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Author: Subject:  Time to re-visit all our rules - Buying and Selling
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posted on November 30th, 2013 at 11:21 PM
Time to re-visit all our rules - Buying and Selling


Hi there,

I wish to re-visit all our rules. The first set of rules I wish to re-visit is the Buying and Selling rules. We will continue to work through the rules every couple of months until they're all had a proper airing and updating.

It's been a very long time since we have had a think about how we run this place, and I want to make sure that the members of 2013 have a chance to be governed by rules we all agree on.

Please reply with discussion here, and we'll set up a poll with the options once we've had the discussion.

If you know folks who have left the forum because of these issues, invite them back so they can put their side as well.

Buying and selling rules

I set these rules a LONG time ago, before the changes to the federal Trade Practices Act and associated state Fair Trading Acts (or Sale of Goods act) changed. For example, the TPA no longer exists. I am not a lawyer. I do not know if we continue to need the rules we have in place, and it's been so long since we re-visited them, that it's embarrassing.

I would like it if we could continue to indicate where the car is and the price you'd like to get as I feel that has for the most part worked well, but I totally agree with some that it's overly bureaucratic.

I'd like to hear from you, our membership, particularly those who buy and sell cars and parts on how best to make these highly contentious forums work. I know that there will be competing ideas, and although I want consensus, let's discuss openly and honestly, and then put the various options to a vote.

What would you like to see changed?

How can we improve the buying and selling experience here?

Do you still want want a buying and selling forum in its current form?

Would it be better to provide a single forum that allows folks to post links to eBay, CarSales, etc, so that we're not in any way involved in the sale? This would require fewer if any rules.

Do you use search to find cars or parts? If so, if it goes away or becomes less useful, would that mean less time for you at AVDS?

Do you think we need to protect buyers? Sellers?

Are we harming or protecting them by insisting on providing the information we demand today?

As all sponsor advertising banners are going away on January 1st*, do you feel that you want to have a place for local businesses to post commercial ads in a forum? Or not?

Anything else I've missed?

What I'll be doing

I'll look at the themes of questions arising out of this discussion and put it to a vote in a couple of weeks. At that point, we will vote on it until Dec 31. The changes will come into effect on January 1.

In the meantime, there will be no more thread deletion or other moderation activities until the new rules come into effect on January 1. Please don't abuse this period.

thanks,
Andrew

p.s. Our old PHP based banner ads are going away in favour of just Google Ads at the top. If you want to advertise here via Google Adsense, I'll let you know a keyword that will find us most of the time.
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posted on December 1st, 2013 at 09:23 AM



Great idea Andrew !!!

Personally, I think the current rules worked pretty well, but sure - everything can be improved.

My 2c would be:
- Yes - need to keep a buying and selling section, and yes it needs a search. I've successfully bought and sold plenty of parts through avd, and helped with selling a couple of cars also. If it went away then pretty sure I'd spend less time on here.
- Linking to ebay, gumtree etc. is OK, but not a fan of the "only 2 hours left. no bids yet, but it has to go" type pimping that sometimes goes on.
- Spamming/junk/non-VW should go (to ebay, gumtree etc.)
- The latest fad of Expressions of Interest (EOI) should go also - man up and decide if you're going to sell, then put a price on it.
- I think requiring seller info is completely fair - mobile number and city/general location as a minimum. For people who don't want to stick to that and cite "privacy concerns" get real - there's no such thing as privacy any more.
- Protection... umm... isn't avd just an advertising medium, not a broker/participant in the sale ? How much protection do newspapers give for classified ads ? (serious question)




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posted on December 1st, 2013 at 09:52 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by Sides
Great idea Andrew !!!

Personally, I think the current rules worked pretty well, but sure - everything can be improved.

