| [ Total Views: 813 | Total Replies: 19 | Thread Id: 107819 ] |
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 blompod
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| posted on December 4th, 2014 at 07:14 PM |
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When you hit a large bump in the road
and your bug shoots to the right, what does that mean? not all the time only when its a pretty big bump which is pretty often on these goat track
roads here in Queensland.
"ladies and gentlemen we'll be landing in Brisbane very shortly please make sure you remember to wind your watches back 30 years"
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nils
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| posted on December 4th, 2014 at 09:25 PM |
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Going to need a bit more info on your front end there. Could be worn parts or combination of part,set up as a whole, misalignment. Way to many
variables.
Quit calling rust patina
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psimitar
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| posted on December 4th, 2014 at 09:27 PM |
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Love the analogy for QLD. Funny cos it's so true 
Anyhow, as to your problem. Does the car drift badly to right if you let go of the steer wheel? And have you checked all the tie rod, ball joints or
LP/KP's for wear lately. Does the steer box have quite a bit of play in it?
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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blompod
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| posted on December 4th, 2014 at 10:37 PM |
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the front end is new, all new tierod ends etc. It had a wheel alignment done recently. The steering box looks new too, but it does have some play in
it. Ive tried to adjust it out but it seems to have stiffened the steering but not reduce the play. I noticed heaps of play at near to full lock too.
Lots of liquid grease in there so that cool.
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karmann141
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| posted on December 4th, 2014 at 10:47 PM |
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It's whats known as BUMP STEER - a characteristic of the VW front suspension and tends to be accentuated when you narrow the beam.
1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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psimitar
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 12:57 AM |
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How sloppy is the steering damper as this was VW's attempt at reducing vibrations and what not thru the steering wheel.
Steer box play is normally worse at the dead ahead position and not at full lock but most peps only know how to use the screw on the top of the box
and not how to remove play from the worm drive bearings.
From memory the steer wheel shouldn't have more than 20mm of rotational play in it before the pitman arm moves, or if all the tie rods/BJs etc are in
good nick the roadwheels move. More than that and the box needs adjusting and if after adjusting is still excessive then the box is worn out.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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HappyDaze
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 06:48 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by karmann141
It's whats known as BUMP STEER - a characteristic of the VW front suspension and tends to be accentuated when you narrow the beam.
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You've got it in one.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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 matberry
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 09:23 AM |
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Um, the VW front end doesn't have bump steer, unless it's set up badly, the swing axle rear on the other hand has plenty......
It depends on so many things, set-up, worn/poor quality components, shocks, rear suspension bushes, misaligned rear end, cracked chassis......an
endless list really).
I can only suggest taking your car to a GOOD VW specialist.
Where are you located?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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karmann141
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 11:29 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Um, the VW front end doesn't have bump steer, unless it's set up badly, the swing axle rear on the other hand has plenty......
It depends on so many things, set-up, worn/poor quality components, shocks, rear suspension bushes, misaligned rear end, cracked chassis......an
endless list really).
I can only suggest taking your car to a GOOD VW specialist.
Where are you located?
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I must disagree with you there Matt - a vw torsion bar front suspension has bump steer in it's inherent design.
For those that don't know - the front wheels don't move straight up and down when you hit a bump, but move up and down in an arc. When you hit a
bump, especially a big one on the front right, as the wheel moves up, it will toe out because of the short tie rod on the driver's side making the
car want to change direction - that's Bump Steer.
The swing axle rear does not have bump steer but suffers from camber change when hitting a bump and jackng force - but that's another story.
Be very wary of socalled VW specialists - half of them don't have a clue. I've seen a vw specialist charge a client thousands $ to change all ball
joints, tie rods and do an alignment - and not change a perished / torn steering coupling.
1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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modnrod
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 11:37 AM |
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I've never had a Beetle jump to the right.
Occasionally a step to the left.........
I'm with Matt, a big scary change of direction shouldn't be there.
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ragged
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 12:04 PM |
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Any car that "shoots to the right" when you hit a big bump in the road has something wrong with it. I would suggest you have an expert have a look
at it before you end up in front of a truck heading in the other direction.
Dave
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karmann141
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 12:17 PM |
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There's obviously something wrong with the front suspension / steering.
Most VW drivers will never experience bump steer - but it's there, it's inbuilt in the design.
If suspension components are damaged or worn - it may accentuate bump steer which is exactly what blompod is describing.
Modifying the suspension - narrowing beam, wider wheels, changing susp travel etc will all affect bump steer. Generally the further you get away from
a standard setup.
1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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blompod
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 12:27 PM |
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thanks for the imput, yeah true, its probably more a priority than at this stage all the other stuff I want to do the the car. Safety first, I'll
drop into Custom Vdub. Top bloke and seems to know his Vdub shit
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matberry
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 02:57 PM |
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Bump steer is not there in the std suspension. Yes you can position components incorrectly and end up having bump steer but it is not inherent in the
design. Many offroaders increase suspension travel and with a well engineered system NO bumpsteer is the aim and definately achievable. The arc of the
trailing arms still has a sweet spot where there is zero toe change.
