| [ Total Views: 25527 | Total Replies: 208 | Thread Id: 85506 ] |
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 PAZZAN
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 07:22 AM |
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isn't the old saying, its not how much you got but how you use what you got
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 11:14 AM |
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can someone explain how the AFR works,,,, that flat spot "44 idf green line" between 80kmh-113kmh, does that mean its running lean?? it dips up
and down a lot even with the ingection...i thought u can tune that out with FI so it has a good AFR reading....daah me stupid.....and what is a good
AFR reading...
it seems the 44 idf still made more hp in certain area's.....
anyways hope u got good nappies with your new powerful donk......
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 matberry
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 11:23 AM |
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My intepretation, is the dip is where the engine itself has some small area that lacks something, whether it's manifold length, exhaust design, port
work or about a million other posibilities. The efi has smothed the power delivery in that area, so I'd reckon Dave would be stoked.
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Sides
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 12:18 PM |
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Yeah - pretty much what Matt's said - tho I don't know that stoked is a strong enough term for it !!!
The basic aim is to get the smoothest AF curve that gives the best & smoothest power curve, obviously while staying within safe limits. Somewhere
around 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT I think is the target, with it varying both up and down from that depending on load, throttle etc. At cruise along a flat
level road you want to be closer to 14.7:1 for example.
With the IDF's there were big issues where the engine hadn't yet come onto the cam... no matter what combination of jets and vents we tried, to get
a good AFR at the top end would result in a horrible richness in that mid range. The flat line is where it's gone so rich the sensor can't read
it... basically below 10:1. The compromise then was to stick with the combination that gave the best power curve, and just drive around the mid-range
hole.
With the EFI you get a lot more precise control over things, but the ECU needs all the lookup tables populated wiith the right values for that
specific engine combo, and that can take a LOT of time to get right.
I've really only just started on the process, but spend enough time at it and you could have your AFR curve dead flat right across the rev range at
any combination of throttle, temperature etc. V8 Supercar and Formula 1 teams spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on the dyno getting their maps
spot on... car manufacturers probably spend even more. That's what "chipping" a modern car is about... you're changing the map, so altering the
compromise that the manufacturer settled on.
The curve I have up there is from the power run that was done when we had the base fuel table in. There was more fine tuning done after that,
including things like adding in more fuel when you jump on the throttle to get rid of the lean spike, taking a bit of fuel out where it was over rich
etc.... just I didn't bother doing another power run after all that since we didn't touch the top end.
Finally, the Haltech can log all of this out for me to look at later and then make as many adjustments as I like, so it can become a continual
tweaking process without having to go back to the dyno all the time... and being an IT Geek, I love that analyze, tweak, re-analyze sort of
process.
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Sides
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 12:19 PM |
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Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
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Jak Rizzo
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 12:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
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no , we hardly ever hear from u, where have u been?
Jak
PS Dave, re the hp comments, my theory is, if u keep using the same dyno all the time, then the changes /increases in hp are relevant. There are
people out there that drive around to find a dyno that will give them the figure that they want. Don't get bogged down (get it, bogged down) with
your drag times, your car is built for other purposes. Put your engine in one of those drag/street? cars, the drag times would be completely
different.
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 02:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Yeah - pretty much what Matt's said - tho I don't know that stoked is a strong enough term for it !!!
The basic aim is to get the smoothest AF curve that gives the best & smoothest power curve, obviously while staying within safe limits. Somewhere
around 12 - 12.5:1 under WOT I think is the target, with it varying both up and down from that depending on load, throttle etc. At cruise along a flat
level road you want to be closer to 14.7:1 for example.
With the IDF's there were big issues where the engine hadn't yet come onto the cam... no matter what combination of jets and vents we tried, to get
a good AFR at the top end would result in a horrible richness in that mid range. The flat line is where it's gone so rich the sensor can't read
it... basically below 10:1. The compromise then was to stick with the combination that gave the best power curve, and just drive around the mid-range
hole.
With the EFI you get a lot more precise control over things, but the ECU needs all the lookup tables populated wiith the right values for that
specific engine combo, and that can take a LOT of time to get right.
I've really only just started on the process, but spend enough time at it and you could have your AFR curve dead flat right across the rev range at
any combination of throttle, temperature etc. V8 Supercar and Formula 1 teams spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on the dyno getting their maps
spot on... car manufacturers probably spend even more. That's what "chipping" a modern car is about... you're changing the map, so altering the
compromise that the manufacturer settled on.
The curve I have up there is from the power run that was done when we had the base fuel table in. There was more fine tuning done after that,
including things like adding in more fuel when you jump on the throttle to get rid of the lean spike, taking a bit of fuel out where it was over rich
etc.... just I didn't bother doing another power run after all that since we didn't touch the top end.
