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 OZ Towdster
A.k.a.: Andrew Westwood
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| posted on August 8th, 2007 at 08:59 PM |
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Rumour has it when power fails shes gunna run tha Lathe 1 smacko per hour plus penalties but not till she signs a workplace agreement of coarse
hehehehehe
[ Edited on 8-8-07 by A Westwood ]
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on August 26th, 2007 at 05:24 PM |
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This is a log of a 12.07@114.8 run that I bogged the start real bad(1.846 short time).
Black graph is RPM and Purple is air-fuel ratio (lambda)
The red arrow points towards the burnout part of the log.(part throttle so ignore mixture)
Blue arrow points to where the engine bogged down to below 3000 rpm
despite being above 5000 when the clutch bit.
Green lines show the run and the shift points,
while the purple bracket shows the rpm spread as each shift occurs.
The orange lines show how the Lambda varies with rpm as each gear shift occurs.
Without getting too complicated it is obvious that the engine becomes leaner with RPM rise.
The richest point can easily be leaned off,
whilst the leanest point can be changed if required with pill changes in increaments of .002".
Except for a couple of spikes in the air/fuel graph, the curve is generally, way-rich.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on August 26th, 2007 at 08:53 PM |
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So Dave, in terms of interpreting the rpm curve between shifts - I guess how large the dips are between shifts (ie. how much rpm drops) are somewhat
dependent on how quickly you change......but can that be used to cross check gear ratio selection?
As per previous conversations, you want the rpm drop to be smaller as you shift up (ie. gears should be closer 3rd to 4th vs 2nd to 3rd etc) right (or
am I wrong)? So looking at the rpm 'curve' changing from 1st to 2nd yields approx 2100rpm drop, 2nd to 3rd yields approx 2000rpm drop, then 3rd to
4th shows around 2200rpm drop (hard to tell accurately on screen)......is this sort of interpretation relevant or I am reading too much into it?
On another note, can you briefly explain the rate of rpm rise following each change? I understand in principle when changing from 3rd to 4th it takes
longer to build rpms (? load relative to the taller gear) - however I have never really critically thought about it in depth until seeing your graph
(I am a visual person that is for sure). So for example would the rate of rpm rise (gradient) be steeper if you had a 4th gear that was closer to
3rd?
I may have the above totally wrong, but I'm here to learn!
Thanks
Alan
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 06:29 AM |
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Yes Alan the dips are the gear shifts
and how far down, is the rev drop and is related to the next ratio.
The speed of the shift would be represented by the gradient on the downhill side,
and should be near vertical.
Yes with a curser on the original graph yo can identify the exact RPM at the gear shift
and what the new RPM is on the shift to the next gear.
I will show you next time you drop around.
The 'rate of rise' on the graph for each gear IS represented by the gradient of the graph,
and will be less for each next gear due to increased resistance of primarily the air(due to speed) but marginally from other frictional losses.
A closer ratio(which will make the car accellerate faster), will help to steepen the gradient,
but laws of physics will not allow the gradient to be maintained,
or increased to previous gradients,
unless accelleration rate is increased to the same as that lower gear
with added power(like a BIG shot of nitrous in that upper gear).
My rev drop in 3 to 4 is only marginally closer than 2 to 3
because of my initial choice of stock 1800 ratios when this tranny was assembled some 3 years ago.
So yes you are correct with everything, but the SIZE of the dips is purely ratio related, and the downhill gradient should be vertical but if the
shift is slow it will have some gradient away from this.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Stanley
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 07:08 AM |
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What is the ideal lambda for your setup?
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 07:28 AM |
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0.87 is the number suposidly. Mine reached this at about 7800 to 8000.
I am thinking that mine will prefer to be a bit richer than that,
but first i will try to get the a-f line a little bit flatter.
It varies between .76 and .81 in top gear, 5750 to 7340rpm.
It got up to .87 in third at 7800.
At this stage i should be able to leanout the mixture with the main pill, and then put a restricter pill in the 'hi-speed'.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 09:50 AM |
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0.87 equals 5.57 A-F ratio. I saw 5.1 going through the finish line at around 7200 to 7300 rpm.
Stoich' for Methanol is 6.4(1.0 Lambda).
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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tassupervee
A.k.a.: Knob Jockey
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 06:59 PM |
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Dave
Id not expect to see any great gains from getting you AFR's closer to the metho stoich.
A nice property of metho is that it will run and produce good power at far wider variations in mixture than petrol, which is quite fiddly and maximum
power is achieved over a very narrow AFR range.
