| [ Total Views: 977 | Total Replies: 26 | Thread Id: 110059 ] |
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 DDWR450F
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| posted on November 4th, 2015 at 10:20 AM |
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MSD Ignition Install
Hi guys
Ive ordered a MSD Digital 6AL Control unit for my buggy to hopefully sort out the low rev hesitation & fouling plugs.
I have been told by CB Performance to go off the instructions for a Petronix distributor & coil. The engine has a Magnaspark ignition set up on it
at the moment.
Question is how hard are these to install??
Cheers
Dan
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on November 4th, 2015 at 03:34 PM |
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Hi
I flitted one to my sons bug a few years ago, no big hassles, just keep it dry.
Steve
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vduboy
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| posted on November 4th, 2015 at 06:31 PM |
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Hey Dan fouling plugs is usually a jetting issue too mate, in bike world running too high a octane that the motor isn't built for can also make plug
fouling more apparent. Generally high output ignition systems are just masking that actual problem, not there aren't massive benefits like throwing
the points in the bin! 
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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psimitar
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| posted on November 4th, 2015 at 06:48 PM |
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Hessitation makes me think you're using a 009 dizzy and plug fouling is either rich fuel mixture or incorrect fuel octane for the compression ratio
being run.
I would figure these things out first before fitting the MSD unit. If you are using a 009 then the programmable ignition advance MSD model would have
been the better option than just the high output version. 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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modnrod
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| posted on November 4th, 2015 at 08:04 PM |
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If you have a big fat spark you can make the car run on kero and camel piss, it'll still fire well! Best mod in the world.
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 5th, 2015 at 07:24 PM |
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Thanks guys, at the moment its running a Magnaspark ignithion kit on the engine, it has been dyno'd twice, once in Rods Dyno chassis and once in
my
buggy. Problem is when it gets on the road it has a hesitation when you put your foot down, this has been there since day 1, hence the second time it
was dyno'd in my buggy. I believe that the
jetting is right hence the reason we've opted to try out the MSD Ignition kit.
The hesitation is when you put your foot down in either first or second gear around 2000rpm it coughs and sputters and then goes like a scalded cat!!!
Cheers
Dan
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psimitar
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| posted on November 5th, 2015 at 11:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DDWR450F
Thanks guys, at the moment its running a Magnaspark ignithion kit on the engine, it has been dyno'd twice, once in Rods Dyno chassis and once in
my
buggy. Problem is when it gets on the road it has a hesitation when you put your foot down, this has been there since day 1, hence the second time it
was dyno'd in my buggy. I believe that the
jetting is right hence the reason we've opted to try out the MSD Ignition kit.
The hesitation is when you put your foot down in either first or second gear around 2000rpm it coughs and sputters and then goes like a scalded cat!!!
Cheers
Dan
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What dizzy are you running and what carbs?
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 6th, 2015 at 06:57 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by DDWR450F
Thanks guys, at the moment its running a Magnaspark ignithion kit on the engine, it has been dyno'd twice, once in Rods Dyno chassis and once in
my
buggy. Problem is when it gets on the road it has a hesitation when you put your foot down, this has been there since day 1, hence the second time it
was dyno'd in my buggy. I believe that the
jetting is right hence the reason we've opted to try out the MSD Ignition kit.
The hesitation is when you put your foot down in either first or second gear around 2000rpm it coughs and sputters and then goes like a scalded cat!!!
Cheers
Dan
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What dizzy are you running and what carbs?
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Its running a Magnaspark Distributor and i think 48mm Carbs.
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psimitar
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| posted on November 6th, 2015 at 11:28 PM |
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I think it's be worthwhile trying an OE vac or SVDA dizzy connected to one of the carbs vac ports to see if that cures the flatspot.
Flatspots are either incorrect fuelling or a timing issue but as you say it's when you floor it then that to me says ignition advance problem which
with a mech only dizzy can never be solved unless you go fully mapped ignition.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 06:36 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
I think it's be worthwhile trying an OE vac or SVDA dizzy connected to one of the carbs vac ports to see if that cures the flatspot.
