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 bugzla
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| posted on December 24th, 2012 at 12:15 PM |
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oxyboxer or kombi 2lt motor or suby
im tossing up on rebuilding my 1.8ltr kombi motor or converting an wasserboxer to air what are the advantages and disadvantages between the 2 rebuilds
it will be street driven every day in my beach buggy i like the look of mickh's ej22 conversion but would like to stay aircooled because of radiator
placement and panel cutting i dont know wether to go down that road any input would be great
cheers
stevo
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vlad01
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| posted on December 24th, 2012 at 10:20 PM |
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stick with the type 4 or suby.
wasserboxer still retains the type 1 bottom end as far as I understand and said to be not as bullet proof as the type 4 or suby engine in the bottom
end department. and a lot of work involved to make a oxyboxer from a not as good foundation so it doesn't make any sense to do it.
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mactaylor
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 06:06 AM |
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wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on
shoptalk.
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hellbugged
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 06:11 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on
shoptalk.
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X2 
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mactaylor
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 06:52 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on
shoptalk.
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X2
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great minds!
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 matberry
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 07:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on
shoptalk.
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X2
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x3
Wasser bottom ends are STRONG, but unless you really know your stuff and can do most of the build yourself, expect to spend plenty.
If it's a more mild engine with budget constraints, I'd recommend using the 1800, either offset grind the crank into a 2.0 litre or put in a bigger
one 
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Bone
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 08:30 AM |
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My experience recently is EJ22. The whole conversion cost under $2000 including donor car. I done all the conversion myself excluding the wiring loom
cutdown. (AM auto Noosa)
So for ME this combo is great in a baja as I can hide my radiator up front behind nose. Im very happy with the power, economy and smoothness of it and
availability for engines if need be.
I have never heard ANYONE say "I regret this and want to go back to type 1 or 4 vw donk. I think you should do the sums and also test drive a EJ22
powered buggy if possible. I'm not discouraging Type 4 powered buggy but the subi option was best for myself.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 11:10 AM |
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An oxyboxer conversion isn't the hardest thing in the world, but unless your a backyard machinist I would steer clear. I tried years ago, the studs
were seized and snapped in the case and were a nightmare to get out and the 76mm crank was bent and cracked. This was before I could just buy a
preclearanced CB aluminium case, which is the way I would go now. The German wasserboxer case may be better material but not sure if it's worth all
the effort.
Subi's may not be perfect but make a lot of sense I think.
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coletrickle
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 11:59 AM |
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Only plus I can see in a subi is it's cheap other than that they have don't have a lot going for them.As an example what can you fix on the side of
the road/ track?
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 01:28 PM |
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If that was a valid argument we would all still be riding horses. The whole point is they shouldn't need fixing on the side of the road or track!!
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11CAB
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 01:38 PM |
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It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to
need to worry about it....
65 Meyers Manx
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Smiley
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 02:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 11CAB
It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to
need to worry about it....
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I think the same thing but for the opposite reason.
A VW engine shouldn't need fixing on the side of the road. I've never had any troubles whatsoever in mine. They are very reliable is you service
them regularly and keep them maintained. Just like anything mechanical really.
Smiley 
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 02:23 PM |
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I wonder if datsun forums have these little fights between "purists" and guys who stick SR20's in 
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coletrickle
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 03:20 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 11CAB
It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to
need to worry about it....
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Thanks for calling me a hater,appreciate it.
Ok your out offloading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?
Subaru speedo pod burns out the circuit board.
Speed sensor fails.
Cam sensor fails.
Subaru ignition assembly(bit where the key goes).
Cambelt tensioner seizes.
Throttle position sensor fails.
Just saying there is a lot more hi tec things to go wrong and with all the bashing around etc.And at my mates subaru shop he's not short of work
stock or modified they still have problems.
Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people contemplating a conversion of any kind really don't have a grasp of how good an aircooled VW can be.Maybe after
the Sydney VW event I'll pull my motor out and stick it in Mattys mullet?
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11CAB
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 04:24 PM |
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It's no different to Hotrods..... Cool looking car with modern running gear, you don't hear those guys saying stick to ya old side valve engine so
you won't get stuck on the side of the road
65 Meyers Manx
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 05:14 PM |
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"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"
Ask this guy, he might know...
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coletrickle
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 05:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"
Ask this guy, he might know...
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Appreciate the humor but those etc cars have no bearing on what is being discussed here?so like I said what are you gonna do when those things go
wrong?
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psimitar
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 05:35 PM |
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Subie is super reliable with instant cheap power but if you wanna stay aircooled then read up on the wasser conversion.
Very strong case/crank and if you can do most the work yourself should be cheaper than a t4 engine rebuild.
There used to be a whole blog/site of a guy who did the entire conversion himself. Ended up with a torquey, reliable engine.
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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matberry
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 06:30 PM |
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If you want water, you could stick in a wasser. All VW, no conversions required. Baja exhaust bolts on with minimal modifiaction and I've seen more
hp/lb of boost with the VW watercooled flat four AND no extra weight out the back with the heavier ohc components.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot going for Suby, but as Col said, many people don't get to see what a good reliable hipo VW can go like. A well
built air-cooled installation will do many hundreds of thousands of kilometers, although with some more maintenance required with tappet adjustments.
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coletrickle
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 06:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
If you want water, you could stick in a wasser. All VW, no conversions required. Baja exhaust bolts on with minimal modifiaction and I've seen more
hp/lb of boost with the VW watercooled flat four AND no extra weight out the back with the heavier ohc components.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot going for Suby, but as Col said, many people don't get to see what a good reliable hipo VW can go like. A well
built air-cooled installation will do many hundreds of thousands of kilometers, although with some more maintenance required with tappet adjustments.
