| [ Total Views: 1221 | Total Replies: 20 | Thread Id: 106523 ] |
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 baja burley
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| posted on July 3rd, 2014 at 10:40 PM |
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Mid Engine Bug???
Has anyone seen, heard, researched a mid engine bug in Aus?? I have been looking into beefing up a vw trans but its very expensive to gain only
average strength in the grand scheme of things... Just really poking the question out there..'
What factory transaxle and Engine setup could be used? Turboed 4 cylinder preferably.
Lets brainstorm!
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vlad01
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 09:23 AM |
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mid engine. ideally a suby box from Todd without reverse R&P, just using standard suby one.
otherwise a 914 box since they are mid engine and use t4 engine as stock. In this case I would just get a whole 914  way better car imho
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Allbones
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 09:36 AM |
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J20a's are a pretty punchy suzuki engine, The M series suzki engines are pretty baller aswell from what I have heard. 4agze would also be a
biiiiggggg yes if you were wanting to go that option. All engines are from front wheel drive cars. You could even look into Excels, the 1.5l engines
(not the 1.8L) are meant to be pretty reliable and you can work them easily, plus they cost like $200 to buy complete.
I dont see how you are possibly going to build a mid engined bug for under $5000 though. That's around what I believe it would cost for a reliable
gear box. Not to mention that you would probably be up for another $5000 in engineering cost to keep it on the road, and the headaches involved in
working everything out and making it all custom. It will add up verrrrry quickly.
What power are you wanting to achieve? how much are you wanting to spend? What application is it for? (Offroad, strip, circuit?)
There are shitloads of options out there. There are rancho boxes (some will advise against, other have no problems with) There is also Dave Butler
down the gold coast, the dude is the king of reliability in VW gearboxes from what I can gather. There is also Subaru Gears who offer Subaru
transaxles for VW applications.
Then you get into engines. $5000 will get you a balls-to-the-wall VW engine. The same money would also get you an STI engine from a WRX (Simple tune
and you are around 300hp...  ).
You also have to think about brakes, rollcage, seats, harnesses etc etc as soon as you start cracking the 100rwhp range.
You can go stupid fast reliably in a beetle so easily already, why reinvent the wheel? haha.
This is just my 2c, i'm sure many of the elders will correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, Allbones.
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Allbones
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 09:38 AM |
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Just to get your tounge wagging, here is a mexican mid engine build using an Audi V8. It's a track car and there isnt much VW left, but its amazing
none the less.
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12942
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vwo60
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 10:04 AM |
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This would be a ICV, this would entail using the current ADR approved engine plus conform the any other engineering rules that would apply, i did the
exercise but the cost would be prohibitive, i stopped because i could not use a type one engine, this was the sole reason why i did not build the car.
can be done with deep pockets if you want it to legal and safe.
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baja burley
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 03:01 PM |
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Its for an offroad racer, rego is optional. I can do rollcage and all mounts and fabwork. I am returning from the 4x4 rockcrawling comp world and
wanting to go fast off road I would be looking at 250hp PLUS. WRX
engine is looking the goods, or SR20 or 4age with a blowdryer on the side.. What needs to be done to an IRS box to handle 300hp? surely the little
clutch and diff cant handle that reliably.
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vwo60
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 07:14 PM |
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Forget the IRS box and go subaru, should of said it was for offroad only, the sky is the limit.
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hellbugged
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 09:14 PM |
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http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91455&page=1
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modnrod
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| posted on July 4th, 2014 at 09:43 PM |
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Evo.
Done.
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baja burley
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| posted on July 5th, 2014 at 10:37 AM |
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A subi box obviously needs some work done to make it drive in the right direction (using it with rear engined). Whats the comparison between building
an IRS box or a subi box to hold 300hp? ie cost, fabrication time, gearbox mods etc
excuse the noob questions, I havent touched this car in 5years!!
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Subarugears
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| posted on July 5th, 2014 at 10:46 AM |
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If you are pretty good with fabrication why not stick a Subie engine in the back, Subarugears AWD reversed 5 speed in front of it, driveshaft through
the tunnel and Subaru r160 rear diff upside down in the front of the pan? Then you can have 300hp turning 2 diffs and 4 wheels. Nobody will catch you!
Reverse ring and pinion is $1500. Use the Subie driveshafts, uprights and brakes in your chassis setup and you have great stopping power as well.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on July 5th, 2014 at 09:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by modnrod
Evo.
Done.
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 vw54
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 10:56 AM |
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Peter Keegan did a all VW based mid mounted car in the 90s
Used to race at the VW Nats Drags at Oran Park
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cnfabo
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 01:53 PM |
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Didn't john spinks run a mid engine sports sedan too??
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baja burley
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 02:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Subarugears
If you are pretty good with fabrication why not stick a Subie engine in the back, Subarugears AWD reversed 5 speed in front of it, driveshaft through
the tunnel and Subaru r160 rear diff upside down in the front of the pan? Then you can have 300hp turning 2 diffs and 4 wheels. Nobody will catch you!
Reverse ring and pinion is $1500. Use the Subie driveshafts, uprights and brakes in your chassis setup and you have great stopping power as well.