Flatspots are either incorrect fuelling or a timing issue but as you say it's when you floor it then that to me says ignition advance problem which
with a mech only dizzy can never be solved unless you go fully mapped ignition.
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Thanks for your help, the hesitation is in every day driving it's very frustrating. If I keep the revs above 2500rpm it's fine, but on the street
that's not always possible. I'll put this MSD ignition on now I have it & see how it goes.
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vduboy
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 08:11 AM |
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It's funny how the 009 is always a issue with people, I have had one on my 1916 for about 50,000ks and have never had a issue, granted it was a
proper Bosch one, wondering if people are using Chinese ones? Actually I even put one of the el cheapos in the 1600 sp I built for my old car, (so I
could keep the 1916) anyway let us know what fixes it for you dan, I hate finding the fault of flat spots can be a big stuff around, have you asked
Rod for some help?
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 11:54 AM |
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Yeah mate Rods been great, we thought it was right as it performed great on the Dyno but when I got home &
drive it the hesitation was still there. It's hard because it costs me a day every time I need to take it back down to Rod.
Who in Newcastle could I take it to to have it tuned?
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 12:15 PM |
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Ive just noticed that the Distributor cap spun slightly when I was cleaning the engine, could some one tell me
what timing I should be running until I can get hold of Rod.
Cheers
Dan
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vduboy
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 02:26 PM |
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1432 bud, it should be cast into your alternator stand if it's a genuine one, yeah I can imagine it would've been a pain.
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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fish26
A.k.a.: benito
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 04:41 PM |
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Do you have a timing light? What is the jetting and venturi size, pump jet, emulsion tubes etc. valve size?
Dyno does nothing for off idle and transition between idle jet to 2500rpm and main jet (2500-4500).
Roughly 7.5 btdc static, all in 28-32 with timing light.
Please post a photo of the fouled spark plug.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 08:24 PM |
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cheers Vduboy sorry mate I was after a timing setting not firing order.
Fish26 yes I have a timing light but I can't get hold of Rod (think he's away racing)
to find out what that had the timing set at.
The hesitation I had was always around 2000-2300rpm generally when changing gears 1st-2nd when the revs dropped. Get the revs over 2500rpm & it
goes like a scalded cat!! Unfortunately just driving around i can't always keep the revs above 2500rpm.
Even the other day I put the foot down in first gear & it just coughed spluttered & then it wants to go.
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 08:27 PM |
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Fish26 sorry I didn't take note of what jetting we ended up going with when it was dyno'd, I'll set
the timing in the morning & see how it goes, thanks for your help
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vduboy
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| posted on November 7th, 2015 at 09:31 PM |
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Sorry mate I misread..  I'd be starting off somewhere between
7.5 and 10 btdc, but like fish said should be all advanced by 3000 I think.. The other thing to check for is the size of the leak jets in the bottom
off the bowl, I put zeros in mine so all the pumps fuel gets squirted when you put your foot down, stops the lean bog you might be experiencing. I
just used some 6x1.0mm grub screws loctited in. See if you can get the carby details even just for curiosities sake..
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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psimitar
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| posted on November 8th, 2015 at 01:25 AM |
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Jetting increases can lessen the issue or in some cases cure the problem but if using a dyno you have to load the dyno to simulate road conditions and
not just do a power run as the fuelling is very different between a power run and street driving.
Another option is getting hold of an AFR meter and welding a Lambda sensor boss into the exhaust manifold so you can drive the vehicle on the street
and see if the AFR drops badly below 14.7 around the point the flatspot occurs.
AFR will then tell you if lean or rich. I'd say rich which is either jetting related or just unburnt fuel due to incorrect ignition advance.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 8th, 2015 at 09:05 AM |
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Thanks guys, I'll speak with Rod when he's finished racing & see what we can come up with, I may head back down to
Southern Motor Works again as Jason was great to deal with & have him tune it for street driving.
