| [ Total Views: 1661 | Total Replies: 21 | Thread Id: 101460 ] |
|
|
 Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 04:41 PM |
|
|
Fitting mechanical fuel pump instead of electrical pump
Hi guys
I currently have an electric fuel pump on my EFI system in the car connected to the throttle body by 3/8" outside diameter aluminium tubing. I will
be removing the EFI system and installing dual carbies.
I understand that I can't use the EFI electric fuel pump due to the high pressure and that I need to either install a new electric pump with reduced
pressure or install a mechanical fuel pump.
I have the following question:
1. Ideally, I would like NOT have to replace the existing 3/8" aluminium tubing from the fuel tank to the rear. Can I simply bypass/disconnect the
existing electric fuel pump, directly connect to the fuel tank, install a new mechanical pump and directly connect that to the 3/8" aluminium tubing?
If so, are there any off the shelf "reducers" that will drop the diameter down to the correct size for the mechanical pump and fuel tank?
2. Is there a simple way to reduce the pressure in the existing electric fuel pump?
3. Any other suggestions?
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2220
Threads: 59
Registered: May 20th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: Need... more... shed... time...
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 05:04 PM |
|
|
Two to file under your option 3 I think Greg.
Presuming you have a return style system with TWO fuel lines running between tank and engine (one for supply, one for return), I would:
a) Replace the existing EFI pump with a low pressure electric pump and a good quality low pressure return style regulator and keep the lines as they
are (my preference).
or
b) Leave the existing EFI pump as is, but replace the EFI regulator with a good quality low pressure return style regulator to step the 40+ PSI down
to the 3.5 PSI that your carbs will like. This is similar but different to the "reducing the pressure in the pump" idea of option 2.
Technically you CAN do your option 1, but it's a bit of a hack IMHO and doesn't really gel with the "do it right" theme.
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 05:39 PM |
|
|
Thanks Dave
I didn't think you could use a "return" type system with dual carbies?
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:07 PM |
|
|
Hi Greg, I had a similiar scenario a while back.
My 70 Bug had an EFI rotary engine and had 2x 10mm fuel lines fitted through the tunnel and an electric pump under the tank.
Same deal, I didn;t want to run a new line or electric pump as I was fitting a stock VW engine back in.
I found 8mm-5/16" fuel hose had enough give to fit the 10mm rigid pipe so I capped one off and used the other as a supply fuel line.
Beside the gearbox I used a generic plastic fuel filter like this
That acted as a reducer allowing me to drop the fuel hose size back down to 5.5mm on the outlet side to suit the VW fuel line that comes through the
firewall tinware from the fuel pump.
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:10 PM |
|
|
Hi Joel,
What did you do regarding the higher pressure electric fuel pump?
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:14 PM |
|
|
I removed it and ran the stock mechanical pump.
It had been fitted under the tank near the mastercylinder so I just ran a new hose straight from the tank to the line in the tunnel
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:17 PM |
|
|
Cool!
|
|
|
ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
Threads: 280
Registered: September 11th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:32 PM |
|
|
you could just take the hoses off of the fuel pump and put a z200 etc fuel filter in between them, just leave the return line as is .
just put a stock vw pump on the engine .
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:41 PM |
|
|
Thanks Ian
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
Threads: 280
Registered: September 11th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Newcastle
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Happy
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 06:52 PM |
|
|
these look good to
http://www.vollks.com.au/store/D.I.S.-Ignition-System-Compufire.html
.
|
|
|
psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Posts: 2506
Threads: 148
Registered: January 1st, 2009
Member Is Offline
Location: North East Melbourne, VIC
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 10:59 PM |
|
|
I'd go with Sides first idea as you can buy elec fuel pumps at the correct 3.5psi output. This then means that you don't have to worry about any
overfuelling issue or having to shim the mech pump to reduce the pressure it creates.
Also, with the build quality of mech pumps these days you are also better off with the elec option for more reliable and troublefree motoring 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
|
|
 barls
A.k.a.: Mr indestructible
Super Administrator
Causer of Chaos and Mayhem
Posts: 9467
Threads: 295
Registered: June 22nd, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: cruising in denistone east
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
Mood: indestructible? and listening to the voices
|
| posted on April 3rd, 2013 at 11:13 PM |
|
|
had one of those but took it off after it left me stranded on the side of the road.
|
|
|
SuperOwen
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 868
Threads: 67
Registered: January 18th, 2009
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 07:10 AM |
|
|
How come no efi ?? Nothing wrong with dual carbs though. Use the larger line that's been installed and either step it down to the right size for a
mechanical pump as that should supply your motor just fine and cap off the spare return line. The CB and empi inline electric pumps put out the right
psi for webers, I think they are a walbro manufactured?? I think Rod has them on the shelf. Return style regulator systems are waaay overkill for what
you are doing but good. DO not dead head regulate the efi pump down to 3 psi for a few reasons.
