Posts: 395
Threads: 58
Registered: July 5th, 2012
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
posted on February 18th, 2014 at 12:14 PM
Handling & Stopping Help
I did post a thread about brakes in the Tech thread, but thought it may be better suited here, I can also elaborate further on handling mods
aswell.
Just wondering if I can get some help with regards to where I should spend money on handling and brake upgrade.
I'll quickly give brief rundown of what I have & what I would like to achieve.
Currently:
it's a '64 bug, 4" narrowed airkewld beam. 2.5" drop spindles. 1500SP engine, (from what I was told) a later model swing axle box (I know my car
is 12v if that helps?).
Along with the drop spindles, it's dropped two outer splines in the rear. My ride height is about 8-10cm (unloaded). Lowest point is the jacking
points under the side steps, I'm about 6cm clear here.
Goal:
Retain height & narrowed beam, but handle awesome (read as best as can with limitations provided by height/narrowed stance).
Basically, this car is my daily, but I really hate owning cars that are only used as daily drivers, I like to be able to incorporate my hobbies into
my cars. What I want to achieve is something that, while may not have the best ride quality, will handle awesomely at track days, sprints or straight
line speed. I won’t be upgrading the engine for some time but when I do, I will be wanting to achieve 100+bhp minimum, max would probably be around
150bhp.
Budget for brakes & handling mods is $2000-$3000, I believe this should be achievable based on prices I have seen so far.
Queries:
- Empi disc brakes look ok base on price, I can do all four corners for under $1000. These kits are HEAVY though compared to being able to do all four
corners in Jamar or tatum for between $1500 & $2000. Benefits being 4spot front as opposed to 2 spot ghia callipers, and approximately 2-4 Kg
weight saving on each corner (given that jamar & Tatum are cnc alloy). Jamar/Tatum are also cross drilled/slotted. Cons with the Jamar & Tatum
kits I have seen so far is that they don’t accommodate std dust caps or a Speedo cable (Trade off may be switching to a digital bike Speedo or
something until I can afford a gps Speedo). Stud pattern MUST BE 5/205.
- Are coil over shocks worth utilizing? I've seen the dodgy looking black/silver ones you can get. I'm thinking proper adjustable coilovers (I used
to have a hook up to get custom ones made, hence why I'm contemplating the idea).
- Are camber compensators worth the $90? Given the bug is slammed, I have about 5-10 degrees of camber in the ass end.
- Can you get 4" narrowed & lowered sway bars? If no can they be made easily? Can you get rear sway bars that will accommodate being lowered?
- I'm looking at different torque bars at the moment. I'm not sure, given that this isn’t a full race application, how far I should go with this. I
can get a 3 bar, bolt on kit from CB for $250, or I can stay local & look at Craig Torrens kit for $600 (alot more work involved to fit,
engine/box out to achieve best result).
- I have no idea what torsions to replace the old rear ones with, or what spring plates to use to replace my ghetto notched std's.
Thank you for taking the time to read through this, I know its long so I do appreciate you taking the time.
One last thing I will mention is, I do realise this starting point (slammed and narrowed) goes against ALOT of peoples preferences
for a build, so I ask that you look past any prejudices you may have with certain aspects of this build and help me achieve the best I can with the
constraints I have put on the build.
Thank you,
Johnny/All Bones.
Allbones
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 395
Threads: 58
Registered: July 5th, 2012
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
posted on February 18th, 2014 at 01:06 PM
ALSO!
If you have any of the above items, or other Items that will help me achieve my goals, let me know! I may be interested in purchasing items to keep
shipping & costs down!
cnfabo
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1353
Threads: 140
Registered: April 15th, 2008
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
posted on February 18th, 2014 at 11:30 PM
Hey johnny....
Honestly,slammed,narrowed, and awesome handling should not be in the same sentence....if you want to raise it some and get around 2 deg neg camber on
the rear that would be better.
For the rear; add.one of Greg mackie's camber compensated mods "search the forum" also some bilstein,koni shocks etc..
Front;if you are running wide weird offset rims and that's why you have a 4" beam then so be it.but i f your running that tucked look skinny wheels
then say good buy to handling....like this bye byeeeeee!!!!!!
Make sure your king & link pins are in good nick....
Sway bar yes..not sure on how narrowed you can get them though...But I think they are around 19mm
As for brakes,stock discs all round,std late beetle or t3 calipers front..I think cb does a OK rear kit.fak empi crap off!! In regard to 4 pots etc no
need for big fancy shit on a light under powered beetle...
I think that jamar stuff is for light buggy's and drag cars "???"
Thyres,hhmm...sticky ones.....not sure how many track days/daily driving you are going to do so this will depend....
But in all honestly,slammed cool looking and awesome handling you will have to decide,you will get it handling fun but. if you think you will get into
racing more often/serious then get a IRS ball joint or super bug and start here..you will save money,do it once cry once.....
Hope this helps
Fabo
Allbones
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 395
Threads: 58
Registered: July 5th, 2012
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
posted on February 19th, 2014 at 01:09 AM
Hey cnfabo, no drama man, look is paramount, but with that said I am willing to put the effort in to achieve the best of both worlds.
What about a frame lift in the ass end, would this get me closer to my goal? Allows me to remain slammed and fixes camber issues. TBH the idea of
having to go through the process of removing the body is what has put me off this. is it a big job to remove the body?
