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 pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 02:41 PM |
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Kingpin front end and Heim joints
As per usual, I've been pondering cheap (or not so cheap) improvements to factory parts. I came up with this idea a while back...
Converting King/link pin arms and spindle over to Heim joints.
Seems to me that an upright shaft replacing the kingpin and a few threaded inserts in the arms would make for an easy conversion. I know the joints
need regular greasing, but so do the K/L pins so no great dramas there. The geometry would also remain pretty well identical and you could easily dial
in a degree or two of negative camber.
Now, I know you're gonna say, "just convert to ball joint" but I don't want to for a few reasons. First up, that would mean swapping pans and my
car is a great original car. Then there is the expense. However, the oval is up for a front end rebuild before too long so I'm trying to find a way
to make it more adjustable as well as restoring it.
Interested to hear people's thoughts.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 03:00 PM |
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http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=85650&page=4
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whathaveidone
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 03:04 PM |
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Beat me to it Craig!!!!
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nils
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 06:12 PM |
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YIKES! and I thought I stuffed with my suspension a lot, Very cool
Quit calling rust patina
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 09:35 PM |
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Macky's onto it and no slowing down for a old boy,lol....
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 09:44 PM |
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I wonder if that setup would be legal for the road though ?
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pete wood
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| posted on May 25th, 2013 at 10:43 PM |
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Well that's the $64k question isn't it. I'll have to have a chat to my good friend the blueslip inspector? 
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cnfabo
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| posted on May 26th, 2013 at 12:30 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
I wonder if that setup would be legal for the road though ?
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I know when I went over the pits with my sway bars with rose jointed links and they said they are not legal, so propably the same over there??
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sander288
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| posted on May 28th, 2013 at 09:36 PM |
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what is the legal aversion to rose joints?
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 helbus
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| posted on May 28th, 2013 at 10:00 PM |
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I am working on two projects that have rose joint front suspension arms. They are twin A arm type front ends. There is no problem with the rose joints
in these applications as the front suspension member itself is rubber mounted to the chassis. The engineer has stated that suspension must have an
absorbing mount somewhere to the chassis. So Strut front ends have this with the bushes on the lower arms. I am not familiar with front beams, but I
assume there is some absorbing mounts originally from the stub axle to the pan. Even if it is in the tube bearings.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 29th, 2013 at 06:33 AM |
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Link-pin front ends have NO rubber [or any other form of "absorbing mount"] between the front wheels, and the chassis. Does that make them
illegal?
There is the rubber between the chassis and the body.....does that count?
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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dangerous
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| posted on May 29th, 2013 at 08:09 AM |
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These are a great idea, but those joints will not last long for daily road use.
The other factor is the cost of quality rod ends, those big suckers are likely ove $100 a pop.
The factory trailing arm uses a needle bearing outboard and
a weired and shitty fiberous bush inboard(bakelite like a wireless greg?).
Pre 1960 had the shitty bushes in and out.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 29th, 2013 at 08:27 AM |
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Even having all fibre bushes would have little "absorbing" effect......anyway the torsion bars have solid connections.
I would never consider the Rose joints for road use. Mine are there mainly to get the 4 degrees negative camber that I wanted.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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mactaylor
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| posted on May 29th, 2013 at 04:20 PM |
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wouldnt be much dif between rose joints and bushes for road use only engineers opinions! ps can get good rose joints now!
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pete wood
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| posted on June 3rd, 2013 at 07:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
I would never consider the Rose joints for road use.
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Why? Surely you can lube them regularly same as a kingpin front end.
Re the price, I payed over $1k to have my last king/link pin front end refurbed between the kit, machining and labor. So $400 for heims sounds pretty
good.
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pete wood
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| posted on June 11th, 2013 at 08:39 PM |
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Hmm, been chatting to my blueslip man and he seems to think I'd be asked for a certificate with heims. 
Does anyone know anything about offset kingpin bushes to get a deg or 2 of neg camber?
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on June 11th, 2013 at 08:50 PM |
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why do you need that much neg on a slow road car ?
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pete wood
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| posted on June 12th, 2013 at 11:20 PM |
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coz I'm hoping it won't be slow forever?
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HappyDaze
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 08:20 AM |
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Like Crag, I am wondering why you you need lots of neg. camber on a road car, slow or fast.
The reason my [track only] Beetle has 4 deg. neg., and lots of caster, and toe-out....is to get the bloody thing to 'turn in', with the locked diff,
and A70 tyres. The rod-end link pins was a simple, economical way of providing camber adjustment. Just my opinion, but a road car [with good roadtyres] shouldn't need that much neg. camber, and may even become a bit ordinary [dangerous?] under brakes.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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pete wood
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 09:01 AM |
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So you think neutral camber is ok? It's just that I'd like to do some khanas in the car and like you say, understeer is always an issue with turn
in. A little neg camber always helps this.
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 matberry
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 09:26 AM |
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Please refer to the lap times at the last Wakefield Park event. I was running 135's with a 2" narrowed beam and stock camber/toe, and Bluey out
performed many modern cars with way better set ups on paper. !!!! I only ran a hand full of laps.
Another example, John Alder's F Vee is set-up using K/L specifically to rub the ball joint noses into poo.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 10:10 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
So you think neutral camber is ok? It's just that I'd like to do some khanas in the car and like you say, understeer is always an issue with turn
in. A little neg camber always helps this.
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Caster wedges, and 1mm toe OUT will help turn-in, then [providing there is enough power on tap] you can control the back end with the right foot.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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pete wood
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 09:11 PM |
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So what you're both saying is, "you need more power". 
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hellbugged
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 09:24 PM |
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I had a lot of fun in mine tuning up the handling before adding some power Pete
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pete wood
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| posted on June 13th, 2013 at 10:35 PM |
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What's your current setup Daimo?
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HappyDaze
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| posted on June 14th, 2013 at 06:23 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
I had a lot of fun in mine tuning up the handling before adding some power Pete
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Same here, Daimo.......over 50 years ago, on Michelin X tyres.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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sander288
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| posted on June 14th, 2013 at 07:11 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
I had a lot of fun in mine tuning up the handling before adding some power Pete
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Same here, Daimo.......over 50 years ago, on Michelin X tyres.
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Love my Michelin X tyres!
I've very limited power; handling is all I have... that and a Porsche key ring 
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HappyDaze
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| posted on June 14th, 2013 at 08:07 AM |
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The old 'Porsche Key Ring' trick......now we know your secret, Shaun.
They work even better than the Brock 'Energy Polarizer'.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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sander288
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| posted on June 14th, 2013 at 08:20 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
The old 'Porsche Key Ring' trick......now we know your secret, Shaun.
They work even better than the Brock 'Energy Polarizer'.
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Can't argue with Science Greg 
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pete wood
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| posted on June 14th, 2013 at 02:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
I had a lot of fun in mine tuning up the handling before adding some power Pete
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Same here, Daimo.......over 50 years ago, on Michelin X tyres.
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I'm very tempted to put 135s on every corner of the car and then set the suspension up on them.
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