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 humpty
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| posted on October 11th, 2010 at 06:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Stanley
.... AF meter showed it was not lean under boost....
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How do you know for sure you are not lean at any point?.... Are you running a wideband data logger of some sort?....
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Boostn
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| posted on October 11th, 2010 at 07:37 PM |
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Hey Stanley,
The tune up might be fine?
You need a piston with holes under the oil ring not a slot. The slots will always break.
I think that the cheapest way to solve this problem is to get some 94s and up it to a 1915.
I don't see the big deal in doing the 1600cc thing. The 1915 will run 11's with that holley and be VERY reliable.
You could always offset grind the crank to de-stroke it if it's that important to you.
But that's just crazy!
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coletrickle
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| posted on October 11th, 2010 at 08:06 PM |
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Hey Stanley just my 2 cents,but I recon you could probally use a new set of engine studs and nuts.yours must be nearly worn out!
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essex
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| posted on October 11th, 2010 at 08:21 PM |
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Geez, hope I didnt jinx you in the pm I sent!
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Stanley
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 07:26 AM |
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| Quote: |
How do you know for sure you are not lean at any point?.... Are you running a wideband data logger of some sort?...
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I don't Simon. The couple of glances I took at the AF gauge going across the line showed between 10 and 11. But your're right it could be lean, but
shows no signs (other than piston damage) Can't log with my wideband unless you carry a laptop in the car.
| Quote: |
Hey Stanley, The tune up might be fine? You need a piston with holes under the oil ring not a slot. The slots will always break.I think that the
cheapest way to solve this problem is to get some 94s and up it to a 1915. I don't see the big deal in doing the 1600cc thing. The 1915 will run
11's with that holley and be VERY reliable.
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After having a good look at the piston last night your're right Nick, they are doomed to fail at the slots. And I know I could build a 1915 and have
it reliable but i'm committed to seeing the 1600 through at the moment. I get a kick out of a 1600 beating larger engines, and yes a turbo may be
cheating, but it's a performance adder just like NOS (topical). Might be on the trail of some cheap SR20 pistons too. Thanks for your input Nick.
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Hey Stanley just my 2 cents,but I recon you could probally use a new set of engine studs and nuts.yours must be nearly worn out!
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Who says I have studs and nuts. I have an set up like bonnet pins now. My wife thinks I do it on purpose to have an excuse to be in the shed.
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Geez, hope I didnt jinx you in the pm I sent!
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Nah all good. Best its ever run and with the least amount of damage.
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BeetleJuice
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 09:42 AM |
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After having a good look at the piston last night your're right Nick, they are doomed to fail at the slots. And I know I could build a 1915 and have
it reliable but i'm committed to seeing the 1600 through at the moment. I get a kick out of a 1600 beating larger engines, and yes a turbo may be
cheating, but it's a performance adder just like NOS (topical). Might be on the trail of some cheap SR20 pistons too. Thanks for your input Nick.
It's pretty cool what you are doing with a 1600!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 11:28 AM |
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Stay with the 1640........just get your tune sorted.
Remember increasing your boost is the same as increasing the CR ratio...so just make sure your fuel is up to it. No point trying to tune the carb etc
if you are already beyond what the fuel can handle 
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Boostn
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 08:15 PM |
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off set grind the crank to de-stroke it and use holden rods.
64mm stroke X 90.5mm pistons =1646cc
64mm stroke X 92mm pistons =1701cc
more rpm due to the rod to stroke ratio.
might work out cheaper?
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humpty
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| posted on October 12th, 2010 at 11:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Boostn
off set grind the crank to de-stroke it and use holden rods.
64mm stroke X 90.5mm pistons =1646cc
64mm stroke X 92mm pistons =1701cc
more rpm due to the rod to stroke ratio.
might work out cheaper?
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Nutter!.... Where do you get these ideas Nick?.... Way outside the box I'm sure! 
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Stanley
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 07:49 AM |
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For anyone interested and who hasn't seen it already have a look at this thread. Johannes has done a lot of development on "mouse motors" and is
getting 188.7hp @ 7670rpm from a NA 1603cc using a lot of stock parts. Read the thread for the thoughts behind what he does. It's a (long) great
read. And he certainly doesn't mind sharing his info.
