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Author: Subject:  Historic Touring Car 1300cc Beetle
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posted on August 6th, 2014 at 04:00 PM
Historic Touring Car 1300cc Beetle


Just come back from a double header at Croft.

Race 1 (wet and long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF7ChAZoIv0&feature=youtu.be 

Race 2 (dry and short)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e1wbUMPMAk 
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posted on August 6th, 2014 at 05:49 PM



Great stuff, thanks for sharing
:tu::tu:




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posted on August 7th, 2014 at 09:34 AM



Thanks Ian; can't believe you had a wet track in England! :lol::lol::lol:



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posted on August 7th, 2014 at 04:11 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by sander288can't believe you had a wet track in England! :lol::lol::lol:


Every time it rains my car is fine and every time the tracks dry my car breaks!

The Beetle seems to like the wet better than most. The Minis are in the class of their own...the leading Mini was 11 seconds a lap faster than me in the wet, the fastest Mustang was only 4 seconds faster than me.

In the wet race I finished ahead of a 1500cc Anglia 105E, 1380cc Anglia 100E, a pair of 1600cc Lotus Cortinas, 1040cc Hillman Imp and a Mini Cooper....I think if race 1 had been dry at least 4 of these would have powered past me......bring on the rain!!:tu:
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posted on August 7th, 2014 at 05:41 PM



Pretty good effort, pompom.:tu:

Like you, I like the wet. This was in 1963.....I managed to beat a very quick Downton Mini that day:-

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/happydaze8/Race%20cars/ccdf1d62-957c-44e5-9fb9-caa1f0b84bdb_zpse13e83bf.jpg




I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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posted on August 8th, 2014 at 04:38 AM



I don't know about liking the wet, but in the UK you don't have a lot of choice!

I used to hate it, but now i've done a few wet races i'm starting to gain confidence. I do need to learn to use less steering lock and turn the car using nothing but the gas pedal...takes practice (and balls!) to get it right but i'll get there.

I also need to sort the gas pedal out, as I was unable to heal & toe which was why the downshifts were so poor in the wet! (you must have noticed me snatching the rear)
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posted on September 2nd, 2014 at 10:08 PM



Here's the next video offering and unbelievably...its raining!!

Oulton Park Gold Cup (2 races)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAfdyWBd9WY&list=UUcjAhwWO65zKiIzhOncRjdg 
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posted on September 4th, 2014 at 09:31 AM



Awesome; certainly had some understeer in the conditions!



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posted on September 4th, 2014 at 12:41 PM



Very cool!
Plenty of cars to avoid :starhit:




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posted on September 4th, 2014 at 04:30 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by vassy66T1
Very cool!
Plenty of cars to avoid :starhit:


It was like a traffic jam at the start of the first race....Hopefully that's the last time I start that far back.:sniffle:
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posted on September 6th, 2014 at 12:33 AM



Hi Pompom

Very great stuff!

I used to race against some classic Minis with my VW 1303. Looks like I didn't drive as good as you even I had bigger engine (92x74mm) and more sophisticated front coilover struts/IRS setup. The fast Minis could do 3 to 4 seconds per lap faster than me. My best lap was 1'44"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZ9wb6clkg 

I am planning to build my next air-cooled race car which will be a shaved weight Karmann Ghia (fibreglass front and rear ends) with 1300 or 1600cc engine. It would be great if I could learn something from you about tuning small displacement VW engine.

Tim
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posted on September 6th, 2014 at 07:41 AM



Hi Tim, love your movies. Nice to see historic racing in China with Minis, Anglias, BMWs, Alfas (and so many Beetles)

I have 7 Minis in my class (in the dry 4 are faster than me and 3 slower) I can match them on the brakes and in the corners but my biggest problem is i'm 50kg heavier so the Minis have better acceleration so they can be up to 10mph (16kph) faster on the straights.

If you build a 1300cc race engine like mine the 77mm bore is too small so you cannot fit big valves which drastically limits the power. (my regulations limit me to 1300cc) If I could go bigger I would go for a 1641, 1776 or 1915cc that revs to 7500-8000rpm

Keep in touch
Ian
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posted on September 6th, 2014 at 08:25 AM



Hi Ian. How did the porsche fan go in comparision to the electric system you ran before?



