| [ Total Views: 1172 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 106119 ] |
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 lunar_c
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 09:05 PM |
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Urgent advice required regarding rust repairs.
Hi guys,
This is my daily driven 1972 super beetle. I just put a new engine in and was doing a rolling restoration of the mechanicals before planning to pull
the body off the pan and do a proper paint job later this year.
While looking at my brakes today I noticed some odd lumps under the stone guard in the wheel wells and to my horror found some pretty horrible cover
ups .. On the passengers front wheel well below the A pillar there's a gaping hole through to the foot well and into the heater channel the previous
own had stuck some tin over and bogged over.
On the drivers side it is similar and has eaten into a bit if the base of the A pillar..
So I kept digging. The trunk floor is gone - a piece of tin has been spot welded in and bogged over.
One rear floor plan needs replacing .. The bonnet is toast, as is the front apron and guards. The seal clip around the bonnet is also gone - can this
be replaced?
Here's some pics ..
The passengers side foot well.
The drivers side .. Rust is into the base of the a pillar.
Front apron .. Like this in both sides.
From the inside..
And the carnage on the other side of the spare wheel well..
I'm wondering whether it's going to be easier to replace the body or start again.. My feeling is that it's not safe to drive like this and the
repairs necessary will be expensive. I'm happy to fix the floor plan and simpler jobs like that but I know my boundaries. I'm pretty ticked off with
the previous owner now. I knew about the body needing work but he swore to me there were no structural problems, just the parts of big I could see in
the panels.
It has good doors and deck lid, rear quarter panels and valance are straight as is the roof. Our estimated budget for painting and panel work was
about 5k not including things like seals etc. I can see this going out of control now.
Can I have your opinions please? Thanks guys..
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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silver
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 09:15 PM |
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Get some Quotes for repair panels, if you have quality repair pieces the work is not too hard, but you have a lot to do
A donor body might be a good idea but chances are it will have some problems too
If the owner gave you a iron clad guarantee that it was sound maybe hit him up for a price reduction or refund
Keeping it real !
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 09:17 PM |
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You keen on giving welding a go?
Sure its effort, but doesn't appear intimidating. Replacement panels are avaiable. A rebody reaks of effort, and it would be hard to find another
rust free superbug that someone is happy to part out.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 09:18 PM |
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The other thing I wanted to ask you guys is if the seat rails look right to you..
The previous owner cut up the seat bases to the old super high backs and welded some late model seats on .. I'm not happy with the job at all and
want to put some standard seats back in and I'm not sure if the floor / rails have been modified as well.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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 helbus
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 11:09 PM |
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Spending about $1000 on a good welder, and if you do these patches yourself, you will save a lot of money, and at the end of it all, you will be able
to keep the welder, or sell it for maybe $800. Keep reading and looking at resto threads on this forum, spend hours looking, reading. Use the search
function. You will get so much information, from the simplest to the most complex jobs. It is all collective information. You can do it.
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 20th, 2014 at 11:53 PM |
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I have my mig welding tickets and can do a lot of basic fabrication .. Have restored Japanese/English unibody cars before and motorcycles so simple
panel work isn't too intimidating but I've never done a beetle and the whole body/pan thing confuses me as to what's considered structural and what
isn't.
Is there a point or particular spots at which a body (or pan) is no longer viable?
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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helbus
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 12:23 AM |
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As long as you dont have to cut the entire outer and inner sill panel of the upper body shell out. Basically the bottom tube between the back and
front of the door opening. Then the shell will not have any structural changes.
The pan usually only needs side floor pans, however it is recommended you screw them on, refit the top shell to ensure fitment, then remove shell,
then weld pans in.
Your shell looks viable if you can do it yourself
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psimitar
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 12:26 AM |
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If you have the welding skills then all these are easily repaired.
Just buy a sheet of 0.9mm galvbond steel to make panels from. You could buy 0.8mm cold rolled but the zinc coating of the galvbond gives added
protection.
So long as heater channel sides and base are solid then a repair to the top is all that's needed cos you could buy the front repair section but the
repro panels from Brazil are made from crap steel and no were near as strong as original German steel. By using Oz steel you keep panel strength.