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3257.0.html
Thanks again for the tips Nick. As Simon says (sorry) you certainly think outside the square. Also found some new 87mm forged SR20 pistons with rings
for $600. I just need to get hold of a piston to compare it to a volksy piston to look at deck height and CR. You'll notice Johannes uses 86mm JE
pstons.
Also 1641cc = 100ci......
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pete wood
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 12:26 PM |
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Stanley, 195hp @ 7700rpm. Here is the dyno vid...
http://www.youtube.com/user/VWBULLI#p/u/7/9868ihgGVk8
Impressive stuff. All he has done is apply F1 style lightening techniques to all the internal components, specifically the pistons, then open the
heads right up. I've emailed him about this motor too. He reckons a counterweighted crank (this one is factory unweighted) would make it a great
rally/circuit motor. So it's possible.
@Nick; which holden rods?
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 01:39 PM |
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Kinda funny really, a certain engine builder has been an advocate for short stroke (big bore) motors for decades and everybody seem to disagree with
his theory.......how the tide turns  
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pete wood
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 01:51 PM |
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I guess it all comes down to volumetric efficiency.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 02:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
Kinda funny really, a certain engine builder has been an advocate for short stroke (big bore) motors for decades and everybody seem to disagree with
his theory.......how the tide turns
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Personally I prefer a long stroke in a small bore, nothing worse than excessive side clearance from a bore that's been honed a few too many times.
Although if you only have a short stroke I suppose you have to make do with what you've got.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 03:55 PM |
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hypo-vw
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 05:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood which holden rods?
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I have done this conversion myself with great success back in the mid 1980's . I used holden red motor 6cyl conrods , but starfire 4 or blue motor
6cyl rods are much stronger .
I also stroked a standard 1600 crank to 75mm using the same rods and 94mm pistons and it had great torque and revved really quick due to the light
conrod weight .
BTW I was watching Frankenstein run at Warwick and was very impressed with your progress...well done
Team 
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PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)
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Stanley
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 06:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hypo-vw
BTW I was watching Frankenstein run at Warwick and was very impressed with your progress...well done
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Thanks Wayne...appreciate the encouragement. I'd like to think by Warwick next year i'll have the choice of turbo or Super charger.
Also the idea of a big bore and short stroke would help my 60 foot times. Until boost comes on it's still a mild 1641.
Good stuff Pete....sounds awsome
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SuperOwen
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 06:49 PM |
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I can't see how a shorter stroke would have any advantage for 60ft's. If anything I'd imagine a longer stroke would have an advantage with torque,
its a longer lever at the end of the day. I really cant see the point in sticking with the 1640 if decent pistons are going to run the same amount as
going up to 94's. Just imagine all that extra capacity to spool up a bigger turbo!! Just tell us all its a 1640 and keep a sheet over the engine in
the pits
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BeetleBug
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 09:04 PM |
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Interesting thread. IS E85 easily available down under?
Here is a 1641ccm street engine for you; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvkaZ7S0nOY&feature=player_embedded
- Original crank, not counterweighted
- CB h rods 5,5"
- Mahle 87mm pistons and cylinders
- Single relief engine case
- Fk-89 camshaft
- lube a lobe lifters
- cromolly pushrods
- scat 1,4:1 rockers
- Orginal heads with orginal valves 35/32,5mm. Ported intakes and exhaust.
- 1 5/8 exhaust
- HX35 turbo
- 1600cc injectors E85
- Autronic SM4 ECU with MSD 8245 coils
- air/air intercooler
It dynoed 354hp at 2 bar but blew a head at the SCC event (10.18 ET). He exchanged the head to a original, un-ported one which he use in the movie
above and took the car to the JPM dyno day last weekend. With one ported head and one un-ported head he dyno`d 391hp at 2.2 bar. Not bad at all from a
1641ccm budget engine.
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fish26
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| posted on October 13th, 2010 at 09:37 PM |
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Wow thats one quick bug, here's another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oKqSLvbj0M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2k-guT9VpA
I applaud you Stanley with sticking to the 1640 for as long as you have, I don't think people realize that its a lot more difficult building a fast
reliable mouse motor than a big bore 2L+ beast.
Johannes from JPMotorsport has proved that it can be done but unfortunately at a high cost with a lot of rotating mass cutting, custom machining,
custom pistons, light valve train, hand ported heads, creative friction coating and all combined with stock parts.