My 2c would be:
- Yes - need to keep a buying and selling section, and yes it needs a search. I've successfully bought and sold plenty of parts through avd, and helped with selling a couple of cars also. If it went away then pretty sure I'd spend less time on here.
- Linking to ebay, gumtree etc. is OK, but not a fan of the "only 2 hours left. no bids yet, but it has to go" type pimping that sometimes goes on.
- Spamming/junk/non-VW should go (to ebay, gumtree etc.)
- The latest fad of Expressions of Interest (EOI) should go also - man up and decide if you're going to sell, then put a price on it.
- I think requiring seller info is completely fair - mobile number and city/general location as a minimum. For people who don't want to stick to that and cite "privacy concerns" get real - there's no such thing as privacy any more.
- Protection... umm... isn't avd just an advertising medium, not a broker/participant in the sale ? How much protection do newspapers give for classified ads ? (serious question)


I pretty much agree with all that you have said Greg
To pick up on a couple of your points

" - Linking to ebay, gumtree etc. is OK, but not a fan of the "only 2 hours left. no bids yet, but it has to go" type pimping that sometimes goes on. "

If you allow linking I cant see any way it could be restricted and dont see the need

" - Spamming/junk/non-VW should go (to ebay, gumtree etc.) "

I think this could be open to interpretaition , If I want to sell a GPS is that VW related ? , What about a pair of old school skis or surfboard ? I often had a single finner on my dual cab .

"- The latest fad of Expressions of Interest (EOI) should go also - man up and decide if you're going to sell, then put a price on it. "

YES EOI is just a for sale without a price. Anyone who puts up a for sale with a price are seeking EOI . its never sold till there is sufficient interest and a price is agreed on but people know what they will take so man up and include a price. If not EBAY it.

I especially dont like this when people are flipping something and ask "what is a fair price" Im guessing these people know whats the market value they only recently payed it but they are fishing for profit. Man up name a price. If not EBAY it.

Really after that its caveat emptor , buyer beware.

Keep up the great work Andrew.
Mitchell




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posted on December 1st, 2013 at 01:13 PM



I actually only looked because I know what Waltermitty's avatar looks like and he was the last to post........

*sigh* :crazy:

But since I'm here anyway.
People advertise here to sell stuff. A link to Gumtree/Ebay etc, is just an ad still. If you buy stuff anywhere else in the world it is up to you to ensure parts are good, sellers are reputable, etc. It's that whole individual personal responsibility thing going on that the world has seen fit to ignore.

If you're a dealer, then the rates you SHOULD pay I rekn are cheap as crap considering a captive interested audience of thousands.

If you have an issue with a member here though, you can report it to the "Mods" if you like. If they get a few reports, they may start asking questions, but they sure as hell shouldn't have to guarantee every item you wish to buy.
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posted on December 1st, 2013 at 06:39 PM



I agree with what has been said before ^^^^except,..

I think the terms 'make an offer' or 'best offer' or 'free' is perfectly legit for parts or cars for sale.
Something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay.
If you are are a serious buyer for the item advertised then you will contact the advertiser.


My 2c worth.
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posted on December 1st, 2013 at 09:35 PM



EOI
whats with that??
I agree above ^ man up or go away
thanks andrew and crew
cheers pauly




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 07:11 AM



Ok. Some of my thoughts

Post flooding.
If you put all the things in one add people wont find it if they do a search.
Personally I would prefer individual adds unless someone has a "garage sale"
eBay is a pain where there is "buy it now" individual sales on 10mm washers that are just a waste of space.

Don't know what the answer is except that it doesn't worry me if some one is selling carbs, panels and wheels in 3 different adds

EOI, offers and I'm special
There have been several car sales where people say "if you want to know - ring" or "I'm not putting personal information up"
No. Put your details and price up.

I think I would prefer to see a separate section for all the link adds. If you allow a link to eBay what is the difference to having an auction in the for sale section.

No comments
The Samba, Carsales, Gumtree are all just single posts.
Stops all the comments, bumps, and arguments.
Definitely a preference for me

Anyway - I will have more thoughts.
Will post again later




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:10 AM



For sale ads should be a single post with a price and a contact number. Then locked.
No more, great price, this will not last long, wish i could afford it.