A-pillar is either repair what's there if viable or import from Hookys panel shop. He makes the best quality A-pillar repairs in the world IMO. 1.2mm
steel and quality/correct stamping. If it don't fit then your body isn't straight. That's how good they are.
Wheel well I'd pie cut, bend and weld for the curve into the well with a 10-12mm lip to plug weld to the inner wing.
The front valance I'd just clean up and maybe use a Spot Blaster before using fe-123 and then painting in epoxy mastic 121 and topcoating. Be
surprised if that ever rusted again after that. 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 10:21 AM |
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Thank you so much for your help guys!
Any more advice?
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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 matberry
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 12:04 PM |
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Those seat rails look stock/unmodified.
My advice, seeing the extent in the lower sections, I'd be doing a lot more investigating before making any decisions. Mainly check the drip rails
above the door opening near the Bpillar and at the C pillar. Grind back to bare metal and check for rust. Badly rusted gutter which supers are
renowned for will render the body unrepairable if quality repairs are your thing.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 12:29 PM |
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Thanks mate I'll be getting onto checking that today. I've ripped the interior out and I'm going over the whole car now.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 04:05 PM |
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Well the further I went today checking the spots Matt suggested the worst it got .. I'm wondering if this shell is worth it now. Please advise..
Passengers a pillar at the base of the windscreen.. Pin holes through to the front..
The full extent of the damage to the base of the passengers a pillar after removing an entire vacuum cleaner bag worth of bog..
Rusted through behind the half moons at the base of the right and left C pillars ..
Some at the base of the a pillar on the drivers side also..
And the top.. No pinholes but very pitted..
And the right strut towers inner skin is gone too..
And the whole front apron is holes and inches of bog.. Top to bottom.. Left and right..
I just put a fresh twin port with twin carbs and a nice exhaust in the car and it has a good gearbox and knackered suspension.. Lots of missing parts
like the dash and heating system .. decent pan that needs one floor plan and that's about it.
I paid $3k for the car licensed and running but tired motor, I went over the pan and saw bog where I expected but I took the owners word that the
spots that were bogged would be repairable (yes I'm an idiot, and a bit green with beetles).
My wife and I are too far in now.. We've both always wanted one, but I think we'd be best off buying another complete car and putting the twin port
in that and stripping this one out for parts.
What should I do guys?
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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Bizarre
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 06:00 PM |
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another place to check is in front of the door on the A pillar
Effectively from the hinge to hinge - the other side to the first pic in the post from the 21/5
That strut tower is a bit of a worry
The rear C pillars are not too bad - seen MUCH worse
Have a look through this post to see what is repairable - pretty sure it is the same model
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=97264
You will need to do heater channels and lower A pillars as a minimum
get rid of the head liner so you can attack from both sides
There is foam rot on the C pillars you need to get rid of the foam
BIG job, but if you have the tools and space - go for it
You will pay BIG money for one that is done properly
Futue te ipsum!!!
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matberry
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 06:34 PM |
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I'd be looking for another body, yes it can be fixed but it's a ton of work and it will always be a heavily repaired shell.
There is more rust to be found, I guarantee it, the gutters will have more, follow the B pillar up and look at both sides of the gutter. A good
indicator is to look at the seam of the drip rail, it is in the water channel side, when the car was new, you would see the edge of the folded gutter
overlapping the roof panel al lthe way along the gutter and down the A pillar where Barry suggested in the above post. For me this area will only ever
be marginally repairable, pretty well what ever you do repair this area, rust will return/continue.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 08:22 PM |
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That sux...pity you are so far away  There is a good body in my shed that
has been soda blasted to bare metal and is in very good condition ..
tssnq.com.au
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 08:28 PM |
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Thanks for the offer. I wonder if it's possible to be further away than far north qld?
I think I will be looking for a better body.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 09:21 PM |
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I think everyone has valid opinions here but I think in my circumstance I need to try and find a better body or this one will take 6 months of body
work.
I'll see what else is around (given they are all 40+ years old) and then weigh up my options from there.
I'd like to find a non runner in its original paint (they pop up from time to time) that's a bit more complete than mine (either a standard or a
super) and then take my motor and box and part out my car to keep some other peoples beetles on the road and re coup a little.