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Amen brother and praise be to cheese's
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66deluxe
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 07:24 PM |
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Or you could do this. A wasser converted to upright with a radiator in the fan shroud.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.
61 Karmann Ghia 2110cc type1 w Los Panchito's
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coletrickle
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 08:04 PM |
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Dam daimo that is a sweet looking engine!
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ragged
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 09:53 PM |
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The biggest problem for me is the radiator. But I don't have a problem with is setup.
I have plans for a 2l type 4 using hydraulic tappets and fuel injection and electronic ignition. Other than changing the oil, I just plan to drive
it.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 66deluxe
Or you could do this. A wasser converted to upright with a radiator in the fan shroud.
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Bone
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| posted on December 25th, 2012 at 10:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bugzla
im tossing up on rebuilding my 1.8ltr kombi motor or converting an wasserboxer to air what are the advantages and disadvantages between the 2 rebuilds
it will be street driven every day in my beach buggy i like the look of mickh's ej22 conversion but would like to stay aircooled because of radiator
placement and panel cutting i dont know wether to go down that road any input would be great
cheers
stevo
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Buggies are always a bit of a drain on the wallet. (Maintenance ,upgrades ect) So if you a want great power plant out back that
doesn't need tuning has a smooth firing order and factory EFI reliability , that won't keep costing you $$$$ just go EJ22 and your done. ..
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 03:22 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"
Ask this guy, he might know...
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Appreciate the humor but those etc cars have no bearing on what is being discussed here?so like I said what are you gonna do when those things go
wrong?
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Yeah, just joking around, I think that guy has an entire pit crew and truck full spares when things break down!! Al uxury most of us dont have...
Curious to know how well that upright wbx works, nice self contained solution, looks nice anyway.
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DubCrazy
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 09:20 AM |
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had both aircooled and subi powered baja's and both had plus points,
aircooled, simple easy but lacking power unless u spend a fair bit but they just keep going if looked after and if they do stuff up when out its
normally a easy fix
subi, cheap power and reliability but many more "gizmos" to stuff up and u need computers to tune (im not a mechanic so every time i wanted it tune
it had to goto a garage as i had no frigging idea even after i fitted a aftermarket microtech lt10 with hand controller)
neither let me down when offroading and the subi was a better set up and had power to waste but the aircooled did it all just not as quick, just ask
smiley he managed to go everwhere i did with a standard 1600 while i had turbo power, i just did it quicker :P
if i was to build another baja i would go a worked aircooled engine purely for the ease of maintenance , im building a kombi right now and that will
be subi for ease of highway cruzing and i want a/c
go with what ever u like the idea the best, so many arguments for and against for both engines it all comes down to personal choice and what ur happy
with..
steff............
Life with out a v-dub is no life at all!!!!!
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psimitar
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 12:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DubCrazy
had both aircooled and subi powered baja's and both had plus points,
aircooled, simple easy but lacking power unless u spend a fair bit but they just keep going if looked after and if they do stuff up when out its
normally a easy fix
subi, cheap power and reliability but many more "gizmos" to stuff up and u need computers to tune (im not a mechanic so every time i wanted it tune
it had to goto a garage as i had no frigging idea even after i fitted a aftermarket microtech lt10 with hand controller)
neither let me down when offroading and the subi was a better set up and had power to waste but the aircooled did it all just not as quick, just ask
smiley he managed to go everwhere i did with a standard 1600 while i had turbo power, i just did it quicker :P
if i was to build another baja i would go a worked aircooled engine purely for the ease of maintenance , im building a kombi right now and that will
be subi for ease of highway cruzing and i want a/c
go with what ever u like the idea the best, so many arguments for and against for both engines it all comes down to personal choice and what ur happy
with..
steff............
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Yup ^^^^WHS. If you want a VW donk to go well then you'll have tp do the maths and see how much it stacks up to doing an EJ conversion. Subie OEM ECU
just needs a OBD-II reader for any sensor faults that might occur and makes fault finding much easier. Tuning requires a daughterboard if you want to
change ignition or fuelling tables. Thta can defo get expensive
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bugzla
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 01:58 PM |
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thank you so much for your input guys loads of pluses and negatives ive been awaiting the rebirth of mickh's buggy on the road so i can experience
it with a ej22 i have the wasser boxer here but ill have to send the block out to get the modifications done some where the motor was running when it
was givin to me and when striped found it was rebuilt no so long ago just awaiting my mate back from the mines to give me some help with tuning my su
suck through turbo setup on my aircooled and we can go from there
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vlad01
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 07:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 11CAB
It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to
need to worry about it....
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+100000000000
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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psimitar
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| posted on December 26th, 2012 at 10:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
Only plus I can see in a subi is it's cheap other than that they have don't have a lot going for them.As an example what can you fix on the side of
the road/ track?
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Yep, subie's are completely untuneable. You can't get a 2.5l CDB with later twin cam heads and a good size urbo for a reliable 450bhp. And you
can't source all this stuff from UK or USA and save heaps over Oz scrapyard prices. Neither can you either stick a daughter board on the ECU or
install a Megasquirt for a completely tuneable ECU
Especially with the cost of HiPo VW parts in Oz I reckon you'd be spending about a third as much on a VW giving the same bhp as a EJ22 NA. As I said
do the maths and see how ya go
Love to see a thread on the wasser engine build when ya get the block back. CB 82mm crank with chevy journals running 94 B&P's and JCM heads on
top with 48IDA's and edis ignition 
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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