If some one is interested enough they will call to ask questions.

Its really bad when you see something for sale then a post saying I will buy that then another saying I am next if the sale falls through?? If you are interested just phone them?

Must have a price, if you are selling, you know how much you want!
None of this EOI , if you want an auction put it on one.

Agree with a separate section for ebay links
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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:38 AM



I can hardly argue with any of the points above though I have often wondered why there's not a standard form available that could be filled in with required info and room for a pic and "required fields" highlighted, but then I am ignorant of how difficult that would be to implement, I think contact phone number and at least area code for location should be mandatory. Maybe a section where disputes could be handled behind closed doors, a buyer believes he / she has got something that was misrepresented so could send a complaint and the seller could respond, too many legit complaints and the seller could be blocked, but that's already starting to sound too hard so maybe not. :crazy: I don't see a problem with links to other sale sites, that's sort of what the "vagrant" section works as, so even if that was outlawed in the for sale section it would be still available for those who wanted it.
Thanks to all the volunteers running this forum, your vigilance is what keeps it a great forum, unlike some others that get hardly any traffic.




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:59 AM



I agree with all that has been said.

A few additions though. Not sure about the rules in other states but in Qld it is illegal ($500 on the spot fine) to advertise a registered car for sale unluss the car has a CURRENT safety certificate (RWC). So you can't say "currently registered sell unregistered" in Qld. Transport inspectors do troll the car sales sites, ebay etc, and I personally know at least half a dozen people who have been fined, there are no warnings.

The system sucks but we should be encouraging people to do the right thing, not empowering them to break the law.

I also think at a minimum, cars for sale should have to show the VIN in the ad. And name a price. Definitely. Even if it is a ridiculous price, people will still contact sellers if keen, this whole "make me an offer" is rubbish, and when you make an offer they consider too low, you get abused. Wouldn't happen if you named your asking price.
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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 11:22 AM



I like the idea of filling in a form to place an ad, similar to theSamba. It also stops the comments etc on an ad. It forces an interested person to contact the seller.



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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 01:43 PM



Plus the option to delete the ad when it has sold. At present, unless theres something I've missed, you can delete your own posts only, so something sells and you have all these random posts with nothing actually for sale that stay there indefinitely.

Allow the OP to mark as sold and delete the ad.
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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 07:38 PM



^ I don't agree with 'delete the ad' business as stated above
sold in the headline sure will save some time for whom that want to 'only' purchase
it is a good n realistic research tool for people to look at what is actually getting sold and the round about price in the real VW world
unlike some red (dead) book or kkult price guide that is totally out of touch with planet earth, eg like a 54 T1 or T2 is worth next to nothing in some guides.. HELLO! wtf?
Agreed the form guide template is a good idea :) :tu:




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:16 PM



I don't mind what is listed,or how its listed, I am intelligent enough to decipher the "for sale" posts
if I want it I will enquire
I think rules are only important so the possum creek pinheads with relatively low IQs understand whats happening




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:19 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by farkengruven
I like the idea of filling in a form to place an ad, similar to theSamba. It also stops the comments etc on an ad. It forces an interested person to contact the seller.


X2 :tu:




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posted on December 2nd, 2013 at 08:33 PM



I fail to see the reason for any of the rules?
If you are interested in something man up and contact the seller, chances are if you don't and it is any good you will miss out anyway.
And who cares if the ad is a EOI? if you want it make an offer, if you don't think it is worth more....once again man up and tell them.




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posted on December 3rd, 2013 at 05:19 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by silverI think rules are only important so the possum creek pinheads with relatively low IQs understand whats happening


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posted on December 3rd, 2013 at 07:27 PM



Everyone must be aware of the laws and rules governing the sale of cars as mandated by the laws of the government - yeah I agree f the government as they only look after themselves - these rules are in place to protect the buyer from shonky sellers.

