a natural woman'(3) while women respond better to compliments at the Identity level: '...you were wonderful
tonight'(4).
It is also useful, because it gives us a framework to assess when we may suddenly and inadvertently be treading on dangerous ground.
[size=4] If religion to me is a few fancy buildings in my local environment or just a pattern of habitual behaviour at the weekends, while
your faith is the core of who you are, then my flippant remark will be your blasphemy. This was exactly what happened to Salman Rushdie when Iran laid
a fatwa on him for blasphemy in his book The Satanic Verses. The western liberal reaction was not only horror, it was also confusion. They simply
could not see why the Iranians were so deeply offended. But the two groups were operating on different levels - it is no wonder they could not
communicate effectively.[/size]
We are having to deal with exactly the same issue on a geopolitical scale, and it is interesting, (and terrifying), to note that fundamentalism in the
Middle East is now being matched by rising fundamentalism in the West. It is arguable that the attacks of 11 September, 2001, were intended to bring
about this switch of logical levels within the West, from dealing with the Middle East on the levels shown as World or Environmental in the diagram,
to dealing with it at the Values/Beliefs or even the Identity level of American patriotism.
It is worth noting explicitly, since this is a project on belief, that religion can sit more or less anywhere within this model, from Environment
through to Self, but how the person experiences religion, and the amount of influence it has over the person's life, will depend on which level
within the model the religion is held.
[size=5]Conclusion[/size]
Like all models of the world, Dilts' model is only one way of looking at a small sub-set of reality. It is however a useful way of understanding why
people sometimes appear to overreact to innocent remarks, why others will happily die for their country and why some negotiations stall with no
effective communication being made.
But why should we react in these ways? Our behaviour has been largely determined by our evolution, but our development of faith has developed
alongside this, as is shown by the entry, "The Evolutionary Advantages of Faith."
1 Neuro Linguistic Programming, which is (among many other things) the study of the structures and processes of thinking.
2 Author of Mars and Venus
3 Carole King
4 Eric Clapton
Regards,
Matt.
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Mick058
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 01:28 PM |
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HA, We know where Matt's belief's lie in - the BBC (joking)
It is an interesting read, as was the first one you put up - i had heard that reasoning before.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 04:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Matt Ryan
But why should we react in these ways? Our behaviour has been largely determined by our evolution, but our development of faith has developed
alongside this, as is shown by the entry, "The Evolutionary Advantages of Faith."
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This is way of trying to explain faith, but my problem with it is that it leaves out the possibility that faith is based on fact. So I possit another.
That is, mankind has an inbuilt awareness of the divine power. Every faith is an expression of an attempt to connect with this divine power. Atheists
are the contientous objectors amongst all these expressions.
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MickH
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 04:43 PM |
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Perhaps "Atheists" are supported by FACTS and,not as you yourself have stated"....the possibility that faith is based on fact"..
This is where you and I differ Pete.You BELIEVE the Bible is fact. I dont.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 04:46 PM |
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How can faith be based on facts? The very idea of faith is that you a willing to bet (your soul/eternal life) on the fact that there is a missing
peice of the equation of life that cannot be explained. The theory of a divine power is strong in all sheletered or isolated societies and as they
evolve or become more knowledgeable these taboos/superstitions are slowly desolved/debunked and society moves forward.
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 08:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DUBB61
How can faith be based on facts? The very idea of faith is that you a willing to bet (your soul/eternal life) on the fact that there is a missing
peice of the equation of life that cannot be explained. The theory of a divine power is strong in all sheletered or isolated societies and as they
evolve or become more knowledgeable these taboos/superstitions are slowly desolved/debunked and society moves forward.
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I'll second that, faith is believing something without having absolute proof (no facts).
As proof (facts) emerge, faith is whittled away.
For example, a person who buys a vw with faith in themselves to do a resto, only to find that as they learn more about restoring (ie. fact finding)
that the job is beyond them.
Regards,
Matt.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 04:51 PM |
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I think faith is about something that is hoped for without having ALL the facts. If there was no facts at all, there is no basis for anything. People
have faith in science because of the facts it's already provided. People have faith in Jesus based on what he's already done. If I can compare it
this way, we trust what science has to say because of the books it is recorded in for the most part. Christianity is the same, only people who follow
Jesus trust in the facts recorded in the bible. That's not to say that the bible is a science book because it isn't, but hopefully you see what I
mean.
And Mick I get that you don't believe because you don't trust the bible.
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grogy
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| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 05:37 PM |
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it be interestin to know how many that have critized the bible on this thread have actually read right thru cover to cover and tried to understand
it , or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them
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newoldmanx
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| posted on October 3rd, 2008 at 06:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by grogy
it be interestin to know how many that have critized the bible on this thread have actually read right thru cover to cover and tried to understand
it , or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them
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yeah id have to agree who has read these books cover to cover and tried to understand without basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have
told them
The Vinaya Piaaka
The Abhidhamma
The Sutta Pitaka
Holy Analects
Holy Akaranga Sutra
Holy Kalpa Sutra
Holy Bhagavad Gita
Holy Confucian Analects
Holy Mencius
The Doctrine of the Mean
The Great Learning
Holy Bible old and new
Holy Koran
Holy Talmud
Holy Tao-te-ching
Holy Chuang Tzu
Holy Upanishads
Holy Veda
Holy Torah
Holy Kojiki
Holy Nihongi
Holy Kitab I Aqdas
Holy Kitab I Iqan
to name a few......
its just a car for f*%k sake
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