The metho will support power from very rich to surprisingly lean where the very high relative octane rating of the fuel will tend to put off
detonation
Id be interested to see what the outcome is of some tweaking to the fuelling on your wagon.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on August 27th, 2007 at 07:39 PM |
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Thanks for the explanation Dave - I'm sure I'll have many more questions!
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 08:00 AM |
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OK,
all my 'foreigners' are done now,
so I can concentrate on my car.
Next job is to pull the transaxle, and change the ratios.
Current diff is :
5.4286
First 2.8333
2nd 1.8125
3rd 1.2609
4th 0.8889
These ratios with the 26" tyre will not be suited to 1/8 mile racing.
ie. too much rpm in 3rd, or not enough in 4th.
Last year I put 28" tyres on so that I could run through the finish in 3rd gear.
But all this did was slow the car down by about 2 tenths.
So this year I will have the 26" tyres,
and build a special 1/8 mile ratio box.
I will upgrade to the 1800 diff ratio for strength:
4.8571
And special gear sets frm Erco in the US.
First 3.3333
2nd 2.1667
3rd 1.5790
4th 1.3182
This equates to 7740rpm in 4th at 93.55mph(best speed last year)
Rev limiter will be left at 8000 (96.69 rpm) unless it wants to go faster than this.
I will post photos as I do the work.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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 vw54
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 08:11 AM |
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So your still building the box for Warwick
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 01:06 PM |
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HAVN' EVEN STARTED!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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vw54
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 02:02 PM |
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Buggar Will u bringing the D O G up to the drags luv those big eyes
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 02:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
Buggar Will u bringing the D O G up to the drags luv those big eyes
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They're not really that big. He just kept the dog in the car for a pass and took that pic after the finish line...
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 05:03 PM |
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I am not sure that dogs can get into Warwick...maybe?
I recall Simon from Volksrestore tried to take his Labrador/Retriever down the strip one time (Jamboree from memory) while it was asleep in the front
seat of his oval.
Not sure of all the details, but the officials stopped it all...why not said Simon?!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 05:23 PM |
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Today was preliminary wash up of all the replacement parts.
I also welded the synchro hubs onto 3rd and 4th.
I will have to hone the bores and surface grind the faces
to get the end float I want.
Yes that is the Kitchen sink.
The first step was to check the end floats of the gears and adjust accordingly.
I have used needle rollers from a pre 1963 bug box because there are more rollers, they are longer, and have metal cages instead of the plastic ones
used in later boxes.
Also the pinion bearing is the later model one with larger rollers and an integral thrust washer for first gear.
That needle bearing under it is for first gear.
Here you can see how much bigger the teeth are on first gear.
Also second gear teeth are massive.
More than strong enough for lots of skids.
The best part about this Erco mainshaft is that it has a spline instead of a key,
but the spline is smaller in diameter than the 002 style.(same as a 091 3rd gear spline).
This enables the hub to be pressed against a shoulder(like 113 boxes with the keys)
rather than against a circlip as in the 002 box.
A special hub is required , but as well as being made from strong steel insead of cast iron,
it also enables the use of either 113 or 002 3rd and 4th gears.
The other advantage was Albins did not have the ratios that I wanted,
and their freight was too dear.
Funny thing is that these are made by Albins and shipped to the USA.
What do you do?
[ Edited on 13-9-2007 by dangerous ]
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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vw54
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 05:45 PM |
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thats a nice Staino Kitchen sink mate are you building the box in the FACILITY ???
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Dero
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 06:25 PM |
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I have heard somewhere that its cheaper to get Albins gears from the US then from them direct... :duh
Not that I really have any experience with it...
Love the work dangerous
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 13th, 2007 at 08:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dero
I have heard somewhere that its cheaper to get Albins gears from the US then from them direct...
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That is not entirely correct.
The Albins gears are excellent quality,
but I have been buying FTC gears through Bergs,
and with the dollar being so good, it was quite a bit cheaper.
The freight was cheaper(US post) than what Albins wanted to send some from down there.
How hard is it to put it in a $7 dollar overnight post bag?
"we would have to charge half an hour shop labour to go to the PO."
To buy Albins gears overseas, the price is more initially,
and the companies that sell over there only use freight companies(not post),
so the cost would be a lot more.
They do have a wider selection of ratios and shaft options in stock over there however.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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mactaylor
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 07:36 AM |
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dave u have changed first gear ratio a fair bit was wondering why? its a bit shorter than your last box. Hope your muffins arent prepped on that sink!
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 08:29 AM |
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I wanted slightly lower ratio to reduce the chances of bogging the start.
When you factor in the change from 5.4286 diff up to the 4.8571,
then it is not all that much lower.
The 2.8333 with 5.4286 is equal to the 4.8571 with a theoretical 3.167.