If registered why try to hide behind ebay - they don't cover vehicles anymore so you get off free if a seller as it's caveat emptor.

Strange Bob you mention EOI - it is an intention to sell, I raised this a short while back as Mods here interpret rules indifferently (not consistent with what must be included) and depending on any association with the seller (aka bias) even though I qualified my thread that I had been asked to abide by the rules when I have posted cars for sale forgot my location = 1 thing left out but asked to fix & complied so why don't others - both VFS and my thread were deleted and I can guess who by as RULES WERE NOT ABIDED BY. Oh shit I'll take the soft out and remove threads - fair call seller couldn't handle EOI and questions being asked and Mod telling everyone the thread was ok even though it DID not conform to the rules as it was an EOI - intention to SELL.

Rules are there to protect buyers not sellers - Aussie Law - as so many scam artists out there thinking there car is better than sex but it falls apart not long after the new owner takes possession. Forums and other social media sites can be a bitch as a get even is sweet revenge.

As to should the rules be changed I believe the laws adhering to PUBLISHED vehicles for sale on forums MUST abide by the rules set in law in this country and states that is why SPECIFIC information is required on carsales and gumtree as for auction sites NFI so the "Host of the sale" is not open to legal action - keep it clean and simple and avoid this forum being dragged down as it is the owner and administrators and Moderators of this forum who can be taken to court aka sued. I also applaud the fact that AVD allows some banter re cars for sale - they really do not constrict the thread but BUMPS after a day/week whatever should be limited to ONLY can be done when the thread falls to the 2nd page of threads - seen it as members think their car thread deserves top of page status.

Once a vehicle is sold the thread should be removed/deleted/archived as it will free up space AND if by chance the buyer seeks recompense because of false facts they no doubt have a copy of the information provided IF Archived on this forum then it will be easier for Andrew to provide evidence of what was posted (backups up non doubt done of ALL posts/threads/sections).

Got nothing to hide put it all out there unless you're scared or just plain slack or need to offload a heap of shit and want to hide things.

As for ebay links they should NOT be posted in the Car For Sale - put it somewhere else in the sell section as no doubt you are too lazy to post here and only want attention drawn to where you feel you will get a quick sale and possibly avoid upsetting a fellow member if they buy - you may also make them very happy BUT ??????




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posted on December 8th, 2013 at 11:57 AM



Good Points Bert most of which i support.
I saw posted in and agree with your assessment of that EOI thread you mentioned.

Only thing I wouldnt agree with is deleting completed sales treads archive them but dont delete them
Past sales are a good form of research for people and might even help someone who wants to EOI work out an actual price instead. Mitchell




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posted on December 8th, 2013 at 12:24 PM



As above I posted on that same post and agree whatever the rules are we must ALL abide by them.
They must be clear and not able to be interpreted differently?
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posted on December 11th, 2013 at 03:59 PM



Thanks for the discussion. Color me surprised so many of you seem to like the current buying and selling rules!

I think the following three polls take into account the differences in opinion without overlapping in coverage. Can you please look at them. I want to create the polls this weekend, so please discuss before I put them up.

Poll #1 - Offsite ads

I have no view on these, and if this allows us to relax the rules (see #2) because the necessities are dealt with by allowing offsite linking, so be it.

a) Allow ads that link to offsite auctions or Gumtree in Buying and Selling Cars / Parts
b) Create a new forum for ads on auction sites or Gumtree in the Buying area
c) No change is necessary

Poll #2 - How hard do we enforce these rules?

a) Relax the rules a lot - nothing is disallowed, including expressions of interest, mods will not hassle you or delete threads
b) Relax the rules a bit - EOI is disallowed, but don't be so hard and fast in enforcing breaches, mods can just ask to have the ad cleaned up
c) No change to the current rules, EOI is disallowed, and you have to fill in your name, suburb, price, etc.

