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 Aussie
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| posted on April 4th, 2014 at 01:10 PM |
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Suspension Limit Straps
Big motors, swing axle suspension and positive camber under braking seem to be well documented on the net with various limit straps, flop stops and
other mods used by drag racers.
My question is whether all this is required on a street focussed car which may occasionally go down the strip? Is it really just an issue at top end
speeds? What setups do people run over here???
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bajachris88
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| posted on April 4th, 2014 at 06:15 PM |
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Strip as in quarter mile? or you doing track work?
If track / going hardcore on a corner, you'd wanna limit that rear for wheel tuck!
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vwo60
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| posted on April 4th, 2014 at 07:03 PM |
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I have limited the downward wheel travel by welding in a 4MM piece of steel under the rebound stop on the rear of my beetle, I have shortened the type
three bump stops so it has a bit more upward wheel travel without bottoming the shocks, it works well with the only issue being spinning the inside
wheel during hard cornering under power.
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Aussie
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 12:30 AM |
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Would a camber compensater (see link below) help with the positive camber effect? Maybe one of these with limit straps also? Not looking to circuit
race this thing - just want to be confident/comfortable when driving and be able to give it some every now and then 
camber compensater
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 matberry
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 12:52 AM |
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I too have limit blocks welded to my suspension stops in the rear of my swing axle, also the cut down bump stops as it's lowered and I want maximum
suspension travel and I'm running a lowered ride height as VW060 has suggested above.
The camber compensator is an interesting device, but do your homework. There are two versions available. They were initially designed by Porsche for
the swing axle 356 to reduce the possibility of rear wheel tuck.
The 2 types are easily recognised, one is as you've pictured with a bend in the bar and pads that push on the axles, this is the copy-cat bar. The
other is the original design which has a straighter leaf spring and loops that go over the axle tubes is the one to get. The original manufacturer of
the aftermarket camber compensator was Sway-A-Way and is now also available from CB Performance. These are the type to get, NOT the one pictured in
your link which I believe to be an EMPI product that does not work correctly.
If fitting a camber compensator you should also increas the front sway-bay diameter to balance the suspension front to rear.
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vwo60
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 07:23 AM |
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The one in your link is the swayaway style, i have two of these fitted to my cars, one major advantage of this style, is they act as a negitive
spring, it actually helps reduce positive camber while making the ride better, the spring is actually preloading the bottom of the axel tube and this
softens the inital suspenion movement.
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Aussie
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 09:46 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
I too have limit blocks welded to my suspension stops in the rear of my swing axle, also the cut down bump stops as it's lowered and I want maximum
suspension travel and I'm running a lowered ride height as VW060 has suggested above.
The camber compensator is an interesting device, but do your homework. There are two versions available. They were initially designed by Porsche for
the swing axle 356 to reduce the possibility of rear wheel tuck.
The 2 types are easily recognised, one is as you've pictured with a bend in the bar and pads that push on the axles, this is the copy-cat bar. The
other is the original design which has a straighter leaf spring and loops that go over the axle tubes is the one to get. The original manufacturer of
the aftermarket camber compensator was Sway-A-Way and is now also available from CB Performance. These are the type to get, NOT the one pictured in
your link which I believe to be an EMPI product that does not work correctly.
If fitting a camber compensator you should also increas the front sway-bay diameter to balance the suspension front to rear.
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Thanks Matt. Approx how thick are the blocks you have attached to your stops? I measured mine up yesterday and estimate I would need approx 13-15mm to
stop any positive camber. This would be OK for a drag car but am guessing I should go around 8-9mm to allow some extra movement on a street driven
car. This would be about what I would get with a 14" limit strap. I believe that you can twist them to shorten them to allow for stretch and/or a go
on the strip.
I actually had a camber compensater on my last bug which was the loop over axle type but for whatever reason did not get on with it very much. No
matter how tight I made the strap it always seemed to be banging and clanking even under normal driving. Maybe it was not set up properly. This was
the reason for looking at the other type which may help more with the positive camber effect.
Take you point on the matching front sway bar... something else for me to think about..... Can you get these for a 3" narrow beam?
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Aussie
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 09:57 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
The one in your link is the swayaway style, i have two of these fitted to my cars, one major advantage of this style, is they act as a negitive
spring, it actually helps reduce positive camber while making the ride better, the spring is actually preloading the bottom of the axel tube and this
softens the inital suspenion movement.