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posted on September 6th, 2014 at 09:29 PM



Hi Ian,

The movie featuring those mixed makes of cars was in Thailand (street circuit). Unfortunately historic/classic racing is still not that popular in China although other motorsports of modern cars have been developing very well.

I want to build a small engine because the race I am going to take part also has class limit. I plan to enter Class A which restricts to under 1800cc/1000kg. If the engine is 1300cc, the race car can be lightened to about 700kg. If 1600cc, the weight has to be around 880kg (about the stock weight of VW Type 1). If 1776cc or bigger, I will have to enter higher class to race against those mighty Porsches, TVRs, etc. So it might be an advantage to stay in Class A if I could tune a "high" power 1300cc engine and reduce the weight of the car as much as possible.

The heavily modified Minis are really fast. They could have 160hp with less than 650kg body weight. Your Beetle is only 50kg heavier than Mini? So it is about 700kg or so, right? Any goods advice how to lighten a Beetle? In my case, a Karmann Ghia, which I have already bought some fibreglass front/rear ends, doors and bonnets, etc. but I am not sure if it can be drastically lightened.

I also have a full race Mini with 1275cc engine which I lightened to 580kg (without driver and fuel). I personally prefer driving Beetle to Mini on race track though.

Tim
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posted on September 6th, 2014 at 11:34 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by bat69
Hi Ian. How did the porsche fan go in comparision to the electric system you ran before?


The 911 cooling has been quite a surprise. So far the oil temp is 10 degrees cooler than the old 12v cooling (but the last 4 races have been much cooler) I was expecting the 911 fan to use a lot of horsepower but if anything the car 'feels' quicker. (the old air scoops under the car are gone which should help reduce drag)

The biggest improvement has been that the rear of the car is now 20lbs lighter (didn't realize how much the scoops, air hoses, alternator brackets etc weighed) Plus the engine bay is tidyer (I can now reach the spark plugs)

Hopefully the next race at Brands Hatch will be dry, then we can finally see how quick this car really is.
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posted on September 7th, 2014 at 12:04 AM



Hi Tim,

The weight limit for my class (1151-1300cc) is 720kg (including driver) so the Minis I am up against have to add weight to get up to 720kg. The Minis have around 135-140bhp. I am currently 770kg with 126bhp so you can see my problem.

For your rules its quite a difficult decision to make. My engine has roughly 100bhp per litre so if we use 100bhp/litre as a rule:

1285cc = 128.5bhp 700kg = 1bhp/5.4kg
1584cc = 158.4bhp 880kg = 1bhp/5.5kg
1776cc = 177.6bhp 1000kg = 1bhp/5.6kg

As you can see, mathematically there isn't much in it. All three engines would result in a similar power to weight ratio. It will be easier to get 100bhp/litre out of a 1776cc than a 1285cc and by adding weight to get up to 1000kg you can place the weight where you want to balance the car. On the other hand having a 1285cc/700kg combination means that the car will be as light as possible (good for braking and handling).

All things considered the 1285cc/700kg option should be marginally quicker with better braking and the lighter weight will allow you to throw the car around a lot more.

But bare in mind that reducing weight costs money and adding weight is cheap, so a 1776cc/1000kg option would probably be cheaper.

Good luck making the choice
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posted on September 7th, 2014 at 10:43 AM



Which make shroud are you using ian
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posted on September 7th, 2014 at 06:57 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by cnfabo
Which make shroud are you using ian


I bought the CSP kit with fibreglass shroud, carbon fibre isn't allowed in historic racing (apart from helmets, fire extinguishers and the racing seat)

The fibreglass shroud is still a whole lot lighter than the old VW tin.
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posted on September 7th, 2014 at 09:57 PM



Thanks Ian. Your analysis very makes sense. I think 1584cc/880kg would be a good compromise among, bhp, weight and cost.
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posted on October 9th, 2014 at 11:06 PM



Here's the latest onboard from Brands Hatch...Fanbelt problems again...Boo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNWTt_NPWcg&list=UUcjAhwWO65zKiIzhOncRjdg 
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posted on October 10th, 2014 at 12:25 AM



Damn I love watching your vids ian...what outside air temp and oil temps you running with the new Porsche fan ??