Poll #3 - Improving search quality; cleaning up after something is sold

a) Allow posters to delete their thread
b) Allow posters to change their subject prefix to [SOLD], but don't delete the thread
c) No change is necessary

Please discuss these options. Have I missed any of the discussion points? I have missed the mark in my options? We can have up to 6 or so options, but that does split the vote so it would be likely no clear winner would appear.

thanks
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posted on December 11th, 2013 at 04:51 PM



Hi Andrew,
Thanks for opening this up for everybody to have their say on it.

Personally I think that poll 1 should be "A" as it keeps all the for sale ads together. Poll 2 should also be "A" but people should be aware that they will end up being lowballed so if you don't want that, put a price up. Poll 3 I think should be "B" as that will save people havin g to go in to posts that are no longer relevant unless they are researching the market.

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posted on December 16th, 2013 at 07:50 PM



Yeah Mitch, agree with what you posted - always a good point of reference but all some members do (no doubt to avoid further contact) is go and delete the contents of the thread so it is essentially blank.

Andrew, you've done a great job with this forum and rules aligning to cars for sale so my take is:

#1 - option a - but I feel as the seller is getting a free advertisement they should still post some basic info and pics and price - as they have to do similar on gumtree, carsales, ebay = put your advertisement together on your device (PC/Laptop/iPad/Surface etc) then post the full advertisement on all site. I have been through this on a few occasions with putting cars for ssale on AVD, KombiClub, Carsales and Gumtree - all places had the same info price etc.
Seems a lot of sellers want a buyer to do all the work but get pissed with basic question re basic info that should be posted on any site.

#2 - EOI - is still asking someone to buy your car but contact me for any info you want about it = seller lazy and no fair dinkum




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posted on December 16th, 2013 at 08:05 PM



Yeah Mitch, agree with what you posted - always a good point of reference but all some members do (no doubt to avoid further contact) is go and delete the contents of the thread so it is essentially blank.

Andrew, you've done a great job with this forum and rules aligning to cars for sale so my take is:

#1 - option a - but I feel as the seller is getting a free advertisement they should still post some basic info and pics and price - as they have to do similar on gumtree, carsales, ebay = put your advertisement together on your device (PC/Laptop/iPad/Surface etc) then post the full advertisement on all site. I have been through this on a few occasions with putting cars for sale on AVD, KombiClub, Carsales and Gumtree - all places had the same info price etc.
Seems a lot of sellers want a buyer to do all the work but get pissed with basic question re basic info that should be posted on any site.

#2 - EOI - is still asking someone to buy your car but contact me for any info you want about it if you want to buy = seller lazy and not fair dinkum = they still have to post limited info to put it up on any other car sale web site, auction or forum.
Moderators should govern the thread and seek abidance of the rules to appease all and facilitate a sale. Some sellers either unaware of the rules OR to full of their own cool with their car - why even post if you're not really intersted in abiding by the rules.

#3 - b as think I've covered things above.

I would also expect that with somewhat limited replies based on actual numbers that certain cliques/groups/factions of members will want their current views adopted which is in their best interest BUT NOT in the interest of the greater membership or wellbeing of AVD. Simply looked at if ti ain't broken then why try to fix it - fiddling could well and truely "F" it.

Think I've said enough yet again.




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posted on December 17th, 2013 at 05:15 PM



I think it's about time AVD moved with the times and allows ads that link to offsite auctions or Gumtree in Buying and Selling Cars / Parts and do so by creating a new forum area for ads on auction sites or Gumtree in the Buying area. Most forums are moving this way as these are the times we live in.

Very rarely now do people get the paper first thing in the morning to check the classifieds or auto trader, modern technology and computer savvy generations are using gumtree, eBay and the likes and we should incorporate that change.

It's been 8 years since the last rule change, AVD needs to evolve.