The swinger rear changes camber AND toe through it's suspension travel, it is inherent in the design. Hence the swing axle steering in the back
during a bump, believe me I have experienced this.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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HappyDaze
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 03:45 PM |
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Sorry to dis-agree,Matt, but is is possible to have quite serious bump steer at the front...particularly on the R/H side. This is due to the short tie
rod 'arc' moving the steering arm in and out, while the wheel moves up and down [and not in and out]. Hope that is not too confusing.
It is possible to improve bump steer at the front [but not eliminate it] with equal-length tie rods, as I have done on No.8 Beetle. The mods I have
done on the swing-axle rear have reduced the rear bump steer to around 1mm. These changes make the car much more 'driveable', particularly with the
wider tyres.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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matberry
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 03:55 PM |
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I bow to your superior knowledge folks, there is some bump steer in the short tie rod side, aparently. Thanks for setting it straight Greg
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vlad01
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| posted on December 5th, 2014 at 07:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Bump steer is not there in the std suspension. Yes you can position components incorrectly and end up having bump steer but it is not inherent in the
design. Many offroaders increase suspension travel and with a well engineered system NO bumpsteer is the aim and definately achievable. The arc of the
trailing arms still has a sweet spot where there is zero toe change.
The swinger rear changes camber AND toe through it's suspension travel, it is inherent in the design. Hence the swing axle steering in the back
during a bump, believe me I have experienced this.
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correct! the rear does have bump steer on SA as it does change toe dramatically when traveling up and down. This was very obvious when I dealt with a
vw buggy I rebuilt at 16. Was trying to set up the rear but was frustrating as it changed depending on the small changes in ride height. stupid SA
grrr!
There is some of this on IRS but its very tiny and not noticeable at all.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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nils
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| posted on December 6th, 2014 at 09:26 AM |
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Ok... I feel I have to jump in.
Karmann - most suspension systems travel in arcs and have bump steer in them, the beetle just suspension travels in a FORE and AFT arc instead of
inboard-outboard like most cars. It is no harder to limit the bumpsteer, the key is only find the center point of the arc that it is traveling in. In
fact if a cars front suspension did go straight up and down the bumpsteer would be HUGE!
HappyDaze - You are correct the short steering rod has more bump steer, though standard suspension travel the standard system has 0.5mm on the long
rod and 0.8mm on the short. Narrowing will make this alittle worse, but limiting the suspension travel should bring it under control.
Matt - As I just stated, the standard vw does have more than zero
Blompod - once again, I would like a bit more info. is your car lowered much? how big are your tyres? link pin or ball joint?
IF you are positive about the condition of the parts in your front end and KNOW that your front end alignment was done correctly (if it is a link pin
front end I doubt this) have a VERY good look at your steering box attachment to the beam.
- Make sure that it is bolted on tight.
- Make sure the pressed metal section that holds it on is not damaged
- Make sure the 2 metal tags welded to the beam to locate the pressed metal section are there, are they lined up correctly? there should be no wear
and wear between them.
- If you have a very early model, I am not sure that they even had the locating tags? Somebody else may want to jump in with this info
- Make sure the pitman arm is bolted on and there is no play or flogging of the splines.
- Make sure all your 4 beam bolts are there and tight (don't laugh)
- Inspect your frame head for damage or bends. Again check the captive nuts at the other end of the beam bolts, is there cracking around them?
What I am trying to say is that your car should not do this, unless it is pretty seriously modified and something has been overlooked
Quit calling rust patina
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HappyDaze
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| posted on December 6th, 2014 at 10:20 AM |
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Even if, under perfect conditions, you had 0.8mm at the R/H outer tie-rod end...it would mean an actul 4.2mm at the R/H tyre.
As you say nils, virtually any modifications will make this worse.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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nils
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| posted on December 6th, 2014 at 11:07 AM |
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That's right, by the time you get to the outside edges of the tyre you are talking about 4mm difference between the front and back of the tyre
(depends a little on your tyre size)
But don't be alarmist about that, that is only if you are using the whole of the suspension travel in one fowl swoop. One more thing I would like to
add about that measurement, this is all modelled without taking into account any clearances for moving parts. Every ball joint/bush and bearing needs
some clearance to move and before it gets from your tyre (hell, the rubber tyre and massive side wall is taking some of that movement) to your
steering wheel any movement is filling up those clearances. Of course if your parts are worn out, this changes thing considerably. A well put together
beetle should not drive badly nor dangerously.
I'm assuming blompod is talking about "normal'' road pot holes, what ever normal is? If everything else is correct, my money would still be on
incorrect position of the pitman arm. Also blompod ask at what point your wheel alignment was done? If your car just came off jacks or had not fuel or
spare tyre in the front while being aligned, the toe will be very different than say with spare and a full tank and yourself and the missus and
luggage. well you see where I am headed.
good luck with it
Quit calling rust patina
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