Speaking to him a few months ago regarding a similar engine to yours, he recommended I use the 88mm thick wall "machine in" pistons to keep the cost
down with either stock or counter weighed balanced crank and still keeping under the 1700, kinda old school 1678 with boost, I have since been
thinking about building a real mini mouse turbo 1300 twin port.
He is also a big fan of the 1915 combo because its efficiency of build and performance....but then it becomes more of a rat.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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hypo-vw
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| posted on October 14th, 2010 at 07:48 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fish26
I applaud you Stanley with sticking to the 1640.
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I would have to agree with you . Stick with the 1640 project.... it is a lot more satisfying getting big horsepower from smaller engines .
In 1993 I attended the VW nationals drags with my rotary powered beetle , my then apprentice Trent was driving a dark blue street beetle (which later
became the WPVW sports sedan ) with a 1640 engine I had prepared . The engine was dynoed at 101bhp @ the wheels 7800rpm NA on 48IDF webbers .
The 1640 was nearly as quick as the rotary , quicker than a Hellbug built 2.2 injected bug and quicker than a 1600 turbo bug also running at that
event .
Stick with it Stanley...more horsepower and reliability to come mate .
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FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)
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johny rotten
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 06:39 AM |
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those numbers are a bit hard to believe 
101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
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hypo-vw
A.k.a.: Wayne Penrose
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 07:20 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
those numbers are a bit hard to believe
101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
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was running cr at the time of 12.8 and avgas fuel , the same engine now is running a cr of 11.4 and running 98 ulp on the speedway turning to 7800rpm
constantly and put out 93bhp @ the wheels with 40idf webbers...
whats so hard to believe ?
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FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
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PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)
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Stanley
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 07:35 AM |
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I guess that goes someway in answering my concerns about 87mm Mahle pistons. Thanks BB for taking time out from the mouse motor thread to pop in.
They are good numbers Wayne and again what's not believeable about it...
Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....
Thanks for everyone's input and I welcome any discussion or advice.
Cheers
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hypo-vw
A.k.a.: Wayne Penrose
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 07:51 AM |
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in my 1640 engine , I am using a scat 69 forged crank , 5.4 H-beam rods , 87 Mahle forged pistons , 42x38 heads .
when it was dynoed at 101bhp , the engine was running a Bernie Bergmann full-circle counterweighted crank with Pauter pro-series aluminum rods ( which
are still sitting on the engine bench waiting to be fitted to a 1916cc turbo buggy) I have had great success with the mahle 87mm forged pistons....in
my opinion you should go this way and stay with the 1640....
Team
FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)
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pete wood
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 08:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
those numbers are a bit hard to believe
101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
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why? Hellbugged's (Daimo) 1776 cracked 100rwhp at the dyno day last year. A 1640 isn't that much smaller.
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 matberry
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 08:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Stanley
Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....
Cheers
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Yep, going by the Lounge Mouse Motor thread, you are cheating Stanley.
I'm liking what I see here, I've got a few engine bits around that may soon be enough to challenge Waynes 100rwhp.......Shame I never dynoed the
custom 1300 85.5 x 56 twinport race engine I built for the '98 Targa, not in the running I admit as it was very mild cr but certainly in the
comp....
ps don't worry about Johnny Nice Fella....he doesn't like stuff that others do.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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humpty
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 10:31 AM |
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Turbo's are not cheating.... Making do with an inefficient engine is just plan stupid!.... NA or otherwise.... Do what you must to make the power and
enjoy the ride.... Naysayers can go jump.
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matberry
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 01:30 PM |
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N/A , Turbo, blown or gas....... or what ever combination of all that you can come up with, it's all good to me. I appreciate any form, even stock,
when an engine is built right and does what it's intended for, I'm happy.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 01:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
those numbers are a bit hard to believe
101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
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1640cc producing 101hp = 1916cc producing 117hp
or = 2332cc producing 143hp
1776cc producing 100hp = 1916cc producing 107hp
or = 2332 producing 131hp
So why would it be hard to believe a 1640 producing 101hp, when clearly there are other combo's on this forum producing a lot more HP/cc ?
What I find hard to believe would be how you can get CR 12.8:1 with a 1640............how did you achieve that Wayne ? Dome top pistons ?
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