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Holy shit Thats a bit more work than I want to put into the
beast. Ive already got 4x4 toys, this one should be different. Id prefer it to be 2wd anyway.. What do you actually do the subi transaxles to make
them work? And whats one of these boxex you build worth?
Luke
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baja burley
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 02:32 PM |
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This is what Ive come from.. started as a blue farm ute.. now its 5L v8, 4 link rear suspension 16"travel per corner
 
So i want something different! I can transfer alot of my suspension knowledge over and fabrication, but the VW to Subi stuff is gonna have to come
from you guys! muchly apreciated of course
Luke
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Subarugears
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 02:42 PM |
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Wow Luke, that's some awesome stuff.
If you want pricing and details on Subie stuff, check out http://www.subarugears.com
It's all explained there in great depth, plus take a look at build updates and videos on our Facebook page and youtube channel.
Some nice 300hp at the wheels 2wd VW's going around.
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waveman1500
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 04:49 PM |
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If you're making it mid engined, there's no reason to use the stock VW layout. Just chop the whole back of the car out, make some strut towers and
install any FWD engine combination of your choice. You could use a Magna V6, they are dirt cheap and go pretty hard. They're actually quite popular
in the offroad scene.
If you want to actually take it off-road racing, then you will need to look carefully at the classes and class rules. The first point to notice is
that Performance 2wd allows all engines under 6000cc in the one class, so if you want to keep up it is highly advisable to use a V8 or turbo V6.
Performance 2wd rules state that "The original engine/gearbox/final drive configuration, in relation to the body, must be retained," so your
mid-engined Beetle will probably not be allowed, depending on whether the scrutineers determine it to be close enough to the original engine location.
In fact, you won't be allowed to cut into the floorpan either, as " The original chassis and/or monocoque, including any sub-frames, must be
retained in its original location; and must remain unchanged in dimensions, plan view and silhouette." This will bump you up to the next class, which
is Extreme 2wd, meaning that you are free to build almost anything you like, as long as it is less than 6000cc and vaguely resembles a production car.
You will then be playing with the big boys in trophy trucks and similar machinery.
In my opinion, it would be far easier and better to build a buggy rather than a Beetle. In the buggy classes, there are actually lower-powered classes
such as Prolite, which is 3500cc naturally aspirated, hence the aforementioned Magna engines. I'm definitely not an expert, but have a good read of
the rules and talk to some competitors and officials before you commit to a plan.
http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/OffRoad/OR06-OffRoad-Specific-Reqs (SR)-2014-1.pdf
http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/OffRoad/OR05-OffRoad-General-Reqs (GR)-2014-1.pdf
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baja burley
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 05:43 PM |
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Yeah good info mate cheers, as with everything, a left field idea has now turned into suggestions of a ground up buggy build!! Haha gotta love boys
and our toys..
I would say Im looking to pump maybe 5K into this thing over 6-8mths max! I know if its any longer I'll lose interest again...
OK well the mid engine idea is scrapped due to classing. I have a few thoughts...
1) Drop my goal horsepower, use the IRS box adapted with a N/A scooby..... How much can I pick up an adapter for? What power will it handle with these
super diffs? What can the clutch handle? I can machine up axles to suit.
2) Keep the turbo, run a subi trans reversed, guessing thats gonna set me back about 1500-2k for motor and trans, plus 1500 for the R&P
3)Some sort of kombi box
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waveman1500
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| posted on July 6th, 2014 at 11:25 PM |
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Don't forget that even with the engine in the stock location, you will have to do a lot of re-engineering to the suspension to get a Beetle to cope
with off-road jumps!
Note that if you cut the body down into a Baja for better approach and departure angles, then that puts you straight into Extreme 2wd anyway, so at
that point you may as well carry on and put a mid-mounted engine into it.
As far as the engine power goes, I wouldn't be particularly worried about it. Getting the suspension and chassis reinforcements right is the first
priority for off-road racing, power can be upgraded once the car has successfully done a few events without breaking anything.
I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but out of your $5000 budget, I would estimate that you need the following:
$1000 worth of safety gear (absolute minimum, assuming you bought your seats used, etc. You will need two of everything, because off road cars need
room for a co-driver. A new pair of harnesses will cost $600 just for starters!)
$1000 worth of suspension
$1000 for wheels and tyres
$1000 worth of roll cage tube and other materials (?)
In this calculation, I haven't even mentioned brakes, hydraulic handbrake or any other niceties. By my calculations, you won't have the budget for
any engine or gearbox work, other than maybe an exhaust.
What is your car like to start with? Is it a Baja already? Running a stock engine and box?
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waveman1500
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| posted on July 17th, 2014 at 08:38 PM |
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Hi mate,
I hope I haven't put you off your dream!
In case you wanted some information, there are cheaper ways of going fast on dirt than just off-road racing. Here's a photo of my old 1500 Beetle
doing Khanacross at Lanac Park. This cost me very little, as the car was basically stock and Khanacross only requires a helmet, mudflaps and a 1kg
fire extinguisher bolted down inside the car. No roll cage, harnesses or other expensive gear to price you out of the competition.
What's the catch? The catch is that Khanacross is a very short track, you do approximately 5 to 7 runs throughout the day, which normally last about
1 minute and 30 seconds each.
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