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posted on December 17th, 2013 at 07:53 PM



Ash, have seen links provided before in the cars for sale section - by all means allow a link to be posted but if the seller has gone to any effort to put facts up on gumtree, egay, carsales why can't they copy it and post it on AVD or any other forum if they are a member? GMFW they can't do highlight, Control C, then Control V = they are making the seller run to their preferred internet site = ticks some buyers off but then some like the challenge.

Create another Forum Section then it means it is another section to monitor by the moderators BUT Andrew has been very astute and open with the way he has setup this forum and Cars, swap/sell/buy. Possibly the easier way to it would be to just modify the current way a thread in this section is started so either direct sale or auction/alternate site to AVD - add the disclaimer that AVD is not responsible for accuracy of information and is merely allowing the url link to be shown in order that a wider community are aware of the vehicle being put up for sale.

If the newer generation relies on gumtree, egay, carsales and check them first then why would a seller of same generation and tech savvy want to post on here if they know likes like them will go to other sites first?




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posted on December 17th, 2013 at 08:12 PM



Care to fill us in on what GMFW is supposed to stand for?

Think you are reading too much into it Fossil. It's not always the seller of the actual item that posts the link to an auction or alternative site, so why would they take the time to copy the text as if they are placing the ad, they are merely alerting people to a sale on an alternative site. I don't think people have a issue with having the take a second of their life to click on the link to see what it's about.

Andrew doesn't have an issue in making a separate section much like DSK and Melburg Luft have done, it's a far better segregation of the private ad and public links.




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posted on December 18th, 2013 at 09:04 PM



Mrs KombiBob,

Well acronym some of us old farts know don't hit the younger generations so for everyone G (Got) M (Me) F (Flying Duck / pharked) W (Why).

Melburg Luft - well you can't join them unless you have something positive to contribute WTF (oh that is why the F in case you can't work it out) so up themselves you have to be referred by a member of what ever worth so such a closed shop it really is embarrassing to VW lovers. An extremely poor example to post.

Please if you are not aware of why AVD was setup and who set the ideas in motion (to my knowledge 2 fine elder statesmen of VW finesse and acumen in QLD - if I am wrong then will retract & doubt either of these gentlemen would want the acknowledgement) then maybe you should try and find out. Times change but the basic principles do not have to.

Don't have an issue with non sellers finding a vehicle & posting links to auction sites, bumtree, fartsales BUT as you state ML, well they can't view it much like AVD DSK, KC unless you are a registered member and pics restricted until you registered and are signed in.

Are things broken? and if not why try to fix them? As long as Administrators & Moderators ARE consistent with their rulings and NOT making allowances for relatives, friends, mates etc to show they throw their weight about here while others get told to abide to the rules as you haven't posted as required = everyone treated equally and if an Administrator or Moderator fail in doing this then they admit they can't adjudicate impartially and accordingly resign. Removal of threads questioning equality in fair adjudication of issues should be noted and handled NOT the thread removed.

Overall and with the number of replies to this thread Is there any need for change




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posted on December 18th, 2013 at 09:20 PM



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posted on December 19th, 2013 at 08:40 AM



Things are broken and need fixing, hence why this discussion was raised. There's a lot of behind the scenes discussion and issues you guys aren't aware of.

Fossil ML, drop the bitterness. Don't' rubbish Melburg Luft, you don't don't hear me banging on about your beloved Kombi Club which i hear from its members unfortunately isn't doing so well these days. It's great to have these forums to keep the VW community alive. I forgot to add Volkaholics, who are also doing a great job!

I'm am well aware of how AVD was setup and unfortunately your facts arent exactly right as i am good friends with the person who did so, and might i add, this particular person no longer has or wants any dealings with the forum he created which is sad.

This discussion isn't about changing the forum on it's head, but about adding things to improve it and move with the times. The reason not many people have replied is that AVD itself is slowly dropping in posts compared to how it was a few years ago when it was going stong. We want to do everything in our power to keep Australia's best VW Forum going strong for many years, and many generations to come.




1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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