Finally, the Haltech can log all of this out for me to look at later and then make as many adjustments as I like, so it can become a continual
tweaking process without having to go back to the dyno all the time... and being an IT Geek, I love that analyze, tweak, re-analyze sort of
process.
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interesting ,i know fakall about this stuff dave its all way over my head....one day!!! if u dont mind me asking,how much for all
the efi setup....
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 03:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Wow - sometimes I write a lot of words, don't I !!!
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PS Dave, re the hp comments, my theory is, if u keep using the same dyno all the time, then the changes /increases in hp are relevant. There are
people out there that drive around to find a dyno that will give them the figure that they want. different.
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Yep completely agree. The use of the Dyno is to measure changes made, and to confirm whether you are going forward or backwards with your
development.......clearly the injection and Twin Plugs has moved the engine forward from its previous setup.
BUT, if you want to claim how much HP a motor produces then you need to back it up with a drag run.
Weigh the car, run it down the strip and see what MPH you get.........its simple physics, regardless of what the "purpose" of the car is for and
what your ET is.
The EFI will certainly give you a great advantage in tuning and getting the best out of your combination 
As Chris has asked, what is the cost ?
I'm assuming around $4500- $5000 all up?
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Sides
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 05:19 PM |
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Yup - agree with most of that Craig... I'm doing this whole thing to have more fun, not claim any particular hp number or whatever.
Drag racing isn't my thing, but yeah - I'll definitely take Jezzi out to Willowbank at some point like Reub's suggested. Not out of a need to prove
anything - just as part of my learning/experimenting and also doing stuff with the rest of the Volksy dude's around Brissie.
$$$ wise you're about right. Depends a bit on what you do and don't count as part of the job... I've done things like converting to alternator,
setting up a new breather system etc. in the process which others may not. Also depends on how much you do yourself compared to letting the dyno guy
do it for you.
Obviously simplifying the setup would get the $$$ down lower too:less fancy/different ECU, or even a DIY type such as a
MegaSquirt
running wasted spark rather than direct fire (less coils, a cheaper ignitor, no need for sync-ref/home sensor setup)
less optimally sized injectors (oddly going for say 400cc injectors over the 315's would save a couple hundred bucks)
single throttle body instead of duals
simpler fuel system (e.g. an internal swirl pot style would only need a single pump and filter)
simpler plumbing rather than AN stuff
plus a whole heap of other things I haven't thought of...
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Sides
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 05:35 PM |
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Heh heh - no-one likes a smart @rse Jak !!!
But yeah - ta for comments dude. It's been ton of fun getting it to this point, and I'm stoked with the result so far... and obviously some more fun
for me to have with in there still...
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
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'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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Gracey
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| posted on October 6th, 2010 at 10:38 PM |
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Kudos Dave for getting the injection up and running in such a short time.
From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a
lot of work.
Should be a sweet running combo once the fuel curve is optimized.
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 7th, 2010 at 06:47 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a
lot of work.
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 how you figure that
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Gracey
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| posted on October 7th, 2010 at 01:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
From what I can see the twin plugs must be doing wonders for your engine in the lower to mid rev range as your fuel curve at those revs still needs a
lot of work.
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how you figure that
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Personal experience, I have a 1916 with a Pobjoy cam that starts at about 4200rpm (similar to Dave's) it's also twin plugged with wedge port heads
and 44 idf's.
Just like Dave's car my car goes super rich before it comes on cam (the motor doesn't care if it's injected or carbs) rich is rich.
Without twin plugs the motor doesn't have much bottom end due to cam overlap etc causing excessive richness, by adding twin plugs suddenly the same
motor with the same jetting has fantastic low end power.
Hence the reason I think the twin plugs are doing wonders for his motor in it's current state of tune.
Andrew
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hellbugged
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| posted on October 7th, 2010 at 03:46 PM |
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cool thanx.....i see a lot more work in that fuel curve via programming to be done........the motor seems to react alot to slight deviations in the
air/fuel ratio.
love the way the funky HP curve corresponds directly with air/fuel devos in the graph tho.
be great to see it optimised and the relavant "flattening" of the power curve as a result in the future.really looking at it i think the injection
will make more power right through
as Dave has noted, it will be a long long haul and the logging of the haltech will come into it's own once he gets some good miles under his belt and
some experience manipulating ALL it's options.
ceratinly off to a good start
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Gracey
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| posted on October 7th, 2010 at 07:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
cool thanx.....i see a lot more work in that fuel curve via programming to be done........the motor seems to react alot to slight deviations in the
air/fuel ratio.
be great to see it optimised and the relavant "flattening" of the power curve as a result in the future.
as Dave has noted, it will be a long long haul and the logging of the haltech will come into it's own once he gets some good miles under his belt and
some experience manipulating all it's options.
ceratinly off to a good start
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I agree, once he gets the fuel curve optimised it should result in a very flat usable power curve.