Cheers guys
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 8th, 2015 at 10:22 AM |
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Set the timing to 7 btdc sounds good in shed, drive out shed..... Snap accelerator cable
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 8th, 2015 at 02:52 PM |
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Cheers Hellbugged, the problem I'm having now is a different problem to my original hesitation below 2300rpm. Since accidentally moved the
distributor cap, I'm struggling to get it back to how it was running before I put the MSD control box on.
I've just done a few test runs,
But it's still not running right, I'm about to give it a test run at 30* btdc. Probably best for me to just wait to speak with Rod and see what it
should be set at, after this run I will wait to speak with him.
Thanks for everyone's help 
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RodPenrose
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| posted on November 9th, 2015 at 07:59 AM |
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Sorry
Hi Dan ,
Sorry I was out of touch all weekend , away racing .
The timing settings should be on your dyno report and would either be one of the following ,
15 degrees static and 32 degrees total , or
17 degrees static and 34 degrees total .
The Magnaspark distributor is set @ 17 degrees advance and it should be set up to have full advance @ about 2300 rpm's .
Use these settings to try out the control box to see if makes a difference .
The MSD instructions will tell you to increase the spark plug gap to about .045" - .050" as the sparks are more powerful due to the system being a
CDI .
The MSD will fire the plugs 4 times every time instead of the single spark , however this will only happen up until 3000 rpm's as there isnt enough
time to multiple spark after 3000 rpm's .
This may solve the mystery fouling of the plugs by burning more of the fuel in the combustion chamber at low revs .
I suspect that we may have to decrease the venturi size if you are not going to rev it harder .
By decreasing the venturi size we will create more air speed through the carbs and the engine will be nicer to drive down low , however the downside
is that you will also loose the top end performance and some power .
I also find it quite amusing to read all of the comments on here from all of the good engine building people and tuners as to what your issues could
be , If you need me please call ,
More boost + More fuel = More power
1968 Beetle fastest run 8.96 sec @ 161 mph 4th Nov. 2001
2010 New Beetle 8.12 sec on 8th march 2014
http://www.rodpenroseracing.com.au
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fish26
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| posted on November 9th, 2015 at 11:32 AM |
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i'm sure the guys were just trying to help and you know me, i'm no engine builder or tuning guru just can't resist throwing my 2 cents in, since he
moved the cap my instruction was roughly 7.5 btdc static so he can at least get it started and time it with a light. It's hard to give information
without knowing the full combo and i apologise Dan if i gave you the wrong info.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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DDWR450F
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| posted on November 15th, 2015 at 07:53 PM |
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Hi guys
I really appreciate everyone's help as I wasn't sure where to start when I realised the distributor was loose. Ive
found out that my MSD ignition install was correct, but even after I'd caught up with Rod on Monday and timed
it correctly it was not running right.
Long story short, recently my buggy was caught out in a torrential hail storm (the day before I installed MSD).
On Monday after double checking everything I checked my fuel.......... Both fuel filters were half full of water!!
Water must be getting in up near the filler cap, I've drained the tank, pulled both the Carbs off & stripped down to
remove all the water from the bowls.
Buggy runs sweet now & the MSD Ignition Control box has certainly made the hesitation around 2200rpm
better.
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vduboy
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| posted on November 15th, 2015 at 08:00 PM |
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Funny you should say that mine got turned into a submarine at work the other day, filled up #3 and #4 with water, had to de drown it at work so I
could go home! Can't wait to make a proper airbox for it.. Awesome news you found a problem, what is your next port of call to sort out the
hesitation?
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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psimitar
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| posted on November 15th, 2015 at 09:14 PM |
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So as suspected the MSD is just helping to mask an underlying problem. I'm glad it worked for you but we're back to the same train of thoughts for
fault diagnosis.
Either too rich, possibly lean, fuel mixture or incorrect ignition advance.
Maybe check out the old Ford EDIS system, Electronic Distributorless Ignition System. I've seen it used to good effect on not just VW's. 009 dizzy
was never a good choice for the VW lump IMO
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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