The little drag buggy I'm running has a cb inline electric pump and no separate regulator, works fine with 48 dells on a 2.3 160hp +
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 07:41 AM |
|
|
Hi Owen,
Whilst I would have really liked to have had the EFI system up and running it was going to take far too long with too much mucking around to get the
car back on the road due to the fact that there would have been a lot or transporting of the new partly built motor and the car around from my place
to Rod's place and to the Dyno etc. I was getting concerned that the initial run in of the cam and motor was also going to be compromised. Also, the
cost kept adding up and it was looking to be economically impractical.
I really wanted to have a turn key solution so that Rod would supply everything (and be totally responsible and comfortable with the "technology" we
are using), and get the entire motor properly configured and running so that all I needed to do was to unbolt it from his chassis dyno take it to my
place, bolt it in and start her up! With the EFI configuration that just was not going to happen in a relatively short timeframe.
Having said all of that, I am still hoping to get the EFI configuration up and running sometime in the future once I have run the motor in and have
had sometime to enjoy driving the car as the manifolds, linkages etc that we will be using for the dual carbs setup can be used with CB EFI Throttle
bodies. So, I am planning to leave all of the wiring harness etc in the car.
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2220
Threads: 59
Registered: May 20th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: Need... more... shed... time...
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 10:08 AM |
|
|
Joel's suggestion seems OK too, but if there's the potential for going back to EFI then should also think about what's easier to do/undo.
When I built my car I put in a return style fuel system (with dual Webers) because I knew I'd likely one day go to EFI. Overkill yes, but it made the
convert to EFI really easy for the fuel side of things at least... just a case of use the existing pump as the lift pump, add the swirl pot and EFI
pump inline, change to an EFI regulator and plumb in the throttle bodies instead of the carbs and job done.
In all seriousness tho... since Rod's going to be doing so much of the work, what does he say you should do ???
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 10:48 AM |
|
|
Hi Dave
Rod and I discussed this yesterday and agreed that the simplest way was to install a new electric pump which he gave me yesterday.....I'm just doing
some more homework.
I need to check how the existing EFI pump is connected as I have a feeling that it is connected to the ECU for shutting it off in the event of an
accident. I need to see how it is wired and will be hopefully doing that today.
I'll let everyone know what transpires.
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
Scirocco Rare
Posts: 8636
Threads: 559
Registered: August 27th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney, NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Parrot Heading
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 12:19 PM |
|
|
Hi Greg
To make your fuel pump operate safely you need to use either a special tachometric relay or a double through relay, have read of my long winded post
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=92649&page=1#pid862368
Steve
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 01:02 PM |
|
|
Hi Steve
I'll definitely have a read.
I removed the tank to see how the currently installed fuel pump is installed and wired up. I traced the Positive terminal from the front of the car to
the area under the rear seat where the ECU and Alarm system are installed.
It is attached to a Narva relay ( http://www.narva.com.au/products/browse/fused ) and is attached to terminal number 87 (that's the light grey wire in the
attached photo marked A) in conjunction with a wire leading to Idle Control for the EFI (the green wire marked B).
There doesn't appear to be connected to the ECU but rather to the alarm?
Anyway, that's the update!
Regards
Greg
| Error |
| Sorry, you must be a registered user in order to download attachments. |
|
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 03:36 PM |
|
|
Hi Steve
The instructions I got with the fuel pump (it's packaged as EMPI but is stamped Carter) recommends a "safety circuit with oil pressure switch" be
fitted.
Carter (not you mate!) seem to have such a switch ( http://www.jegs.com/i/Carter/180/A68301/10002/-1 ).
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
Scirocco Rare
Posts: 8636
Threads: 559
Registered: August 27th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney, NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Parrot Heading
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 04:02 PM |
|
|
Hi Greg
When you get a chance to read my other post you will see that I used the stock oil pressure switch and only needed to fit a relay, it will be a
Carter set up as well.
Steve
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on April 4th, 2013 at 04:52 PM |
|
|
Thanks mate,
I had a quick read and missed the bit about connecting to the oil pressure switch.
Regards
Greg
|
|
|
Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 480
Threads: 76
Registered: September 30th, 2011
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on May 22nd, 2013 at 07:36 AM |
|
|
Hi Steve
Just a quick update.
I fitted a Collision Safety Switch (purchased from Ebay) and a Peel CP30 Safety Switch from Peel Instruments ( http://www.peelinstruments.com.au ). both are about $30 each and are very easy
to install and connect to the electric fuel pump.
The Peel CP30 basically provides power to the pump only when it detects a pulse from the tacho and for 2 seconds at start up in order to prime the
pump. It also means that you can turn the key to "accessories" and the pump will not start.
Hopefully both of these switches provide enough protection in the event of an accident or other issue.
Regards
Greg
| Error |
| Sorry, you must be a registered user in order to download attachments. |
|
| Error |
| Sorry, you must be a registered user in order to download attachments. |
|
|
|
|