The next lowest first available(Not custom order) was a 3.30 that FTC makes.
I have one of them on order,
but this one has a slightly stronger tooth count and closer second gear for 1/8 mile.
Lower gearing will always accelerate faster than taller.
So long as you don't go too far past the peak power,
or unsettle the car out of the hole on the 1-2 shift.
[ Edited on 13-9-2007 by dangerous ]
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 08:32 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
Hope your muffins arent prepped on that sink!
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The real truth is that the sink is actually down stairs in my work space.
It is a "kitchen" sink, so it is not a complete lie.
Muffins are made in the kitchen, and I even wash my hands!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Boostn
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 02:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
Hope your muffins arent prepped on that sink!
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A little Tip......
There are no blue berries in the blue berry muffins!
Ha Ha.........
[ Edited on 14/9/2007 by Boostn ]
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 matberry
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| posted on September 14th, 2007 at 11:25 PM |
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Go the Muffin man.
I think your motor may wake the sleeping dog as opposed to the Groover's '54!
Matt
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 06:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Boostn
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
Hope your muffins arent prepped on that sink!
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A little Tip......
There are no blue berries in the blue berry muffins!
Ha Ha.........
[ Edited on 14/9/2007 by Boostn ]
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 :puke
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 12:27 PM |
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With the old tranny apart, here you can see the difference
between the old mainshaft and new on the right.
I re-shimmed the pinion to move the pattern to where I want it.
This pinion came with a 0.4mm shim, and when I reduced the backlash the pattern mover back toward the heel.
So I added another 0.2mm (new shim 0.6mm),
and now the pattern is back to where it should be, just favouring the nose.
This is with .002" backlash.
Assembled gear stacks(wrong thrust shim on 4th)
A couple of different views of the Berg intermediate housing.
I bought and fitted this in 1993.
It came new from Bergs with the repair sleeve welded in from new.
"send all the shite to Australia"
Here I had to clearance the reverse shift rod to clear the nose cone.
[ Edited on 15-9-2007 by dangerous ]
[ Edited on 15-9-2007 by dangerous ]
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 12:32 PM |
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This is the fork for 1st and second gear.
It needed clearance ground on it to stop from rubbing on the bottom of the case.
This is a simple hardened sleeve used to adapt the early shaft diameter to the late bearing.
This photo shows where it will go.
But the thrust washer it should have, is the later one for the larger shaft.
Otherwise(so I found!), the sleeve will sit up too high.
The sleeve needs to 'seat' on the bearing race below, and the larger diameter thrust washer slides OVER the sleeve.
This is an early Bus reverse idler gear.
It IS wafer thin.
This was the only type that would clear the original 1.81 second gear.
But I still needed to counterbore it to get full engagement in the later 091 gear case.
I welded an ear onto the Bus fork so it would work with the bug linkage,
and used an 8mm FW dowel-reamer to make the hole.
I still needed to chamfer the Albins gear to make it all fit,
and some slight chamfer on the reverse idler as well.
Yes that is a dog hair.
In the tranny jig all working.
You can see with the new gear that it all clears fine,
and also where the reverse idler gear is clearanced,
Layed the teeth back a little on the large gear to clear the fatter shaft.
Old 5.4286 pinion on the left,
new 4.857 on the right.
Note thicker teeth.
This is even more dramatic difference between the 5.4286, and a 2 litre 4.57 pinion on the right.
Sorry about the cob webs.
There is an even larger 4.83 that has fatter teeth(26/6 tooth count) from a 5 speed bus.
This shows the areas requiring clearance in the bus case for the Berg 'Bus 600' intermediate housing kit.
[ Edited on 15-9-2007 by dangerous ]
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Boostn
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 01:52 PM |
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Nice Dave.
new cover too?
keep it coming allllll the secrets........................haha
VOLLKOMMEN ART
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nbturbo
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 02:03 PM |
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Those sort of pics are what allow "Legends" to be created.Beautiful work.Hope the pinion with the dog hair on it is in the retirement bin.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on September 15th, 2007 at 05:19 PM |
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The thin plate in the nose cone is purely for alignment.
The main mount point is at the intermediate housing.
Counterbored coupling sleeve to clear the splines in the mainshaft.
Circlip way in there.
Extended clutch lever.
Bolt on flange retainers instead of circlips and beveled washers.
All done,
now to bolt it into the car.
This is not a show car as you can probably see.
This shows all the bracing up to the cage back stays,
and also scatter sheild....DOH...engine back out..
scatter sheild on...
Ah! Engine finally back in.
Mega mission of a day.
[ Edited on 15-9-2007 by dangerous ]
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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