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 landfall
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 03:46 PM |
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Lowered Beetle
OK, thanks to the thread by Joel I managed to identify and purchase a 1976 Std Beetle.
Now this particular car has been dressed up like Herbie.
It has also been lowered using the spindle method, so I gather it is 2 1/" lower?
There is about 1 inch of clearance above the tyres on the front.
The ride is terrible, I have ben in go-karts with better suspension. It feels like there is no suspension movement and it is virtually riding on the
bump stops.
It appears to have plain shockers with no over riding springs.
I would like to raise it 25-40mm, not possible if I return to standard spindles.
I could live with the height, but currently not the ride.
Any suggestions, please.
Ken
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vwo60
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 05:39 PM |
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If you replace the spindles with the standard spindles it will still ride the way it is now, it needs no over ride springs as the torsion bars carry
all the weight, how can you tell it is riding on the bump stops as these are inside the shock absorber with a plastic cover over them, there could be
other issues with the front end like worn trailing arm bushes, seized ball joints or incorrect shocks that do not allow full movement of the
suspension, a vw factory manual is a good investment http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BENTLEY-WORKSHOP-REPAIR-MANUAL-VW-BEETLE-KARMANN-G... ,it will give you all the
information when you need it.
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landfall
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 06:16 PM |
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Thanks vwo60,
I am new to the world of older VW Beetles and therefore appreciative of any help.
AS I said, "it feels that it is virtually riding on the bump stops, I have a feeling that it will be the incorrect shocks. Planning to jack it up
tomorrow and have a decent look.
The other indication that it sitting on the stops is that when pressing downward on the front guards, there is no suspension movement.
I have already ordered the VW workshop manual off EBay as you have suggested.
I definitely know there are other issues, it wanders all over the road at any speed and there is a lot of play in the steering.
Going to be an interesting time coming my way.
Thanks for your reply.
Ken
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vwo60
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 07:00 PM |
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Just a suggestion, not a wise move normally, remove the front shocks and take it fore a short drive around the block, this will give you a indication
if the shocks are the culprit, it probably will be time to overhaul the front end, be aware of after market things like ball joints and steering
boxes, a good second hand German steering box is better that a crap new one, your one might adjust up just fine, will you be doing the work yourself,
German ball joints are available for a bit extra, a four wheel alignment is worth the effort when you have finished what ever work on the suspension
the car requires. all good fun and seeing you are a vw virgin probably a step learning curve, the car is simple and most repairs can be carried out
your self. that what I think this hobby is about.
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landfall
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 08:34 PM |
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Thanks for the tips.
Have been surfing the net for various products.
What's your take on GAZ adjustable front shockers, the type suitable for the lowered suspension of course, vs the KYB brand?
At this point in time, I am seriously considering replacing most or all of the wearing components, such as ball joints, sway bar kit, steering damper
arm, etc.
Totally agree with your sentiments about this "hobby." That is what I purchased this vehicle for.
Ken
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vwo60
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| posted on June 9th, 2014 at 09:11 PM |
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Before you start looking parts you need to deceide what you intend to do with the car, part of your problem with the front could be that the shocks
are to stiff for the car, hence you cannot push the front down and it rides like a dray, if you were to keep the car standard then you would use a low
pressure gas shock or a good quality oil shock, when you want to change the wheels and suspension to improve handling then a high pressure gas shock
could be used but along with this comes a harder ride, a compromise can be reached, I have run a lot of shocks over the years but now all my cars are
fitted with KYB gasajust and they all ride very well, you will hear exactly the opposite from other people on the forum. works for me. rebuild your
suspension and add the other parts one at a time so you can see if there is a improvement that you are looking for, if you keep the dropped spindles
you will need a standard length shock, the dropped spindles are the best way to lower the front, if you lower it by installing adjusters without the
dropped spindles using the standard height spindles the lower you go the worse it rides. that is a characteristic of the suspension.
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 06:51 AM |
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Thanks again for the advice.
Although I am about to measure the shocker length, I would have thought that I would be needing the "lowered shockers" but you have said keep the
standard shockers.
The car will basically only be used for club outings. I should point out that we are both in our seventies, so I am not looking for a hotrod. We were
looking for a standard car, but here in Tasmania any beetle is thin on the ground and those we did look at were shocking. This one was by far and away
the best one we looked at, but has been played with. Wish they had spent as much on the ride and handling as they had on the stereo and amplifiers
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vwo60
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 07:15 AM |
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If the car is fitted with dropped spindles the front will be lower by 2 1/2" with the suspension at it normal position, thus the standard length
shocks, lower the car with weld in adjusters and drop the front the same amount you will probably benefit from shorter shocks, but then you can bottom
out the ball joints and you will have the atrocious ride you do not want. A good book to get your head around the suspension, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/How-to-Modify-Volkswagen-Beetle-Chassis-Suspension... When you jack the car up
check if the car has dropped spindles, on standard spindles the centre line of the stub axel is directly between the ball joints, dropped spindles
are 2 1/2" higher up towards the top ball joint. also look to see if weld in adjusters have been fitted to the beam, they will be welded into the
centre of the upper and lower torsion tube and have a adjusting screw to preload the torsion bars. just need to find out what has been done to the car
and its condition. get a few posts up then you can upload photos.
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 08:41 AM |
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Thanks again. I plan on jacking it up later today.
First thing today is to take it up the road and get quotes to take out the two rear quarter windows and the rear window and fit new rubbers.
Should I move this thread to tech talk?
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 Bizarre
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 08:58 AM |
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G'day
leave your thread here as most people click "Topic Activity" and you get all the posts since the last time you visited
Otherwise maybe start a new thread
Shouldn't cost much to get the windows changed over unless you want new rubbers with the chrome in them
Can be a bugger to fit
Futue te ipsum!!!