This isn't the end.. It's our dream car.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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Bizarre
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 09:35 PM |
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your box is only good for a Super or a 1976 Standard panned beetle
Futue te ipsum!!!
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 10:33 PM |
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Thanks for the heads up. I figured not much besides the motor would swap out.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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helbus
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| posted on May 21st, 2014 at 10:37 PM |
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I would look for another shell, and I am a restoration panel beater/ body build fabricator. The C pillar half moon area is very common, and almost
unavoidable. The other repair areas you have shown have some discusting previous attempts at repairing rust with no valid work showing.
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 07:52 AM |
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Thanks hellbus. The search for a better car/shell has begun.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 08:36 AM |
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Trouble is that shells are becoming harder to find and hence you'll pay more trying to get a 'good' one then to tackle the repairs.
That shock tower is easily repairable and if you thought buying a new inner wing a good idea then just remember they are made from crap strength
brazilian steel. You'd keep more strength by doing a good job with Oz steel.
Also, remember that ALL 1302 and 1303s came with that foam in the rear pillars and regardless of where they come from there will be some version of
rust in those areas so even if it looks OK from the outside now you may find within 5yrs that the tinworm has worked its way out from the inside. The
1303 was probably the worst designed Beetle ever as compared to a 1950s Beetle with large drain holes in so many moisture points the 1303 had
virtually none and hence why they rust so badly.
Put it this way, if you do the repairs yourself and dig out all the rot then you know you'll be driving a solid vehicle. If worried on panel strength
then just buy a bead roller so you can create lap joints where needed for strength.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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ACE76
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 11:22 AM |
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Was the vehicle sold with a "roadworthy" / certificate, or whatever the system is in WA?
Maybe structural rust can't be detected by such inspections? (but perhaps if so there may be recourse?) -- but the oil leaks and clearly faulty
brakes (blown M/cylinder And handbrake N/W) probably should have been.
PS. Sorry to read about your bad discoveries.
ACE 30 & ACE 40 oil: specially formulated for your Air Cooled Engine...
Delivery free Outer Eastern Melb. & Dandenong Ranges.
from$19 for 2.5L (spot-on for 1 fill, re-use bottle to measure), or $29 for 5L (2 fills)
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 03:26 PM |
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Yeah I don't think there's any recourse in WA. It was hard to detect when I inspected the vehicle - I could see the bog and one "patched" floor
plan. I'm the usual places but it was well hidden in the wells and heater channels with spot welded bits of galv tin and bog and layers of stone
guard.
I feel pretty embarrassed. I think you can't go too far in life being dishonest and shoddy like that, karma will catch up with him.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 07:43 PM |
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Hey Lunar_C,
Check out Just Kampers Australia, they had quite a few panels to replace the rusted out ones in our beetle (though as mentioned, they are foreign
steel). The bloke we got ours from said nothing structural, just a bit of surface rust. So like you we rebuilt the motor but it wasn't until we
decided to re-spray the car that we found the extent of the rust. It was everywhere - the owner previous to him had replaced the floor pans, so that
was about the only panel rust free. We had already invested a bit in the car, so decided to buy a MIG, power tools, compressor etc. and jump right in.
For a beginner, cutting holes in your beetle is a bit worrying but spend the time and panel by panel the car will come back together as good as
new.
As psimitar says, if you take the time to do it yourself, you'll know the state of your beetle. I spent a few weeks visiting wreckers for a donor for
panels. All that I came across had pretty much the same damage...
If you have the time, do it all yourself. You'll learn a lot about fabrication and welding.
http://www.bennvenn.com/Rust.html
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helbus
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 08:06 PM |
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Personally I will never do lap joins. I only ever do butt joins. TIG welded with no filler rod, and the two panels become one. It is easy, it just
take time.
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psimitar
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| posted on May 22nd, 2014 at 08:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by lunar_c
I think you can't go too far in life being dishonest and shoddy like that, karma will catch up with him.
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I do hope so as there are so many dodgy tradies and DIYers out there these days that it disgusts me.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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lunar_c
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| posted on May 23rd, 2014 at 10:28 PM |
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I'll still keep looking for a more complete car, as mine is missing a whole lot of the interior like the dash and a lot of parts of the heater
system. And the seats are from something random and he's done an ordinary job of putting them in.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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