I have to admit that I didn't realise how much work/time is involved in programming an injection system!
Don't some of the computers have a self tune function?
Or is this just for the initial tune?
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vassy66T1
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| posted on October 8th, 2010 at 05:55 PM |
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Hey Dave
It is all looking very good. Well done.
By the way, remind me not to publish my dyno chart when I build my engine .... geez 
Let me know when you are fronting up to Mt Cotton again. 
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Sides
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| posted on October 8th, 2010 at 06:40 PM |
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Yeah, agreed - it's a good start, but definitely more to do. I've already started marrying up the base fuel map to the power curve and can see a few
tweaks to make.
Gracey - yep, the ECU has got quite a few functions to make it faster to tune:
first and simplest you can put it in closed loop where it compares the actual AF to a target AF table you put in, and then adjusts injector
timing on the fly to suit. This is basically what most modern street cars do.
second there's a "Quick Tune" function, where you select a cell or group of cells in the base map, and have it on-demand set things based on
an averaging function that gets saved into the map
third there's the "linearise" function, where you enter a value for say 5000 rpm 50% throttle and another for 2000 rpm 50% throttle, and then
it averages to put values in the cells in between
finally the anal techie rev-head method of putting in the values for each cell yourself, then making small adjustments up and down to get it
spot on.
The map I have running now is a combination of the last 2 methods.
Marcus - nah, it's all good dude. I love the experimentation/learning aspect of it all !!!
Next event for me is Stanthorpe Sprints 23-24 Oct, then Mt Cotton the following weekend 30-31 Oct...
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'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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Snap Crackle Bang
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| posted on October 8th, 2010 at 11:12 PM |
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Waiting that long to hit the track "may" cause cancer!
Bring it to the IWMAC day/night autocross next Saturday night! It should have enough power to be "interesting" on the dirt track!
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Gracey
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| posted on October 9th, 2010 at 08:00 PM |
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Thanks for the injection info Dave.
Okay, so besides taking heaps longer to tune and taking a heap more work, what's the benefit to tuning the way your doing it?
Does it give you a more controlled or accurate map than say the quick tune method?
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Sides
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| posted on October 10th, 2010 at 02:30 PM |
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Yeah, no wories Gracey.
Basically the level of control would be the main thing.
I've heard good and bad about the Quick Tune mode on the Haltech... unfortunately couldn't try it out on the dyno the other day, as had to pull my
AF sensor to put the dyno one in (their snorkel setup didn't like the bend on the end of my muffler).
From what I understand the Quick Tune's main use is on dyno's... it does the averaging thing in real time rather than from a saved log... whereas
the method I'm using you can take a log, analyze and think about it and then apply the change.
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Join a car club - get car peeps
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danny m
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 09:23 AM |
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Hey Dave, to be competitive at a Mt Cotton should the hp figure started with a 2
Danny
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 11:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by danny m
Hey Dave, to be competitive at a Mt Cotton should the hp figure started with a 2
Danny
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hehehe.......and your surname needs to start with a M !
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vassy66T1
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 07:23 PM |
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How heavy is that car of yours Danny??? 
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danny m
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 12:11 AM |
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The new car is 959kg's which is too much but I've got some things in the works to get some weight out of it then then theres me of course, but then
again the engine and gearbox make up for the drawbacks
Danny
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 01:45 PM |
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Get on a treadmill Danny........I reckon you could save 30kg there easy !!!! 
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vassy66T1
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 07:14 PM |
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Cheers for the info Danny.
So around the 160rwhp and a bit under 800kg should be some good numbers
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danny m
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| posted on October 14th, 2010 at 12:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vassy66T1
Cheers for the info Danny.
So around the 160rwhp and a bit under 800kg should be some good numbers
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That would be reasonable but I'd reckon 959k's and close on 100 more hp would be more fun and yes Craig 30 would be the go but theres still more
squirt to be had and if they let me use all 6 gears (although the box wiegh a couple more kg's with 6th back inside) like the rumour I keep hearing
of I can stay 'healthy' for a little longer!
Danny
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vassy66T1
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| posted on October 14th, 2010 at 07:37 PM |
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Freak Danny ... how much rear wheel power?
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danny m
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| posted on October 16th, 2010 at 02:00 AM |
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On a Dyno dynamics it spat out 254 @8800
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T25Turbo
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| posted on October 24th, 2010 at 12:30 PM |
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Dave,
Good to see you and Jezzi are still going strong. would love to catch you at Warwick next year (2011) I have booked leave so hope to see you there.
Dad was telling me you had new EFI and well, here it is. He also tells me you need a hydraulic lifter on your trailer, or some lifted suspension for
Jez. :-) Say hi to the other guys who were at Warwick 2007 for me.
Luke D
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