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Is you rear suspension lowered at all on the back?
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matberry
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 11:41 AM |
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I have similar to Shayne with only about a 4mm block limiting the down travel. IMO you don't need to limit positive camber just the amount. You need
to have some or the ride and performance will suffer, esp during cornering it will increase the tendancy of inside wheel lifting under power.
Seems I should have done my homework too, as Shayne is correct in saying the Sway-A-Way is the same as the new EMPI using the bent spring and the
rubbing pads. I was going by memory and I definately had the og style many years ago but it must have been a different brand or they changed the
design.
I still believe that the bent style is not the one to go for. I believe they will increase the tendancy to lift the inside rear wheel during cornering
and hard acceleration, something to well avoid if your chasing handling and speed. The camber compensator is designed to increase the spring rate
overall, or in other words to reduce the amount of torsion bar required to suspend the car. Softer torsions effectively reduces wheel lifting under
power. There are many in depth articles explaning this on the net so I won't repeat it here.
Personally I drive my cars hard and I like them to work to thier best potential, but minimum weight is a primary objective, so depending on ride
height you may find the handling will surprise you once setup with good tyres, shocks and lowered ride height. So get the car on the road and then
start the suspension tuning once the major components are together and working to thier best potential.
I don't know of any swaybars for a 3" narrowed beam but a spring maker could no doubt copy one to your specs. I shorten stock bars with a sleeve and
weler and have no issues with them to date.
As for the noises you experienced, I can't answer that one, maybe the trans wasn't supported effectively or the straps needed to be shorter or I
have seen some compensators in the past hitting on the shocks which definately could be noisey.
Hopefully Greg Mackie can chime in as he would be the most experienced swinger in the country......and he's driven a few early VW and Porsches too
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Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vwo60
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 01:06 PM |
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I had a early empi style camber compensator with the straps over the axel, made my car ride like a dray, i like the swayaway compensator, seams to
work well for me.
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mactaylor
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 03:11 PM |
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have a look on this site for happydaze camber bar, if he cant point you in the right direction you may need a mental health check aswell!
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 05:34 PM |
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Don't need them.
rose has did the 1/4 mile @ 175Ks in here lowered 54 oval. with stock shocks etc.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on April 6th, 2014 at 05:52 PM |
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After driving my '56 Cabriolet to Bill Moore's funeral and back last Monday, Ian, I tend to agree with you.
Apart from Koni shocks front & rear, 1 deg. neg. rear camber, and 5.5" rims [with old GT radials].....the supension is ABSOLUTELY STOCK ! - not
even a front sway bar.
While driving through the Kangaroo Valley, with its windy road, I remembered what fun it is to drive an early car, with stock suspension.....The 356
engine and brakes helped a bit, too.
If you want to do circuit racing, it's adifferent story. I can help there if that's the case.
Hey, Matt Berry what's this "experienced swinger" business....I've never been passenger on a racing motorcycle outfit in my life !
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Aussie
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| posted on April 7th, 2014 at 01:47 PM |
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Thanks everyone for the replies - some really good info there.
For the time being I am going to install the limit straps only. Next step will to be install the bigger (and heavier) engine and start getting a feel
for things. Upgrades from that point will be shocks first and then finally camber compensater (rear) / sway bar (front) if there are still any
handling concerns. I am hoping that I will only need to go to the shock upgrade to get things feeling stable enough.
Anyway, thats the plan - will see how it works out 
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Aussie
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| posted on April 7th, 2014 at 01:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
Don't need them.
rose has did the 1/4 mile @ 175Ks in here lowered 54 oval. with stock shocks etc.
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Thats pretty fast - is that in the 12's? Do you run any limit straps or other limiting devices?
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 7th, 2014 at 03:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ian.mezz
Don't need them.
rose has did the 1/4 mile @ 175Ks in here lowered 54 oval. with stock shocks etc.
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Thats pretty fast - is that in the 12's? Do you run any limit straps or other limiting devices?
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nope nothing on the suspension, just a berg centre gear box mount and a bit of square tube under motor to prevent motor breaking mounts on launch.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=583195
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veedubberpaul58
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| posted on April 8th, 2014 at 05:21 AM |
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Ive only quickly skimmed this post so not sure if they are your answer but if you are chasing limit straps I have a good range hanging up in the
workshop
send me an email if you need some and we can see if i have a size close to what you need
sales @ steelart.com.au
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