The idea was always to keep a set of wheels aside that had fronts with big offsets, for the 2-3 or so times a year I do have a crack, it should
destroy the wheel bearing having the extra pinch on them. At the very least a couple of wheel spacers or something.
I'm not looking to be competitive in the slightest, I just want to have a car that will look how i want, and if i chose to go somewhere safe and go
around corners fast, so be it.
I'm also taking the buy it/build it once approch, so while the car may only have a tired 1500sp at the moment, one day (Read 12 - 24 months at best
hope) it will be signifigantly more powerful, and I'd rather not double handle things like brakes etc.
MattY-64
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 189
Threads: 49
Registered: October 4th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
posted on February 19th, 2014 at 09:32 AM
Hi Allbones,
Your best bet is to get a copy of "How to Modify Volkswagen Beetle Suspension, Brakes and Chassis for High Performance" It outlines everything you
will need to know and is a great reference book for later when you are working out the kinks.
Sadly you and I have the wrong models for fantastic handling, i.e. K&L front end (limited camber) and swing axel rear (the dreaded tuck). That
said you can still improve on factory performance.
I run a camber compensator and if I remember right 2 notches on the rear (not massive camber). The front beam is standard but has adjusters installed.
I have tried to pack out the K&L to give me enough camper without binding or having to alter any parts, there is not much there. Also have the
standard sway bar on the front. I have new shock absorbers all round. I have sherman disc brakes front and rear with a dual circuit master cylinder.
My discs are not dimpled, drilled or cut and the calipers are single pot. From memory they are an earlier design, I got them second hand with hardly
any miles on them.
I run widened 14" rims with 205 tyres on the rear and 13" rims with 185 tyres on the front. Because of the stock beam and the sherman disc brakes on
the front, the wheel track is quite wide and only just fits up under the guards, with some scrapping every now and then. The rear axels are long so
with the sherman discs the rear wheels sit out a little too. It gives for a much wider wheel track than stock.
The setup runs ok, can be a little bumpy on the street, but thats mainly due to the limited travel in the suspension. I am only running a 1600DP with
50HP at the wheels but am looking at going a 1776 with possible turbo setup.
The next things that I am looking at are front beam brace and rear torque bar. These two items should hopefully stiffen up the entire suspension even
more.
When you look at moving up in the power you may end up going for a deep sump. This will reduce the room that you have between the bottom of the engine
and the pavement, and as such I expect that you are going to have to raise the rear anyway. You also need to remember that the more camber you have on
the rear wheels the less oil you are going to get to your bearings, which is not a great option for hard driving.
There are a couple of different options for the rear to help stop the rear wheel tuck (which is definately a problem with swing axel and high speed
cornering). You can go with a Z-bar, a camber compensator, limiting straps or change to IRS. As a side note there is the option of getting notched
spring plates which lower the rear but keep the travel of the suspsension.
Having drop spindles in the front is probably a better alternative to the adjusters as you keep the suspension travel. Having a narrowed beam does
reduce the wheel track which is probably going to keep the front end a little lively? If you change the front beam and run the drop spindles you need
to remember that the drop spindles will widen the track and when you add after market disc brakes (more track) you need to make sure that everything
is going to fit under the guards when the wheels are bolted on.
Hope some of this helps.
Matt.
BiX
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2499
Threads: 154
Registered: September 2nd, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
posted on February 19th, 2014 at 11:47 AM
With the current setup you have, you can improve it, but it will never handle at its best. even a lowered stock setup may handle better....
That being said you can take any car on a track day, just know the cars limits and don't exceed them.
In the end, with what you want to achieve you will need to compromise... where in that spectrum is up to you.
You don't buy a 4wd and then wonder why it doesn't handle like a mx5.... and you don't try and take a mx5 to the cape and back.... sure you could
try......
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
mactaylor
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1005
Threads: 54
Registered: August 14th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Location: Albury
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: even my dog is german
posted on February 19th, 2014 at 06:35 PM
single best improvement is rubber! good ones will do wonders. then good shocks, then check how they wear. this will tell you how you drive and where
it needs improvement. assuming you have all good bushes and rod ends. buy yourself a digital pyrometer to check tire temps, go for a spirited drive,
then check the outer edge, middle, inner edge. this will show where you should set the camber and toe. you want roughly the same temps across the
tire. there are plenty of other mods to do but you need to set a baseline otherwise its just wasted money. remember speed costs money! How fast do you
want to go?
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
Allbones
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 395
Threads: 58
Registered: July 5th, 2012
Member Is Offline
Location: Ipswich QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Black
posted on February 20th, 2014 at 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally
posted by mactaylor
single best improvement is rubber! good ones will do wonders. then good shocks, then check how they wear. this will tell you how you drive and where
it needs improvement. assuming you have all good bushes and rod ends. buy yourself a digital pyrometer to check tire temps, go for a spirited drive,
then check the outer edge, middle, inner edge. this will show where you should set the camber and toe. you want roughly the same temps across the
tire. there are plenty of other mods to do but you need to set a baseline otherwise its just wasted money. remember speed costs money! How fast do you
want to go?
Awesome advice here man, cheers.
Speed isnt the issue yet, I just wanna stick like shit to a blanket, haha. In all seriousness though, if I can crack 100mph and not take off or be
doing it on my roof, I'll be happy. but thats substantially later down the track.
posted on February 18th, 2014 at 12:14 PM