What sort of HP,weight ,cc are those Hillman's running.....

Fabo
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posted on October 10th, 2014 at 01:51 AM



The day was around 20 degrees and the oil temp is around 110 degrees (The stock cooling and my old electic cooling were up to 120 degrees)

The Imps are putting out around 115bhp@9500rpm from a 998cc engine. They are also 100kg lighter than me.

If you notice (despite having an ATB diff) i'm spinning up my tyres out of the corners which is costing me a lot of time. The Imps are getting their power down really well.
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posted on October 10th, 2014 at 10:26 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by pompom
The day was around 20 degrees and the oil temp is around 110 degrees (The stock cooling and my old electic cooling were up to 120 degrees)

The Imps are putting out around 115bhp@9500rpm from a 998cc engine. They are also 100kg lighter than me.
That's a lot of rpm,and weight difference

If you notice (despite having an ATB diff) i'm spinning up my tyres out of the corners which is costing me a lot of time. The Imps are getting their power down really well.

I actually thought I did see inside wheel spin.when I first made my adjustable sway bars I was getting spin also then I tightened them up and that went away
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posted on October 10th, 2014 at 05:48 PM



Since removing the front anti-roll bar the front end grip is great, but the car obviously rolls more. The downward travel of the rear suspension is limited by the Z-bar so it will not go into positive camber.

For a quick fix I have two choices I guess...I can put a stock anti roll bar on the front which will be soft but control the body roll, or lengthen the Z-bar rods to allow more downward travel at the back to stop the rear wheels lifting...or both!

I'll have a dabble at the next race at Silverstone in a weeks time.
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posted on October 10th, 2014 at 11:18 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by pompom
Since removing the front anti-roll bar the front end grip is great, but the car obviously rolls more. The downward travel of the rear suspension is limited by the Z-bar so it will not go into positive camber.

For a quick fix I have two choices I guess...I can put a stock anti roll bar on the front which will be soft but control the body roll, or lengthen the Z-bar rods to allow more downward travel at the back to stop the rear wheels lifting...or both!

I'll have a dabble at the next race at Silverstone in a weeks time.


Good luck Ian,can't wait for more bids..oh,are you going to have a punt at some hillclimb in the future...
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posted on October 11th, 2014 at 02:00 AM



I've never considered hillclimbing or sprints but I will be doing more drags and I'll be entering the UK version of bonneville next year to set a top speed record for a 1300cc.
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posted on October 11th, 2014 at 06:12 PM



Top stuff. I love this car. What sort of problems you having with the fan/belt?? Is the fan coming off with the Porsche fan? I found I had to reduce my pulley a fair amount to get the fan/pulley ratio right with the amount of revs I do.



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posted on October 13th, 2014 at 06:10 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by bat69
Top stuff. I love this car. What sort of problems you having with the fan/belt?? Is the fan coming off with the Porsche fan? I found I had to reduce my pulley a fair amount to get the fan/pulley ratio right with the amount of revs I do.


Yep...The belts supplied with the 911 kit weren't very good, so i'm trying some new belts at Silverstone next weekend. I think in the future i'll be running a smaller bottom pulley. The Hillman Imps that I'm up against use are revving to 9500rpm and use deep pulleys as they had similar problems losing belts.
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posted on October 13th, 2014 at 07:22 PM



I use a 102mm bottom pully to get it to work effectively on my bug with a top end rpm of 8000



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posted on October 13th, 2014 at 10:54 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by bat69
I use a 102mm bottom pully to get it to work effectively on my bug with a top end rpm of 8000


As these 911 cooling kits are mostly used on 2000-2500cc motors I'm sure I can get away with under-driving the fan on my 1300.....I have a 136mm (dry sump sized) bottom pulley which i'll experiment with next season.
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