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 09:11 AM |
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Yes, that's the ones I would like.
The front windows have been replaced with this type and would like to match them.
Ken
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 12:38 PM |
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OK, a bit more information.
I have stripped the front wheels and measured the distance between the top ball joint and the lower, 150mm. Therefore the centre of the axle should be
75mm? It is offset by 15mm upwards. In other words the distance from the top ball joint to the centre line is 60mm?
Does this mean that it has standard spindles as they certainly not offset 2 1/2".
The beam seems to have an adjustable device in the centre of each beam, but they do not look like they were welded in place. Looks a part of the
beam?
If they are height adjusters, which way do I turn them to vary the height?
The shockers are shot. This I think is the route of my problems. The ball joints, etc look in good nick.
Ken
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vwo60
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 05:42 PM |
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This should help you determine what you have, In the middle of the beam on the standard front end it has two grub screws and a lock nuts, this hold
the torsion bars in place, check out the video to see the adjusters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ciOjDeKZrY
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Deadpan
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 06:15 PM |
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Hope you sort out you Bug Ken if you want more manuals and VW books cheaper than Ebay -example- BENTLEY WORKSHOP REPAIR MANUAL VW BEETLE KARMANN GHIA
-Ebay $74.95 + $6.95 Standard Postage = $81.90 -Nile books $57.49 with FREE shipping! http://www.thenile.com.au/search?s=Volkswagen+&x=33&y=21
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ...  |
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 06:38 PM |
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OK, vwo60 thanks for the diagram.
I do have the standard front beam, grub screws and locking nut.
The bump stops on the shockers are totally destroyed. The shockers are a Brazilian brand "cofap" and the shockers measure 340 depressed with no
bumpstop and 440mm extended.
The same measurements apply with the car sitting on the ground without the shockers and when jacked up the suspension drops to 440mm.
Other than the slight offset on the hubs, I cannot see how it could have been lowered so much?
From a bit of research I find that these measurements are standard size shockers. The shockers for lowered cars seem to be too small.
Ken
Thanks for the tip on the bookshop Deadpan, looks like I will be spending a dollar or two with them.
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vwo60
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 07:46 PM |
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You might find the torsion bars have been cut, did you drive with out the shocks to see if it rides any better, post some photos of the ride height so
we can see it.
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landfall
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| posted on June 10th, 2014 at 08:12 PM |
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OK, will do tomorrow, thanks for your help.
Ken
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landfall
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 03:51 PM |
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OK, managed to take the measurements.
I trust they will make some sense.
The distance between the shocker mounts with the car jacked up (no weight) is 430mm.
With the car on the ground= 310mm
The same distance with the shockers in place = 440mm and 330mm.
The ground clearance from the bottom of the running board on a level surface is 165mm.
The bump stops on the shockers were destroyed. I cut away the bottom part that was damaged and left a small cushion of rubber that was still intact.
This gave me a measured movement of 25mm on the downward stroke of the shocker.
On the road, this did make a difference to the ride, not fantastic, it still bottomed out, but much better.
The stroke of the shockers are 260>440, I think that this is the range of a standard shocker and should be OK.
Will try again to attach photos separately.
Ken
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landfall
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 03:57 PM |
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The other two photos.
Spindle and modified shocker.
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MrSpeedy
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 04:43 PM |
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Take a pic of the centre of your beam, under the nose of the car where the centre grub screws are. Top and bottom tube.
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landfall
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 04:48 PM |
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OK, will do that tomorrow.
Looks very standard to me, no weds etc.
Ken
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vwo60
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 07:41 PM |
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If there are no adjusters then the torsion bars have been cut or they have sagged with use, It indicates to me that it is a lot lower than stock with
the standard car always higher at the front compared to the back, if you are going to change at least the ball joint boots you can remove the
trailing arms and the torsion bars and check it out, there are torsion bars available that are 10% stiffer, it works very well in the front and I have
these in two of my cars, the sway bar bushes are RS, you can get a uprated front bar also, no dropped spindles, do the wheels rub at all, if you fit
them it will increase the track 6MM a side, my be enough to make the tyres rub. it is important to maintain wheel travel if you want the car to
handle, when you lower them without the dropped spindles you will get a crap ride, as you have found out, the design of the suspension requires the
trailing arms to be at least parallel or angled down a few degrees to get the ride. when you go lower the front you loose this and the wheel now has
to move up and forward into the bump rather up and back away from the bump. keep up the good work. Did you check the you tube video I posted showing
the adjusters.
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landfall
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 08:06 PM |
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Yes I did check out the utube. That is why I know that it has not been lowered using that type of adjusters.
The tyres rub on full lock on rare occasions.
Where are the stiffer torsion bars available and does replacing them entail pulling the beam out?
Waiting for the manuals to arrive, but trying to get on with the job.
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vwo60
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 08:27 PM |
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It will entails the removal of the trailing arm, then the torsion bars. I bought my bars from CB performance in the States
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=6297
This way you can check out the condition of the trailing arm bearings
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landfall
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| posted on June 11th, 2014 at 09:03 PM |
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Thanks.
A little work ahead, plus a new exhaust system.
Ken
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landfall
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| posted on June 12th, 2014 at 03:45 PM |
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vwo60,
The mob in the states do not have the HD torsion bars at the moment.
I have managed to take some slack out of the front end, adjust the steering box, reassemble and take for a run.
It's livable, just. More like a 1949 MGTC than a bug.
At present getting prices for new sway bar and shockers, plus an exhaust system (badly needed).
Tried classic vee dub, but their phone is always engaged or out of order and they do not reply to emails?
Ken
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